Digital BW, The Print

Alan, Use the MIS VM inkset with media streets enhanced black for the
black ink. It does NOT turn brown in 3 months of sunlight.

Anything will fade in the sun in time. Anything. Oil Paintings. Acrylic
Paintings. Watercolor Paintings. Cars. Clothes. Anything. There is no
such thing as colors that do not fade. 

We are at the cutting edge of inkjet printing now, and with MIS inks and
the right papers, we are making prints as good as they can be at the
present time. 

Put a Silver print in the sunlight for a whole summer and tell me what happens.

I don't worry about fading any more. And I'm much happier. 

I've never seen fading with any ink on any paper under normal room
lighting conditions. 

There is one exception to this. The first epson inks that came with the
first stylus pro printers, were terrible. They faded even in dark
storage, and faded badly, in about a years time. The latest epson COLOR
inks that come with the 1280 printer can last 2 months in the sunlight
with no noticeable fading.

Jerry





Alan Zinn wrote:

> 
> Bad news.  I have a MIS-FS print on EAM that has been sitting under a
> skylight with intermittent full sun for about three months. The ink has
> turned very brown. The good news is it hasn't faded, the paper still looks
> like new paper and I don't need to look for VanDyke brown inks now.
> 
> See for yourself at: http://lookaroundcam.com/colorchange.html
> 
> I think any changes at all pretty much relegates a printing method to
> inexpensive reproduction status.
> 
> It's Spring, the sun is shining even here in Michigan. I propose everyone
> cut a print in two today and place half somewhere in daylight until Memorial
> Day (May 27). We'll meet back here and compare notes.
> 
> AZ
> 
> Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
> 
> http://lookaroundcam.com/
>          or
> keyword.com lookaround
> 
> 
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At 11:06 AM 3/31/2002 -0600, you wrote:
>Alan, Use the MIS VM inkset with media streets enhanced black for the
>black ink. It does NOT turn brown in 3 months of sunlight.
>
>Anything will fade in the sun in time. Anything. Oil Paintings. Acrylic
>Paintings. Watercolor Paintings. Cars. Clothes. Anything. There is no
>such thing as colors that do not fade. 
>
>We are at the cutting edge of inkjet printing now, and with MIS inks and
>the right papers, we are making prints as good as they can be at the
>present time. 
>
>Put a Silver print in the sunlight for a whole summer and tell me what happens.
>
>I don't worry about fading any more. And I'm much happier. 
>
>I've never seen fading with any ink on any paper under normal room
>lighting conditions. 
>
>There is one exception to this. The first epson inks that came with the
>first stylus pro printers, were terrible. They faded even in dark
>storage, and faded badly, in about a years time. The latest epson COLOR
>inks that come with the 1280 printer can last 2 months in the sunlight
>with no noticeable fading.
>
>Jerry
>
>
>
>
>
>Alan Zinn wrote:
>> 
>> Bad news.  I have a MIS-FS print on EAM that has been sitting under a
>> skylight with intermittent full sun for about three months. The ink has
>> turned very brown. The good news is it hasn't faded, the paper still looks
>> like new paper and I don't need to look for VanDyke brown inks now.
>> 
>> See for yourself at: http://lookaroundcam.com/colorchange.html
>> 
>> I think any changes at all pretty much relegates a printing method to
>> inexpensive reproduction status.
>> 
>> It's Spring, the sun is shining even here in Michigan. I propose everyone
>> cut a print in two today and place half somewhere in daylight until Memorial
>> Day (May 27). We'll meet back here and compare notes.
>> 
>> AZ
>> 


But Jeeeeerrrrrryyyy - it didn't fade it just turned a loverly brown! 
Now if every print turned the same brown after a tanning bed treatment I
could handle that. Definitley will get some enhanced black though. What will
I do with my 8oz. of MIS black?  Don't answer that!


thanks,

AZ

Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

In a message dated 3/31/02 5:26:10 PM, AZinn@... writes:

<< I do with my 8oz. of MIS black?  Don't answer that!


thanks,

AZ >>

Just checking, but is that the VM black?

