Digital BW, The Print

Martin - Do I gather from the end of your last post that you are able to 
use Profiler Pro to make a profile for quad-tone printing?  I've been 
using the software to generate profiles for color printing with my 1280 
for the last month and wondered if there was a way to create a profile 
for b&w printing as well.

Thanks,
Stephen

Stephen Petegorsky
petegorsky@...
www.spphoto.com

Carolyn,

You wrote:

>... with a proper workflow it doesn't matter what
>system you run, Tyler's workflow and curves are cross platform.

Could you expand on this?  What is a "proper workflow," and do you mean
they'll work on both Mac and PC, or do they also work on other printers?

Thanks,

Paul

___________


Martin wrote:

snip
> I have posted Tyler Boley's latest updated RGB separation curves for the
> MIS-VM ink set using the Epson driver under Windows on a 1280.

Stephen,

The profile was created by printing out a 729 patch test file using the printer settings as given for use with the curves. The patches were measured with a Spectrocam photospectrometer and the data imported into Profiler Pro. Apparently Profiler Pro is about the only package that will do a profile with quad inks. I understand that there are more expensive software that will handle the task. The Profiler Pro profile is not perfect but it is still the best WYSIWYG that I have seen so far.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stephen Petegorsky 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:38 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tyler Boley's Updated MIS-VM 1280 Curves


  Martin - Do I gather from the end of your last post that you are able to 
  use Profiler Pro to make a profile for quad-tone printing?  I've been 
  using the software to generate profiles for color printing with my 1280 
  for the last month and wondered if there was a way to create a profile 
  for b&w printing as well.

  Thanks,
  Stephen

  Stephen Petegorsky
  petegorsky@...
  www.spphoto.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Daniel,

I have an 1280VmPhRgMPHW.icm file that was generated using Profiler Pro but I am not certain that the software license allows me to freely share this. I would be more than happy to but I don't want to risk getting in trouble with ColorVision. If someone has some info on this issue, let me know.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Daniel Pérez 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 9:46 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tyler Boley's Updated MIS-VM 1280 Curves


  Martin, you mention using these curves in combination
  with a matching Profiler Pro profile, but I see no
  .icm files in the zip or any mention of profiles in
  the text document.  I'm currently using Tyler's older
  08 curve and love it, but want to make sure I'm not
  missing anything for implementing these new set of
  curves.  

   Thanks again for the heads-up.

    Daniel Pérez
    -Dallas


  --- Martin Wesley <mwesley250@...> wrote:
  > These curves in combination with the matching
  > Profiler Pro profile make one of the best workflows
  > out there.
  > 
  > Martin Wesley


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Carolyn,

Thank you very much for that bit of information. I was hoping that would be the case. Since Tyler started with the Color Management portion of the Epson driver set to "No Color Adjustment", I think this may make the "black box" of the Epson driver a bit smaller and perhaps more universal. It should be noted that you lose the ability to use the Magenta slider to make fine adjustments to the print hue in this mode.

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Carolyn Frayn 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 23, 2002 11:17 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tyler Boley's Updated MIS-VM 1280 Curves


  Hi guys... 

  For those not aware of it, with a proper workflow it doesn't matter what
  system you run, Tyler's workflow and curves are cross platform.

  Carolyn


  Martin wrote:

  snip
  > I have posted Tyler Boley's latest updated RGB separation curves for the
  > MIS-VM ink set using the Epson driver under Windows on a 1280.



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Daniel,
> 
> I have an 1280VmPhRgMPHW.icm file that was generated using Profiler Pro but I am not certain that the software license allows me to freely share this. I would be more than happy to but I don't want to risk getting in trouble with ColorVision. If someone has some info on this issue, let me know.

