Digital BW, The Print

bjornaagedk wrote:

> I have tried Lyson Quad inks for Epson 1290, and found that it
> gives a very good print on Lyson's glossy paper, a print that looks
> in the direction of  a traditional Multigrade BWprint.
> Deep blacks and everything..
> BUT - ONLY when prints are viewed in 5000 K daylight. In other
> words: Serious problems with metamerisms. In my opinion this
> is what makes the Lyson inks unusable for me.
>
Just a quick observation... The older Lyson Quad product (BG Quads) do 
suffer metamerism that can be evident on glossy papers, while matte 
papers tend to conceal the color change.  Those BG inks are an "old" 
technology inkset..

HOWEVER, apparently, the Small Gamut Quads (SG) do not suffer from the 
same metamerism..  If you need glossies, they, and possibly the Luminos 
Monokrome set, appear to be your best option -- excluding using pigment 
inks and spraying every glossy print to prevent ruboff..

I would suggest giving the Lyson SG inks a shot if you want glossy 
through matte options in a single non-metameristic inkset..

Thinking about it, what I'd like to see is a head-to-head comparison of 
the SG's and the Piezo setup... I don't own Piezo and am not about to 
buy it just to do one review..  Is one of you, particularly, perhaps 
,someone that had clog issues with Piezo, able to do such a comparison? 
I personally would love to see results comparing both -- including warm 
shifting, fading, printable media,  etc...

Given the issues with Piezo/Sundance/Cone, I haven't asked, but, I doubt 
anyone at Cone or Sundance will send me a copy of Piezo and sample inks 
for a 1270 head-to-head piece right now... (Besides, I'm swamped with 
articles and projects as it is..)

Any brave souls?

Keith
 
 




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<snip>
>
> HOWEVER, apparently, the Small Gamut Quads (SG) do not suffer from the
> same metamerism..  If you need glossies, they, and possibly the Luminos
> Monokrome set, appear to be your best option -- excluding using pigment
> inks and spraying every glossy print to prevent ruboff..
>

Not in my experience Keith. I have been sent some cool-toned samples that
shift wildly into magentas in tungsten / halogen indoor lighting. There I
was with this print I'd been told was cool wondering where the magenta had
come from, and then I remembered to go and look at it in the window-light ;)
In fairness, I have been told that the cool tones seem to show m* more than
some of the other tones... and at least one user has reported to me that
whilst the inks are still metamerising, they (Lyson and Marrutt in the UK)
have been quite clever in that the majority of image adjustments they now
provide actually result in colour shifts that are not altogether obvious or
displeasing. I can not comment from personal viewing though.

But of course, if you ask 'Does Lyson SG tone more effectively than Piezo
BW' the answer is Yes ;) I am a fan of Piezo, but that does not mean I do
not appreciate some of the strengths of the alternative systems.

> I would suggest giving the Lyson SG inks a shot if you want glossy
> through matte options in a single non-metameristic inkset..
>
> Thinking about it, what I'd like to see is a head-to-head comparison of
> the SG's and the Piezo setup... I don't own Piezo and am not about to
> buy it just to do one review..  Is one of you, particularly, perhaps
> ,someone that had clog issues with Piezo, able to do such a comparison?
> I personally would love to see results comparing both -- including warm
> shifting, fading, printable media,  etc...

Why would you be looking for someone who had a negative experience of Piezo?
Why not someone who had had a negative experience with lyson (Quads or SG's)
and then moved very successfully to Piezo? eh he he.

> Given the issues with Piezo/Sundance/Cone, I haven't asked, but, I doubt
> anyone at Cone or Sundance will send me a copy of Piezo and sample inks
> for a 1270 head-to-head piece right now... (Besides, I'm swamped with
> articles and projects as it is..)

