Digital BW, The Print

>On 4/27/02 10:42 PM, "Rick Schiller" <rschiller@a...> wrote:

>> Greg at InkjetGoodies felt is was ok to just go with the Lyson
>> carts.

>Lyson carts are incompatible with all other inks...not cleaning was a big
>mistake. You probably formed salt deposits in the head. You may have
>destroyed the printer...but you will definitely need to use a cleaning cart
>to try to clean out the head. You may also want to look at previous posts
>in the group on force cleaning the head with a syringe and plastic tube.
>Alternatively, you could throw out the cheap printer (that's what I would
>do) and get another and this time follow the Lyson directions about
>cleaning.

>Robert

Whoa, a trifle harsh don't you think? Not all of us can casually throw away
printers on such a whim. Salt deposits in the head?

I agree that cleaning is -highly- recommended if you change ink sets, but
this was a new printer... (just like my 1160 which is fine)

Keith Cooper

On 4/28/02 11:53 AM, "Keith Cooper" <yahoogroups@...> wrote:

> Whoa, a trifle harsh don't you think? Not all of us can casually throw away
> printers on such a whim. Salt deposits in the head?

Its a $100 printer.  By the time you buy a couple sets of cleaning
carts...and then flush...order syringes and tubing and spend three nights
trying to flush...all to find out that you fried the head...well you be the
judge.  If it was me...I'd do just as I said...buy a new one.  Now if it was
a 7000 that would be a different story...but in my opinion...you shouldn't
waste your time with Lyson inks anyway.

Robert

The lyson inks work great for me....
pmapstone

Robert-

Why the strong feelings on Lyson inks? I like MIS FSN best, but there 
are times I want to print glossy and I know of no other solution that 
does as good a job with glossy paper (no, I have no interest in 
spraying anything...).

I think there were some issues with the original Quads, but the Small 
Gamut inks are pretty painless to use and the results look great to 
me.

Now that they have finally realized that most of us will eventually 
want bulk ink, they have joined the fray and sell almost all flavors 
in bulk.

What bad news do I have waiting for me???

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 4/28/02 11:53 AM, "Keith Cooper" <yahoogroups@n...> wrote:
> 
> > Whoa, a trifle harsh don't you think? Not all of us can casually 
throw away
> > printers on such a whim. Salt deposits in the head?
> 
> Its a $100 printer.  By the time you buy a couple sets of cleaning
> carts...and then flush...order syringes and tubing and spend three 
nights
> trying to flush...all to find out that you fried the head...well 
you be the
> judge.  If it was me...I'd do just as I said...buy a new one.  Now 
if it was
> a 7000 that would be a different story...but in my opinion...you 
shouldn't

> waste your time with Lyson inks anyway.
> 
> Robert

On 4/29/02 5:53 PM, "tomoc" <TomOC@...> wrote:

> Why the strong feelings on Lyson inks?

Because, IMO they are not an archival ink set...and are being sold as one.
I also didn't consider the Epson 1270 inks a real archival option.  Perhaps
this doesn't matter to you...but I have watched too many 1270 prints
disappear before my eyes in my dark studio.

> I like MIS FSN best, but there
> are times I want to print glossy and I know of no other solution that
> does as good a job with glossy paper (no, I have no interest in
> spraying anything...).

That's a shame because the MIS FS-N is absolutely stunning on either Epson
Premium Luster or Brightcube Semi-Matte.  Spraying is easy with these
papers.  Get ready to see a silver print with a dmax of 2.2.

Robert

Robert Morrison wrote:

> On 4/29/02 5:53 PM, "tomoc" <TomOC@...> wrote:
>
> > Why the strong feelings on Lyson inks?
>
> Because, IMO they are not an archival ink set...and are being sold as one.
> I also didn't consider the Epson 1270 inks a real archival option.  


Lumping the Lyson SG's in with an EPSON inkset (th 1270/870/1280/1290 
set) that has a cyan dye so faulty that it can fade in as little as one 
day is just not right...

To be accurate, not all the Lyson inks are marketed as archival 
either... Just longer lasting than OEM inks..



[Keith]
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is the claim they make on their site:

<snip>

Furthermore, prints made with Lysonic SG ink sets will exhibit superior
light fading resistance, similar to that which can be obtained with
high-stability zero-gamut monochrome ink sets.

<end snip>

As far as I can tell they present no actual longevity data for this ink
set...but judging by the longevity data that they do present (and assuming
that these inks are made from the same technology--which I realize is a big
assumption..but they don't tell us otherwise)...they place themselves in the
"1270 class" with respect to longevity.  That makes their claim seem
ridiculous...unless by zero-gamut monochrome ink sets...they only mean their
own.