I was alerted to the fact my name is appearing here with embarrassing frequency, so I'll chime in.
Quad profiles made for use with the Epson RGB driver are not printing profiles, you do not need them to print. They can be 
used as preview profiles, but their main benefit comes from their ability to tell us exactly what that printer/ink/paper 
combo will do, including when various edits are made. In this case it's advantage is for making the curves, that's where it is 
the most useful. It will not make curves for you, but allow you to predict more accurately what the curves are going to do. 
You still need to know the basics of quad sep curves and some idea of where you want to go with them and why.
But for those who have asked, you do not need the profile to print, it won't work for that.
Building profiles for distribution, free or otherwise, requires purchasing a special license from the software manufacturer. 
I don't have that, and as a previous beta tester for ColorVision, I would certainly be breaking a trust, as well as the law, by 
distributing profiles made from the software. Martin's license may be different, but that's mine.
Again, you don't need it to print.
Tyler

Carolyn is right. Color managed workflows, in my experience, are cross platform. You can't avoid color management any 
more, if you are working in Photoshop, you are being managed whether you like it or not so you might as well learn it. 
Actually, it's essential, but there are some pitfalls to avoid so it all works.
You must avoid letting the Epson driver inject it's problems into the mix. With quads, using separations, you want all your 
control in photoshop to be transferred to the inks without further mixing. Considering you can't get around the drivers 
injection of K ink and the removal of other inks in the process you already have problems, you don't need more. The only 
way to directly control C, M, and Y inks (until their combined percentages force K) is to stay in no color adjustment in the 
driver.
You also must have your destination space be "same as source" or there will be color managed corrections you don't need 
or want. The other issue is "Printer Color Management". C. D. Tobie, who I notice has been on this list a bit, just posted about 
it on the Colorsync list. It does different things on different platforms, and is very misunderstood. I think, on the PC, it even 
does different things with different drivers, and different versions of PS. There is a lot of info out there in the archives of 
other lists.
By making sure your source and destination spaces are clearly defined and the same, making sure PCM is out of the 
picture, driver settings are always consistent, and no color adjustment is always used in the Epson driver, results should 
be cross platform. I've produced workflows on the Mac for people on PC's without a problem. These curves for Martin's PC 
were created on a Mac.
The PCM issue needs to be addressed though, if I remember right in PS 5.x on a PC it actually had to be checked or the 
monitor profile would be used for source behind your back. Could have been the reverse, but I seem to recall it was 
opposite for the Mac.
Confused yet?
Tyler

Thank you for this explanation, Tyler. (And for your curves for that
matter - they are the only things keeping me from throwing my 1280 off
a bridge, after switching it to CIS Paul's curves spontaneously
stopped working for me - probably a bad batch of ink, I guess.)

Question 1 - does it matter what working space I choose when using
your curves? If so, which one do you recommend? I have had decent (but
different) results in both Adobe RGB and sRBG

Question 2 - How does the media setting in photoshop affect things? Is
there a way to have the curves work in 2880 dpi effectively? (Or is
this just irrelevant?)

Question 3 - I have a subtle (but irritating) problem with _every_
curve I use whereby there's a small dark band around the 70% point -
this is better with your curves than Paul's, but still a problem, any
thoughts about how I might mitigate the problem? (I am using a 1280 on
an OSX mac and your recommended settings (though perhaps the wrong
colorspace?)

Question 4 - Does the Magenta slider still affect the tone of the
print with your curves?

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "tboleyyh" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> Carolyn is right. Color managed workflows, in my experience, are
cross platform. You can't avoid color management any 
> more, if you are working in Photoshop, you are being managed whether
you like it or not so you might as well learn it. 
> Actually, it's essential, but there are some pitfalls to avoid so it
all works.
> You must avoid letting the Epson driver inject it's problems into
the mix. With quads, using separations, you want all your 
> control in photoshop to be transferred to the inks without further
mixing. Considering you can't get around the drivers 
> injection of K ink and the removal of other inks in the process you
already have problems, you don't need more. The only 
> way to directly control C, M, and Y inks (until their combined
percentages force K) is to stay in no color adjustment in the 
> driver.
> You also must have your destination space be "same as source" or
there will be color managed corrections you don't need 
> or want. The other issue is "Printer Color Management". C. D. Tobie,
who I notice has been on this list a bit, just posted about 
> it on the Colorsync list. It does different things on different
platforms, and is very misunderstood. I think, on the PC, it even 
> does different things with different drivers, and different versions
of PS. There is a lot of info out there in the archives of 
> other lists.
> By making sure your source and destination spaces are clearly
defined and the same, making sure PCM is out of the 
> picture, driver settings are always consistent, and no color
adjustment is always used in the Epson driver, results should 
> be cross platform. I've produced workflows on the Mac for people on
PC's without a problem. These curves for Martin's PC 
> were created on a Mac.
> The PCM issue needs to be addressed though, if I remember right in
PS 5.x on a PC it actually had to be checked or the 
> monitor profile would be used for source behind your back. Could
have been the reverse, but I seem to recall it was 

