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The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-21 by André Vallejo

The following post is reproduced from a message by Dan Margulis in another
web forum I join. I decided to reproduce it here 'cose even the subject has
been discussed a lot here some time ago,it looks to me like a very
enlightning about the subject ,written by someone who knows a lot about the
subject (he's the author of "Professional Photoshop-A guide to color
correction",one of the best books I've read). Sure it started a long thread
in the forum,but that's the way it has to be...He gave me his ok for
cross-posting.
Andr\ufffd




Shortly before leaving for Europe, I completed several days of work
comparing
the results of correcting 16-bit files versus performing the same edits on
8-bit files. I'll have a full discussion of what this showed in my book
later
this year and will include the files on the CD so that others can verify
what
went on. However, since there was one finding that came as a surprise and
would cause me to change workflow in some cases, I thought I would let
people
know here first.

As many of you know, there has been this ongoing debate as to whether
there's
merit in leaving files in the cumbersome 16-bit mode as long as possible on
the theory that corrections will be more accurate. There are those who have
strenuously argued that this is the only way to go, that there is a
night-and-day difference in the results, and that people who do things any
other way are rubes. None of these experts has ever shown anything other
than
a histogram to demonstrate that this is so, and my own tests have shown up
to
now no substantial difference.

I therefore issued a challenge for those who could come up with any color
photographic image where any reasonable course of events might conceivably
show an advantage for working in 16-bit as opposed to just converting
immediately to 8-bit, and said if I could verify it I would admit it and
print the results.

Naturally, none of the people who are so vehemently in favor of 16-bit
correction had any such files to show, but some list members did, and sent
them to me. Particularly, Todd Flashner allowed me the use of his scanner to
produce several high-bit images that were disastrously flat and would
presumably magnify any advantage that 16-bit might have. Ric Cohn sent over
2
gigs of images and an ungodly number of Epson proofs of images that he felt
did demonstrate that working in 8-bit caused banding and other problems.

The bottom line of all my tests was, with one important caveat that I'll get
to in a moment, there is no 16-bit advantage. I blasted these files with a
series of corrections far beyond anything real-world; I worked at gammas
ranging from 1.0 to 2.5 and in all four of the standard RGBs, I worked with
negs, positives, LAB, CMYK, RGB, Hue/Saturation, what have you. While the
results weren't identical there were scarcely any cases where there would be
detectable differences and in those one would be as likely to prefer the
8-bit version as the 16. So, I have no reservation in saying that there's no
particular point in retaining files in 16-bit, although it doesn't hurt
either.

I'll show all these results later, but the surprise was in the files that
Ric
sent, which appeared to show just the sort of damage that 8-bit editing is
supposed to cause, in an image with a dark rich blue gradient, a worst-case
scenario in conjunction with the very dark original scan, which in itself
was
an attempt to give an advantage to 16-bit editing.

Ric provided both original 8-bit and 16-bit versions of these files. Granted
that the necessary corrections were very severe, they still showed that what
he said was true: the 8-bit version banded rather badly and the 16-bit did
not. I tried several different ways of trying to get around the disadvantage
and could not do so without excessive effort.

Ric's 8-bit original, however, was generated from the 16-bit scan not by
Photoshop but rather within his own scanner software. Therefore, I tried
further tests where I applied the same extreme corrections to the image, but
this time not to Ric's 8-bit image but rather a direct Photoshop conversion
of Ric's 16-bit image to 8-bit. Shockingly, this completely eliminated the
problem. There was no reason to prefer the version corrected entirely in
16-bit.

When Photoshop converts from 16-bit to 8-bit it applies very fine noise to
try to control subsequent problems. Most scanners don't.  I would have
expected this to make a difference but not to the point that the scanner
8-bit file would completely suck and the Photoshop 8-bit file would be just
as good as the 16-bit version.  I don't know whether this is all a function
of Photoshop's superior algorithm or whether the scanner is doing something
bad. Furthermore, I don't care.  One way or another, the 8-bit scanner file
is bad and the 8-bit Photoshop file is good.

