Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----

From: "Bill Morse" <willym@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>; "Julian Thomas"
<julianthomas@...>
Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 1:21 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning for print size: was Re:

> There are many
> grain -reducing techniques that, combined with this approach, I believe
> result in  prints with higher definition without increased grain.

Name them, my man, name them for Gods sake, I can't hold out much longer....

Bill,

You may be right but when I called Howtek they did not indicate that that is
the case. They publish a list of the optical resolutions for the drum
scanner. Basically, they use a combination of drum speed, step size, and
aperture size to obtain these rezolutions. Sol if what I understand they are
doing is the PMT scans at a specific dpi ie: 308dpi and the drum speed and
x-axis movements are adjusted for the physical size of the negative.

Why else would they publish such a list?

Mike


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Morse" <willym@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>; "Julian Thomas"
<julianthomas@...>
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 7:21 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning for print size: was Re: The 7... (Yadda,
Yadda)


> Mike, this has come up before, and I'm still unclear how you accomplish
both
> the below and scan at the native resolution of the scanner.  Basically, I
> think you are putting the DPI of the final print above the scan quality.
>
> If you are scanning a 4x5  to print at ~20x24 @300 DPI, you need a file
with
> pixel dimensions of ~6000x7200; therefor you need to scan the 4x5 @ ~1500
> DPI.  But you can't if you are scanning w/ native resolution only!  You
> either have to scan @ 1333 DPI or @ 2000 DPI if you want native
resolution.
> If you force the scanner to scan @ 1500 DPI, I believe it will actually
scan
> @2000 DPI and rez down from there. (I think this is actually the source of
> what you describe as scans with less apparent grain)
>
> The opposite, scanner-centric process, would be to scan at the next higher
> scanner setting than you think you'll need, i.e. 2000 DPI, yielding an
> 8000x10000 pixel file, and then print to 20x24 at ~400 DPI.  There are
many
> grain -reducing techniques that, combined with this approach, I believe
> result in  prints with higher definition without increased grain.
>
> (Are your 15 minutes up yet)  ;^)
>
> Bill Morse
> PhotoProspect
> Cambridge, MA 02139
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 12:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The 7 Truths of Digital Printing!
>
>
> > Julian,
> >
> > I scan to a final size of 20"x24" or so. That way 99% of what I print
will
> > be smaller. If I must rez up, I do so with Genuine Fractals.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The 7 Truths of Digital Printing!
> >
> >
> > > Mike, try it - I swear by it. It makes even my haulage neg. printable!
> BTW
> > > you mention scanning at  final output dpi rather than the full optical
> > res.
> > > How do you resize, or do you scan multiple copies?
> > >
> > > Julian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
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> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Mike, first I'd like to say that I am only stating my *understanding* of
these issues- that is, I think I'm right but I'd be happy to be shown
otherwise.

Howtek says they scan at a specific dpi and adjust the aperture and drum
speed accordingly. That's correct, but they're not referring to the print
DPI, rather the scan or negative dpi, correct.

Actually, it's only partially correct- that is, it only applies when you
have locked the DPI settings so that the scanner is forced to one of the
listed optical resolutions.  If you unlock the settings, the scanner will
output any DPI you want- however, as I noted, it will do so by rezzing up or
down (to be truthful, I think it rezzes down, but I'm not sure.)

Bottom line, as I said before, I think you are replacing scan resolution for
print resolution, and in the interests of lowered grain, I think you are
just getting less resolution and more interpolation.  I looked at the two
scans you posted (was it to the scan list?) and while one certainly had less
grain, what jumped out at me was that it was just much less sharp, and had
less detail overall.

It seems a shame to go through seven stages for image perfection, and then
throw away some of the information by not using the full capabilities of
your scanner.

As I said above, this is what I *think* is happening...

Bill

on 4/6/02 8:15 AM, Michael Kravit wrote:

Bill,

You may be right but when I called Howtek they did not indicate that that is
the case. They publish a list of the optical resolutions for the drum
scanner. Basically, they use a combination of drum speed, step size, and
aperture size to obtain these rezolutions. Sol if what I understand they are
doing is the PMT scans at a specific dpi ie: 308dpi and the drum speed and
x-axis movements are adjusted for the physical size of the negative.

Why else would they publish such a list?

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Morse" <willym@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>; "Julian Thomas"
<julianthomas@...>
Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 7:21 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Scanning for print size: was Re: The 7... (Yadda,
Yadda)


> Mike, this has come up before, and I'm still unclear how you accomplish
both
> the below and scan at the native resolution of the scanner.  Basically, I
> think you are putting the DPI of the final print above the scan quality.
>
> If you are scanning a 4x5  to print at ~20x24 @300 DPI, you need a file
with
> pixel dimensions of ~6000x7200; therefor you need to scan the 4x5 @ ~1500
> DPI.  But you can't if you are scanning w/ native resolution only!  You
> either have to scan @ 1333 DPI or @ 2000 DPI if you want native
resolution.
> If you force the scanner to scan @ 1500 DPI, I believe it will actually
scan
> @2000 DPI and rez down from there. (I think this is actually the source of
> what you describe as scans with less apparent grain)
>
> The opposite, scanner-centric process, would be to scan at the next higher
> scanner setting than you think you'll need, i.e. 2000 DPI, yielding an
> 8000x10000 pixel file, and then print to 20x24 at ~400 DPI.  There are
many
> grain -reducing techniques that, combined with this approach, I believe
> result in  prints with higher definition without increased grain.
>
> (Are your 15 minutes up yet)  ;^)
>
> Bill Morse
> PhotoProspect
> Cambridge, MA 02139
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Michael Kravit" <michael.kravit@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2002 12:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The 7 Truths of Digital Printing!
>
>
> > Julian,
> >
> > I scan to a final size of 20"x24" or so. That way 99% of what I print
will
> > be smaller. If I must rez up, I do so with Genuine Fractals.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Friday, April 05, 2002 2:20 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] The 7 Truths of Digital Printing!
> >
> >
> > > Mike, try it - I swear by it. It makes even my haulage neg. printable!
> BTW
> > > you mention scanning at  final output dpi rather than the full optical
> > res.
> > > How do you resize, or do you scan multiple copies?
> > >
> > > Julian
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]