> opposite for the Mac.
> Confused yet?
> Tyler

Doh, I wasn't thinking - of course the magenta slider is irrelevant
since the sliders are disabled.

Still curious about the other questions tho :)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "charles_bandes" <byronbulb@y...> wrote:
...
> Question 1 - does it matter what working space I choose when using
> your curves? If so, which one do you recommend? I have had decent (but
> different) results in both Adobe RGB and sRBG
It matters, but either of those should work for these particular curves. They were made for Martin, he was using sRGB, so 
they were developed for that. Since Adobe RGB is the same gamma, and gamut is not an issue for this workflow, it should 
work the same. Just stick to an RGB space with a 2.2 gamma for these curves and all should be well.

> Question 2 - How does the media setting in photoshop affect things? Is
> there a way to have the curves work in 2880 dpi effectively? (Or is
> this just irrelevant?)
They affect things a lot. They put down different amounts of ink and ramp differently to account for the different dot gain of 
those different media. They also remove CMY and bring in K differently, so curves developed for one setting can't be 
counted on to work for others. I don't know if the curves are valid for 2880, Martin told me there was no advantage to that 
setting, and we didn't use it making the curves. Just try it if you are interested.

> Question 3 - I have a subtle (but irritating) problem with _every_
> curve I use whereby there's a small dark band around the 70% point -
> this is better with your curves than Paul's, but still a problem, any
> thoughts about how I might mitigate the problem? (I am using a 1280 on
> an OSX mac and your recommended settings (though perhaps the wrong
> colorspace?)
It sounds like all is right, including color space, so I don't know. I don't have OSX here, but I've heard there is no way to turn 
off color management, someone elses words and advice so I'm not sure what to make of that. You might try printing out of 
classic to double check. Beyond that, if no one else experiences the problem, it's specific to your printer and current ink or 
paper. Solving that would require tweaking the curves.

> Question 4 - Does the Magenta slider still affect the tone of the
> print with your curves?
you got that one already, good catch

Paul,
 
>> ... with a proper workflow it doesn't matter what
>> system you run, Tyler's workflow and curves are cross platform.
> 
> Could you expand on this?
Tyler just did a great job on that one... under his revised subject line
'cross platform issues'

>What is a "proper workflow," and do you mean
> they'll work on both Mac and PC
yes on both

>, or do they also work on other printers?
no, just different platforms, mac/PC.  As with your own curve development
each printer requires it's own curves just as they each require their own
profiles.  

Best,
Carolyn

Martin,

I never use printer color management... not for color work or BW.  It makes
sense that it is the cause of many cross platform compatibility issues... as
Tyler has just explained so well.  I like that "black box"... <g>

Carolyn


Martin wrote:

> Thank you very much for that bit of information. I was hoping that would be
> the case. Since Tyler started with the Color Management portion of the Epson
> driver set to "No Color Adjustment", I think this may make the "black box" of
> the Epson driver a bit smaller and perhaps more universal. It should be noted
> that you lose the ability to use the Magenta slider to make fine adjustments
> to the print hue in this mode.

In a message dated 4/23/02 9:31:36 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

>I have an 1280VmPhRgMPHW.icm file that was generated using Profiler Pro
>but I am not certain that the software license allows me to freely share
>this. I would be more than happy to but I don't want to risk getting in
>trouble with ColorVision. If someone has some info on this issue, let me
>know.