I also don't know whether other scanners would have the same problem that
Ric's appears to have, but suspect that they might.

The whole thing suggests to me that if one's scanner is capable of
generating
a 16-bit file, one should probably take it. Thereafter, whether one converts
it to 8-bit in Photoshop early or late, it doesn't seem to make a
difference.

Dan Margulis

RE: [Digital BW] The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-21 by Austin Franklin

Andre,

Read what he is discussing VERY carefully.  He is discussing COLOR, NOT B&W.
They are entirely different in the regard he is discussing.  It is fine to
use 8 bits/color for color, as you get 24 bits total (3 x 8), but for B&W,
it is not as "forgiving", and you can severely degrade the image doing tonal
manipulations in 8 bits/pixel.

Austin
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andr\ufffd Vallejo [mailto:avs@...]
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 9:15 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!
>
>
> The following post is reproduced from a message by Dan Margulis in another
> web forum I join. I decided to reproduce it here 'cose even the
> subject has
> been discussed a lot here some time ago,it looks to me like a very
> enlightning about the subject ,written by someone who knows a lot
> about the
> subject (he's the author of "Professional Photoshop-A guide to color
> correction",one of the best books I've read). Sure it started a
> long thread
> in the forum,but that's the way it has to be...He gave me his ok for
> cross-posting.
> Andr\ufffd
>
>
>
>
> Shortly before leaving for Europe, I completed several days of work
> comparing
> the results of correcting 16-bit files versus performing the same edits on
> 8-bit files. I'll have a full discussion of what this showed in my book
> later
> this year and will include the files on the CD so that others can verify
> what
> went on. However, since there was one finding that came as a surprise and
> would cause me to change workflow in some cases, I thought I would let
> people
> know here first.
>
> As many of you know, there has been this ongoing debate as to whether
> there's
> merit in leaving files in the cumbersome 16-bit mode as long as
> possible on
> the theory that corrections will be more accurate. There are
> those who have
> strenuously argued that this is the only way to go, that there is a
> night-and-day difference in the results, and that people who do things any
> other way are rubes. None of these experts has ever shown anything other
> than
> a histogram to demonstrate that this is so, and my own tests have shown up
> to
> now no substantial difference.
>
> I therefore issued a challenge for those who could come up with any color
> photographic image where any reasonable course of events might conceivably
> show an advantage for working in 16-bit as opposed to just converting
> immediately to 8-bit, and said if I could verify it I would admit it and
> print the results.
>
> Naturally, none of the people who are so vehemently in favor of 16-bit
> correction had any such files to show, but some list members did, and sent
> them to me. Particularly, Todd Flashner allowed me the use of his
> scanner to
> produce several high-bit images that were disastrously flat and would
> presumably magnify any advantage that 16-bit might have. Ric Cohn
> sent over
> 2
> gigs of images and an ungodly number of Epson proofs of images
> that he felt
> did demonstrate that working in 8-bit caused banding and other problems.
>
> The bottom line of all my tests was, with one important caveat
> that I'll get
> to in a moment, there is no 16-bit advantage. I blasted these files with a
> series of corrections far beyond anything real-world; I worked at gammas
> ranging from 1.0 to 2.5 and in all four of the standard RGBs, I
> worked with
> negs, positives, LAB, CMYK, RGB, Hue/Saturation, what have you. While the
> results weren't identical there were scarcely any cases where
> there would be
> detectable differences and in those one would be as likely to prefer the
> 8-bit version as the 16. So, I have no reservation in saying that
> there's no
> particular point in retaining files in 16-bit, although it doesn't hurt
> either.
>
> I'll show all these results later, but the surprise was in the files that
> Ric
> sent, which appeared to show just the sort of damage that 8-bit editing is