Well, if you ask without expectation you may be surprised.. but I don't know
either way ;)
Though really, you ought to do a head-to-head on a printer that Piezo
supports <grins> That is... a 1280 or 1290 or - hey do it on the 3000 <more
grins>. But for what it's worth, my experience with testing the 1270 with
Piezo (without using 'best' mode that is most definitely not supported), was
stunning. Just wish I could take photos and scans that the printer / system
is capable of... you can tell the difference between high quality medium
format++ / drum scanning to average/good 35mm with LCD scans even at 10*8
print sizes and less.

I have also just tested the 890 with Piezo. Stunning. Not supported
officially, but stunning nevertheless. For what it's worth, my experiecen
thus far with Piezo on 890, 1290 I have found them all to be easier and
faster in 'Better' mode than in 'Best' - I sense minor alignment issues come
into play at Best that I personally have found difficult to resolve with the
alignment routines on those printers. Prints in Better have been extremely
smooth where they need to be, very sharp too with a good file, and
reasonable print speed.


>
> Any brave souls?

not me!

Disclosure: I sell Piezo BW - but you knew that, right? Like I say, just cos
I'm a fan doesn't mean I don't appreciate that other systems have their own
strengths and weaknesses.

Best regards,
nij

Nigel Rheam
MWORDS Limited   www.mwords.co.uk   Digital Fine Art

Nij wrote:

>
> <Why would you be looking for someone who had a negative experience of 
> Piezo?
> Why not someone who had had a negative experience with lyson (Quads or 
> SG's)
> and then moved very successfully to Piezo? eh he he.
>
Personally, I'd take anyone...

My assumption though was that someone who had a clog might be more 
willing to invest the time in running the Lysons through their paces, 
while they probably already had a significant time invested with the 
Piezos already..

The reality is, that the quick reviews most reviewers do never really 
explore the full strengths and weaknesses of a piece of hardware, much 
less a media or inkset..  Most often, we get a rehashing of the press 
releases in admixture with some commentary.. Those kinds of reviews are 
useful if you work for a big publishing firm who needs to get the "first 
review" on the streets..  I just find it doesn't ever come near to 
exploring issues that smack serious end users in the head...

I also should have said:

Maybe the best option would be an MIS FS, MIS VM,  Lyson SG, Piezo, 
Luminos Monokrome, and Ilford Monochrome inkset shootout...  That could 
prove interesting..  But to, in fact. do such a piece justice would also 
require a densitometer (sold mine about 10 years back) and perhaps 
Profiler Pro or a similar product..  One of the ppl with experience in 
replicating the warm shift fading might be a good person to do such a 
piece or for a loon like me to partner with..

Just thinking aloud..

[Keith]
 
 




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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Editor P.O.V. Image 
Service" <editor@p...> wrote:

> HOWEVER, apparently, the Small Gamut Quads (SG) do not 
suffer from the 
> same metamerism..  If you need glossies, they, and possibly 
the Luminos 
> Monokrome set, appear to be your best option -- 


>>
Keith, 
The inks I used was Lyson Neutral Quad Black inks.
Bjorn

bjornaagedk wrote:

>
> Keith,
> The inks I used was Lyson Neutral Quad Black inks.
> Bjorn
>
>
Yup..

The Neutral Quad Blacks do have that problem.. As I said, they are an 
older technology inkset..

I have not personally seen the same kind of metamerism in the Small 
Gamut set.. -- the newer technology inkset..

But, I am not THE authority..

Keith

In a message dated 4/25/02 9:51:24 PM, nigel@... writes:

>Not in my experience Keith. I have been sent some cool-toned samples that
>shift wildly into magentas in tungsten / halogen indoor lighting. 

Yes, in my beta testing of the Small Gamut inks, I focused on the important 
issue of neutral prints without crossovers. These were the images I checked 
for metamerism, as it should be very apparent there, where even a slight 
shift is noticable. It was not until much later when Jerry Olson (who thinks 
neutral means really, really, blue <G>) started sending me 
beyond-Oriental-Seagull-Blue prints that I started seeing significant 
metamerism in this set. But asking an inkset to remain consistant through the 
entire 2500k-9300k range from tungsten light sources to north window light is 
pretty demanding, and a bit unreasonable. 

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...