ColorVision's licencing does not currently allow this; in fact it expressly 
prohibits it. The only exception if by special arrangement with the company 
to either allow distribution of profiles, or building of individual profiles. 
I have the latter, and could build custom profiles for individuals for such 
inksets, as I do with full color and small gamut sets, though the usability 
of the results would be the responsibility of the printer owner... I was 
aware that such profiles were usable for *previewing* files, but the idea 
that you can use them for *converting* files for printing seems pretty 
amazing!

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

CDTobie@... wrote:

> I was aware that [ColorVision] profiles were usable for
> *previewing* [quad black] files, but the idea 
> that you can use them for *converting* files for printing 
> seems pretty amazing!

Dave, I've not checked with Tyler or Dan, but I think the magic is as
follows. At least, this is what I've done, guided in part by their
seminal postings, which I could of course have misinterpreted.

1. Build a profile for the quad (or hex) black inkset.

2. Use the profile to preview a suitable gray scale target image, like a
21 step gray ramp, Tyler's magic Z's, etc. (I've built my own, which
includes both contrast-sensing goodies and DTP-41 patches)

3. Apply partitioning curves to the target image. (it's convenient to do
this in an adjustment layer) and use the preview, and INFO pallete spot
readings though the preview, to adjust the curves.

4. When the curves seem optimized, print the target, measure what really
comes out of the printer, then iterate from step 2.

While the profile is not a perfect predictor of printed densities or L*
values, it certainly shortens curve development time, allowing one to
move somewhat in the direction of having a life. As I am currently doing
this stuff in CMYK mode, it was a breakthrough for me to discover
ProfilerPro can build CMYK profiles for my custom ink sets, and the
resulting CMYK profiles work well for the process above.

Richard Wolfson
www.rwolfson.com

David,

Thank you for clearing this up, even if it is not good news it is what I expected. I am just using the profile for onscreen viewing to get improved WYSIWYG which makes the task of printing much easier. The profile is also good enough to develop the separation curves on screen shortening this task.

Since you have a license to generate and distribute profiles, I think there would be a good bit of interest. What would it cost for a profile of MIS-VM?

Also, can you generate grayscale profiles for previewing that could be used with different inks and the Piezo driver?

Thanks,
Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: CDTobie@... 
  To: mwesley250@... ; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2002 6:49 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Tyler Boley's Updated MIS-VM 1280 Curves



  In a message dated 4/23/02 9:31:36 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

  >I have an 1280VmPhRgMPHW.icm file that was generated using Profiler Pro
  >but I am not certain that the software license allows me to freely share
  >this. I would be more than happy to but I don't want to risk getting in
  >trouble with ColorVision. If someone has some info on this issue, let me
  >know.

  ColorVision's licencing does not currently allow this; in fact it expressly 
  prohibits it. The only exception if by special arrangement with the company 
  to either allow distribution of profiles, or building of individual profiles. 
  I have the latter, and could build custom profiles for individuals for such 
  inksets, as I do with full color and small gamut sets, though the usability 
  of the results would be the responsibility of the printer owner... I was 
  aware that such profiles were usable for *previewing* files, but the idea 
  that you can use them for *converting* files for printing seems pretty 
  amazing!

  C. David Tobie
  Design Cooperative
  CDTobie@...


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 4/24/02 1:03:34 PM, mwesley250@... writes:

>Since you have a license to generate and distribute profiles, I think there
>would be a good bit of interest. What would it cost for a profile of MIS-VM?

I work as a color consultant... profile building is sometimes part of that 
process. For list members who wish to try a custom profile or two before 
getting a spectro of their own, or who are not sure they want to make that 
kind of investment, I can build profiles as a standalone process. I have been 
charging $80 each, and will continue to do so, unless the demand outstrips my 
willingness to lose money while performing rote labor. <G> There is the added 
advantage of such a profile being truely custom to your printer, setup, 
paper, and inkset, in addition to the legitimacy factor...
>
>Also, can you generate grayscale profiles for previewing that could be
>used with different inks and the Piezo driver?

For the Small Gamut inks it possible to build actual use profiles. For other 
B&W processes I would assume that it would only be possible to use them for 
preview and curve building purposes. As I suggested before, its on the end 
users head to decide if renting my services are a good idea... I make no 
guarantees for this type of bleeding edge situation.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...