> supposed to cause, in an image with a dark rich blue gradient, a
> worst-case
> scenario in conjunction with the very dark original scan, which in itself
> was
> an attempt to give an advantage to 16-bit editing.
>
> Ric provided both original 8-bit and 16-bit versions of these
> files. Granted
> that the necessary corrections were very severe, they still
> showed that what
> he said was true: the 8-bit version banded rather badly and the 16-bit did
> not. I tried several different ways of trying to get around the
> disadvantage
> and could not do so without excessive effort.
>
> Ric's 8-bit original, however, was generated from the 16-bit scan not by
> Photoshop but rather within his own scanner software. Therefore, I tried
> further tests where I applied the same extreme corrections to the
> image, but
> this time not to Ric's 8-bit image but rather a direct Photoshop
> conversion
> of Ric's 16-bit image to 8-bit. Shockingly, this completely eliminated the
> problem. There was no reason to prefer the version corrected entirely in
> 16-bit.
>
> When Photoshop converts from 16-bit to 8-bit it applies very fine noise to
> try to control subsequent problems. Most scanners don't.  I would have
> expected this to make a difference but not to the point that the scanner
> 8-bit file would completely suck and the Photoshop 8-bit file
> would be just
> as good as the 16-bit version.  I don't know whether this is all
> a function
> of Photoshop's superior algorithm or whether the scanner is doing
> something
> bad. Furthermore, I don't care.  One way or another, the 8-bit
> scanner file
> is bad and the 8-bit Photoshop file is good.
>
> I also don't know whether other scanners would have the same problem that
> Ric's appears to have, but suspect that they might.
>
> The whole thing suggests to me that if one's scanner is capable of
> generating
> a 16-bit file, one should probably take it. Thereafter, whether
> one converts
> it to 8-bit in Photoshop early or late, it doesn't seem to make a
> difference.
>
> Dan Margulis
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-21 by Truman Prevatt

If I have a system that processes one dimensional signals ( an image is 
a two dimensional signal) I want the largest number of bits possible in 
the A/D front end. The reason is dynamic range in the capture of the 
signal. For example if I have a signal that is expected to vary between 
0 and 1 volt and I capture it with an 8 bit A/D I by quantization level 
is about 4 mvolts. Now for some reason if the signal is weak or my 
setting is wrong and the peak signal is only 8 mvolts, I only use two 
bits - hence a very poor capture of the signal. If I on the other hand 
have a 16 bit A/D I have  (or a quantization level of 15 microvolts ) 
the 8 mvolt signal is using 9 bits. Hence my capture will reproduce the 
signal in a much more robust manner. If my follow on processing only has 
8 bit resolution, however, there is no advantage in carrying this extra 
bit.

The same thing is true in imaging radar processing (a topic which I am 
quite familiar and also hold two patents). You want the maximum number 
of bits possible in the front end where the signal or image is captured 
in order to obtain a faithful reproduction of the signal. After that 
there is no advantage in maintaining dynamic range beyond the final 
output of the system. It is not surprising that it is true in optical 
images as well. There is very good reason for the digital cameras and 
scanners to have a high dynamic range, but after the image has been 
captured and is to be printed on an inkjet printer ( or printed to 
silver paper for that matter ) 8 bits should be fine.

Truman

Andr\ufffd Vallejo wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> The following post is reproduced from a message by Dan Margulis in another
> web forum I join. I decided to reproduce it here 'cose even the 
> subject has
> been discussed a lot here some time ago,it looks to me like a very
> enlightning about the subject ,written by someone who knows a lot 
> about the
> subject (he's the author of "Professional Photoshop-A guide to color
> correction",one of the best books I've read). Sure it started a long 
> thread
> in the forum,but that's the way it has to be...He gave me his ok for
> cross-posting.
> Andr\ufffd
>
>

Re: The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-21 by billy_iverson

André,
  Can you tell us the web foum where Dan Margulis's message was 
posted?  If his post is remotely representative, sounds worth joining.