Thanks,

Andy Darlow

I'm thinking of guaranteeing my prints for 500 years.

Richard Wolfson

> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...] 
> 
> I don't worry about fading any more. And I'm much happier.

Your will will meet some interesting legal challenges, but what do you care? 
:-)

On Tuesday 02 Apr 2002 5:58 pm, Richard Wolfson wrote:
> I'm thinking of guaranteeing my prints for 500 years.
>
> Richard Wolfson

At 11:58 AM -0500 4/2/02, Richard Wolfson wrote:
>I'm thinking of guaranteeing my prints for 500 years.
>
>Richard Wolfson
>
>
>>  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>>
>  > I don't worry about fading any more. And I'm much happier.
>


Way to go Richard and Jerry!  I find these outlooks very enlightened. 
Gives us more time to deal with the ART of digital photography and 
the CRAFT of making digital prints.

While I am a process oriented person, I have never seen more 
technically perfect but artistically boring prints than those 
produced by most photographic engineers and scientists...with very 
few exceptions. Sometimes we all get caught up in the trap of being 
overly anal about this business. It's refreshing to see a bit of 
humor about it to give us all some perspective.

Bill


-- 

b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
http://www.billageestudio.com

Bill,

The following is meant to be neither argumentative nor a 'softball', but is
born of genuine curiosity.

What, in your view is the craft of making digital prints.  I understand the
'art' side, and to me it means an innate and learned skill of seeing the
world in a way that allows one to create photographic images that elicit an
emotional response, or tell the viewer something about the photographer's
response to what they saw.

I am less clear about what craft means except as a process and a set of
tools used to ensure the artistic intent is as clear as possible.


On 4/2/02 9:35 AM, "Bill Agee" <billagee@...> wrote:

(snip) 
> 
> I find these outlooks very enlightened.
> Gives us more time to deal with the ART of digital photography and
> the CRAFT of making digital prints.
> 
(snip)

I'm thinking about guaranteeing my prints for 3000 years --- full 
refund, no questions asked.

On Tuesday, April 2, 2002, at 09:58  AM, Richard Wolfson wrote:

> I'm thinking of guaranteeing my prints for 500 years.
>
> Richard Wolfson
>
>
>> From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>>
>> I don't worry about fading any more. And I'm much happier.
>

At 11:50 AM -0800 4/2/02, Kevin Gulstene wrote:
>Bill,
>
>The following is meant to be neither argumentative nor a 'softball', but is
>born of genuine curiosity.
>
>What, in your view is the craft of making digital prints.  I understand the
>'art' side, and to me it means an innate and learned skill of seeing the
>world in a way that allows one to create photographic images that elicit an
>emotional response, or tell the viewer something about the photographer's
>response to what they saw.
>
>I am less clear about what craft means except as a process and a set of
>tools used to ensure the artistic intent is as clear as possible.
>
>
>On 4/2/02 9:35 AM, "Bill Agee" <billagee@...> wrote:
>
>(snip)
>>
>>  I find these outlooks very enlightened.
>>  Gives us more time to deal with the ART of digital photography and
>>  the CRAFT of making digital prints.
>>
>(snip)


Kevin,

While I probably would have used slightly different words, I don't 
know if I could have explained what I meant any better than you did.

Bill
-- 

b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
http://www.billageestudio.com

>
>Bill,
>
>The reason for technical refinement is to make work easier and more
>predictable rather than a goal in itself. Production workers can't afford to
>waste time and materials so have to keep improving equipment and methods.
>Generally the person who doesn't make a living at the craft can be more
>creative and form an acceptable level of refinmnet that fits the work. It's
>the equipment freaks that drive me buggy. :-)
>
>AZ
>
>Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
>
>http://lookaroundcam.com/
>          or
>keyword.com lookaround
>