For me, a huge problem with any dye based ink set is the incredible
variability in fade across papers.  In my testing, pigment based sets are
much more stable across papers.

Robert



On 4/30/02 10:31 AM, "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
wrote:
> Robert Morrison wrote:
> 
>> On 4/29/02 5:53 PM, "tomoc" <TomOC@...> wrote:
>> 
>>> Why the strong feelings on Lyson inks?
>> 
>> Because, IMO they are not an archival ink set...and are being sold as one.
>> I also didn't consider the Epson 1270 inks a real archival option.
> 
> 
> Lumping the Lyson SG's in with an EPSON inkset (th 1270/870/1280/1290
> set) that has a cyan dye so faulty that it can fade in as little as one
> day is just not right...
> 
> To be accurate, not all the Lyson inks are marketed as archival
> either... Just longer lasting than OEM inks..
> 
> 
> 
> [Keith]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

I believe the name of this forum is the "Digital Black & White The Print. It would be my understanding that all 
inks, papers and methods are welcome here. I don't believe this was set up to be a shoot out of one ink 
against the other. These are our experiences in this new terrain, we are all learning. Thankfully we have 
multiple vendors and products so we can each find what suits us best and I for one am happy about that.

Be it dye or pigment, we all have our likes and dislikes. Five years from now we may all have a single 
agreement, but for now all players are welcome, as are all our varied opinions. 

Greg Edwards

On 4/30/02 11:18 AM, "kdidhjhu" <kdidhjhu@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> I believe the name of this forum is the "Digital Black & White The Print. It
> would be my understanding that all
> inks, papers and methods are welcome here. I don't believe this was set up to
> be a shoot out of one ink
> against the other. These are our experiences in this new terrain, we are all
> learning. Thankfully we have
> multiple vendors and products so we can each find what suits us best and I for
> one am happy about that.

Absolutely.  Just because I don't like something doesn't mean that people
can't talk about them.  I'm simply questioning why someone would use
them...and questioning the validity of the company's marketing claims.  I
think my type of challenge is incredibly useful in helping people make
decisions about what they might try.

> Be it dye or pigment, we all have our likes and dislikes. Five years from now
> we may all have a single
> agreement, but for now all players are welcome, as are all our varied
> opinions. 
> 
Given the history of photography, I find it rather unlikely that
photographers will agree on much of anything with regards to technique.  But
I think one thing will probably be the case in five years...and that's we
will probably all be using pigment...but then again you can paint "lightfast
watercolor" with acrylics...and yet their are still people that paint them
with watercolor paints with fugitive results...so perhaps there will still
be dye users in 5 years...we'll see.

Robert

> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert Morrison wrote:

> This is the claim they make on their site:
>
> <snip>
>
> Furthermore, prints made with Lysonic SG ink sets will exhibit superior
> light fading resistance, similar to that which can be obtained with
> high-stability zero-gamut monochrome ink sets.
>
> <end snip>


And?

Let's try ENGLISH...

A zero gamut monochrome inkset is not necessarily a pigment based 
inkset..  All that means is that the inkset has a single hue...

> they place themselves in the
> "1270 class" with respect to longevity. 

Where?

Who would ever place themselves in a class with inks that have 
disappearing ink as its cyan component (i.e 1270 inks)...?



> That makes their claim seem
> ridiculous...


It sure would to some extent, but I fail to see shere they say they are 
in the "1270 class"? Even their Fotonics are supposedly estimated at a 
multiple of life of the 1270 inks (exluding cyan - otherwise the 
multiples would be meaningless)..

> unless by zero-gamut monochrome ink sets...they only mean their
> own.

That is possible..

>
> For me, a huge problem with any dye based ink set is the incredible
> variability in fade across papers.  In my testing, pigment based sets are
> much more stable across papers.
>
Sure, but these are tools Robert, not total solutions...

Moderm pigments generally fade less quickly... some exhibit more 
metamerism (2000P anyone?).. But pigments don't yet work well on glossy 
media unless you feel like spraying each print..

That's why I use both..

SG in the 1280...

MIS VM in the 1270...

There is no single answer yet.. Anyone who thinks so is fooling 
themselves.. If you want all the options you run more than one inkset.. 
If not you accept whichever compromise you prefer..