Bill Iverson


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., André Vallejo <avs@p...> 
wrote:
> The following post is reproduced from a message by Dan Margulis in 
another
> web forum I join. I decided to reproduce it here 'cose even the 
subject has
> been discussed a lot here some time ago,it looks to me like a very
> enlightning about the subject ,written by someone who knows a lot 
about the
> subject (he's the author of "Professional Photoshop-A guide to color
> correction",one of the best books I've read). Sure it started a 
long thread
> in the forum,but that's the way it has to be...He gave me his ok for
> cross-posting.
> André
> 
> 
*********

Re: The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-21 by billy_iverson

André,
  Can you tell us the web foum where Dan Margulis's message was 
posted?  If his post is remotely representative, sounds worth joining.

Bill Iverson


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., André Vallejo <avs@p...> 
wrote:
> The following post is reproduced from a message by Dan Margulis in 
another
> web forum I join. I decided to reproduce it here 'cose even the 
subject has
> been discussed a lot here some time ago,it looks to me like a very
> enlightning about the subject ,written by someone who knows a lot 
about the
> subject (he's the author of "Professional Photoshop-A guide to color
> correction",one of the best books I've read). Sure it started a 
long thread
> in the forum,but that's the way it has to be...He gave me his ok for
> cross-posting.
> André
> 
> 
*********

Re: The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-21 by jrandall1149

Billy:

There is a similar thread started by Mike Russell in the 
comp.graphics.apps.photoshop newsgroup titled '16 bit challenge-100 
dollar reward'. You can access it through Google Groups.

Jeff Randall

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "billy_iverson" 
<wiverson@c...> wrote:

>   Can you tell us the web foum where Dan Margulis's message was 
> posted?  If his post is remotely representative, sounds worth 
joining.
>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-22 by Austin Franklin

> Billy:
>
> There is a similar thread started by Mike Russell in the
> comp.graphics.apps.photoshop newsgroup titled '16 bit challenge-100
> dollar reward'. You can access it through Google Groups.
>
> Jeff Randall

Did Mike specify "COLOR", like Dan does (now ;-), because if he didn't,
he'll be out the $100...

Austin

[Digital BW] Re: The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-22 by jrandall1149

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" 
<darkroom@i...> wrote:
> > Billy:
> >
> > There is a similar thread started by Mike Russell in the
> > comp.graphics.apps.photoshop newsgroup titled '16 bit challenge-
100
> > dollar reward'. You can access it through Google Groups.
> >
> > Jeff Randall
> 
> Did Mike specify "COLOR", like Dan does (now ;-), because if he 
didn't,
> he'll be out the $100...
> 
> Austin

Austin:

Agreed.  (;>))

He didn't explicitly state color in his original challenge, but I 
think it was implied.  I'm pretty sure he has now specified color.  

Jeff Randall

Re: [Digital BW] The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth reading!

2002-05-22 by tomoc

Austin-

For someone working with a digital image...is it worth converting 
from 8 bit to 16 bit for manipulation?

I do this from time to time so I can use the 16 bit Silver Oxide 
filters (you can use them in 8 bit but they are set up for 16).

With the Nikon D1's I shoot RAW and convert to 16 bit. I think it is 
very obvious that those images are better than ones converted to 8 
bit for BW. With pocket cameras that are 8 bit JPG files, I "think" I 
can see a little better quality, but have no real "proof."

What do you think?