Alan, I wouldn't disagree with anything you've said.  I have 
constantly strived for technical refinement in the 22 years I have 
worked as a professional photographer. It is an absolute necessity. 
However, for the past 16 years I also taught classes, part-time, at 
some local colleges...mostly black and white but for the past three 
years, strictly digital imaging.  My observation is that there are 
two types of photographers that  come into classes.  People driven by 
the technology and the equipment and people driven by an emotional 
response and the desire to creatively find something unique in the 
world around them that they wish to share.  I describe it as sort of 
left brain and right brain approaches.  I always took it as my 
personal challenge to get the right brain crowd to clean up their act 
and learn something about the technology so they can be even more 
creative and experimental.  With the left brain crowd I attempted to 
loosen them up a bit ...trying to get them to let go of the technical 
security blankets by jumping off the cliff occasionally and trying to 
fly by the seat of their pants... letting their intuition be their 
guide.  It is obvious that I feel that a you need both aspects to be 
a good photographer/artist. As to equipment, though I certainly 
appreciate well made equipment, I also realize that some of my best 
students took photos with a 30 year old used Canon AE-1 while some of 
the people who walked into class with a Nikon F-4 or F-5 spent most 
of the class trying to figure out how to use those complex pieces of 
equipment.

Thanks for giving me a chance to add a few words to my original post.

Billl
-- 

b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
http://www.billageestudio.com

At 11:11 AM 4/2/2002 EST, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 3/31/02 5:26:10 PM, AZinn@... writes:
>
><< I do with my 8oz. of MIS black?  Don't answer that!
>
>
>thanks,
>
>AZ >>
>
>Just checking, but is that the VM black?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Andy Darlow
>

Andy,

It's FS Quad-K - same as Archival black

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

At 09:35 AM 4/2/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>At 11:58 AM -0500 4/2/02, Richard Wolfson wrote:
>>I'm thinking of guaranteeing my prints for 500 years.
>>
>>Richard Wolfson
>>
>>
>>>  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>>>
>>  > I don't worry about fading any more. And I'm much happier.
>>
>
>
>Way to go Richard and Jerry!  I find these outlooks very enlightened. 
>Gives us more time to deal with the ART of digital photography and 
>the CRAFT of making digital prints.
>
>While I am a process oriented person, I have never seen more 
>technically perfect but artistically boring prints than those 
>produced by most photographic engineers and scientists...with very 
>few exceptions. Sometimes we all get caught up in the trap of being 
>overly anal about this business. It's refreshing to see a bit of 
>humor about it to give us all some perspective.
>
>Bill
>
>
>-- 
>
>b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
>c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a
>
>billagee@...
>http://www.redsilver.com
>http://www.billageestudio.com
>

Bill,

The reason for technical refinement is to make work easier and more
predictable rather than a goal in itself. Production workers can't afford to
waste time and materials so have to keep improving equipment and methods.
Generally the person who doesn't make a living at the craft can be more
creative and form an acceptable level of refinmnet that fits the work. It's
the equipment freaks that drive me buggy. :-)

AZ

Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround

In a message dated 4/3/02 8:59:13 AM, AZinn@... writes:

<< Andy,

It's FS Quad-K - same as Archival black

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera. >>

I'm sorry to ask again, but does that mean MIS's black from the color set, VM 
black, Double Density black or some other black?  I assume from your post it 
is the VM black.

Thanks,

Andy Darlow

At 01:16 AM 4/4/2002 EST, you wrote:
>
>In a message dated 4/3/02 8:59:13 AM, AZinn@... writes:
>
><< Andy,
>
>It's FS Quad-K - same as Archival black
>
>AZ
>Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera. >>
>
>I'm sorry to ask again, but does that mean MIS's black from the color set, VM 
>black, Double Density black or some other black?  I assume from your post it 
>is the VM black.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Andy Darlow
>

Andy,
I have given you the names right off the bottle label. The FS Quad black
came with the FS quad set of inks.  The Archival black came with a set of MS
archival color inks. I have a bottle marked VM hex-4K too from the first
iteration of the VM hex set. My understanding is all are the same. 

I ordered the Generations black to try.  I wonder what differences in
formula cause fugitive color? If I could get an accelerated color change to
brown I'd be on to something. 

AZ
Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.

http://lookaroundcam.com/
         or
keyword.com lookaround