Even EPSONs new "do all" 7 color printer uses different black inks for 
matte and glossy media..
[Keith]
 
 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Robert-

I didn't know people were promoting Lyson inks as archival...their 
website definitely addresses life expectancy.

I'm pretty willing to accept the 20+ life for most prints. After all, 
Kodak doesn't claim more for silver prints, do they? Same with Epson 
0EM ink for 1270...I've read that is now in the 25-35 year expectancy.

Since this is for under glass moderate light conditions and most 
prints really are not exposed to that much light, I'm willing to live 
with that...very comparable to the best wet darkroom color prints 
from all I've read. 

Mind you, this is for glossy prints only... Don't see any reason to 
use anything but FS and FSN for matte.

I respect your opinion, so I will try some premium lustre and spray 
them. I guess I just don't like the spray (sure to give you some lung 
disease) and I really don't trust ...maybe irrational but it seems as 
untested as the paper/ink dates...but mostly I just hate the spray in 
my house...but we'll see what I can make with FSN

Thanks,

tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 4/29/02 5:53 PM, "tomoc" <TomOC@s...> wrote:
> 
> > Why the strong feelings on Lyson inks?
> 
> Because, IMO they are not an archival ink set...and are being sold 
as one.
> I also didn't consider the Epson 1270 inks a real archival option.  
Perhaps
> this doesn't matter to you...but I have watched too many 1270 prints
> disappear before my eyes in my dark studio.
> 
> > I like MIS FSN best, but there
> > are times I want to print glossy and I know of no other solution 
that
> > does as good a job with glossy paper (no, I have no interest in
> > spraying anything...).
> 
> That's a shame because the MIS FS-N is absolutely stunning on 
either Epson
> Premium Luster or Brightcube Semi-Matte.  Spraying is easy with 
these

> papers.  Get ready to see a silver print with a dmax of 2.2.
> 
> Robert

On 4/30/02 11:53 AM, "tomoc" <TomOC@...> wrote:

> I respect your opinion, so I will try some premium lustre and spray
> them. I guess I just don't like the spray (sure to give you some lung
> disease) and I really don't trust ...maybe irrational but it seems as
> untested as the paper/ink dates...but mostly I just hate the spray in
> my house...but we'll see what I can make with FSN

Yep...I spray outside and I'm thinking about pulling out the
respirator...the Krylon is the best...but it does smell nasty.

Its also worth a try with the Brightcube Semi-Matte.  Its more expensive
than the luster...but I think I like the final prints more.

Robert

In a message dated 4/30/02 1:46:14 PM, rmorrison@... writes:

>Furthermore, prints made with Lysonic SG ink sets will exhibit superior
>light fading resistance, similar to that which can be obtained with
>high-stability zero-gamut monochrome ink sets.
>
><end snip>
>
>As far as I can tell they present no actual longevity data for this ink
>set..

Nor to they need to for this claim; basicly they are sayng they last like 
their Lysonic quads, which is likely to be true. You are inferring that this 
means they are comparing them to pigment quad sets which is not in their 
statement. Lysonics are very long lived for dye inks... I don't quite see the 
source of the indignation here.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

On 4/30/02 12:18 PM, "CDTobie@..." <CDTobie@...> wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 4/30/02 1:46:14 PM, rmorrison@... writes:
> 
>> Furthermore, prints made with Lysonic SG ink sets will exhibit superior
>> light fading resistance, similar to that which can be obtained with
>> high-stability zero-gamut monochrome ink sets.
>> 
>> <end snip>
>> 
>> As far as I can tell they present no actual longevity data for this ink
>> set..
> 
> Nor to they need to for this claim; basicly they are sayng they last like
> their Lysonic quads, which is likely to be true. You are inferring that this
> means they are comparing them to pigment quad sets which is not in their
> statement. Lysonics are very long lived for dye inks... I don't quite see the
> source of the indignation here.
> 
Sorry, perhaps its my misreading...but I thought they said ink set"s".  If
they had simply said:

"can be obtained with our high-stability zero-gamut monochrome ink set".

I wouldn't have had a problem.  As far as I know...and I may be
uninformed...all the other quad inks sets (which by Lyson's definition are
"zero-gamut monochrome inks") are pigment based and have far superior fading
properties.  I think this statement could be easily misleading to people
trying to learn about the relative merits of different BW printing options.

Also, I was looking at the wrong longevity data...my apologies...they claim
that their quad ink set performs much better than 1270 dyes...sorry for the
confusion.  Has anyone validated this claim by window testing...or for that
matter comparing their fade to piezo or MIS FS or VM inks directly?

Robert