Tom O'Connell



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Austin Franklin" 
<darkroom@i...> wrote:
> Andre,
> 
> Read what he is discussing VERY carefully.  He is discussing COLOR, 
NOT B&W.
> They are entirely different in the regard he is discussing.  It is 
fine to
> use 8 bits/color for color, as you get 24 bits total (3 x 8), but 
for B&W,
> it is not as "forgiving", and you can severely degrade the image 
doing tonal
> manipulations in 8 bits/pixel.
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: André Vallejo [mailto:avs@p...]
> > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 9:15 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> > Subject: [Digital BW] The old "8 x 16 bits" again...But worth 
reading!
> >
> >
> > The following post is reproduced from a message by Dan Margulis 
in another
> > web forum I join. I decided to reproduce it here 'cose even the
> > subject has
> > been discussed a lot here some time ago,it looks to me like a very
> > enlightning about the subject ,written by someone who knows a lot
> > about the
> > subject (he's the author of "Professional Photoshop-A guide to 
color
> > correction",one of the best books I've read). Sure it started a
> > long thread
> > in the forum,but that's the way it has to be...He gave me his ok 
for
> > cross-posting.
> > André
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Shortly before leaving for Europe, I completed several days of 
work
> > comparing
> > the results of correcting 16-bit files versus performing the same 
edits on
> > 8-bit files. I'll have a full discussion of what this showed in 
my book
> > later
> > this year and will include the files on the CD so that others can 
verify
> > what
> > went on. However, since there was one finding that came as a 
surprise and
> > would cause me to change workflow in some cases, I thought I 
would let
> > people
> > know here first.
> >
> > As many of you know, there has been this ongoing debate as to 
whether
> > there's
> > merit in leaving files in the cumbersome 16-bit mode as long as
> > possible on
> > the theory that corrections will be more accurate. There are
> > those who have
> > strenuously argued that this is the only way to go, that there is 
a
> > night-and-day difference in the results, and that people who do 
things any
> > other way are rubes. None of these experts has ever shown 
anything other
> > than
> > a histogram to demonstrate that this is so, and my own tests have 
shown up
> > to
> > now no substantial difference.
> >
> > I therefore issued a challenge for those who could come up with 
any color
> > photographic image where any reasonable course of events might 
conceivably
> > show an advantage for working in 16-bit as opposed to just 
converting
> > immediately to 8-bit, and said if I could verify it I would admit 
it and
> > print the results.
> >
> > Naturally, none of the people who are so vehemently in favor of 
16-bit
> > correction had any such files to show, but some list members did, 
and sent
> > them to me. Particularly, Todd Flashner allowed me the use of his
> > scanner to
> > produce several high-bit images that were disastrously flat and 
would
> > presumably magnify any advantage that 16-bit might have. Ric Cohn
> > sent over
> > 2
> > gigs of images and an ungodly number of Epson proofs of images
> > that he felt
> > did demonstrate that working in 8-bit caused banding and other 
problems.
> >
> > The bottom line of all my tests was, with one important caveat
> > that I'll get
> > to in a moment, there is no 16-bit advantage. I blasted these 
files with a
> > series of corrections far beyond anything real-world; I worked at 
gammas
> > ranging from 1.0 to 2.5 and in all four of the standard RGBs, I
> > worked with
> > negs, positives, LAB, CMYK, RGB, Hue/Saturation, what have you. 
While the
> > results weren't identical there were scarcely any cases where
> > there would be
> > detectable differences and in those one would be as likely to 
prefer the
> > 8-bit version as the 16. So, I have no reservation in saying that
> > there's no
> > particular point in retaining files in 16-bit, although it 
doesn't hurt
> > either.
> >
> > I'll show all these results later, but the surprise was in the 
files that
> > Ric
> > sent, which appeared to show just the sort of damage that 8-bit 
editing is
> 
> > supposed to cause, in an image with a dark rich blue gradient, a
> > worst-case
> > scenario in conjunction with the very dark original scan, which 
in itself
> > was
> > an attempt to give an advantage to 16-bit editing.
> >
> > Ric provided both original 8-bit and 16-bit versions of these
> > files. Granted
> > that the necessary corrections were very severe, they still
> > showed that what
> > he said was true: the 8-bit version banded rather badly and the 
16-bit did
> > not. I tried several different ways of trying to get around the
> > disadvantage
> > and could not do so without excessive effort.
> >
> > Ric's 8-bit original, however, was generated from the 16-bit scan 
not by
> > Photoshop but rather within his own scanner software. Therefore, 
I tried
> > further tests where I applied the same extreme corrections to the
> > image, but
> > this time not to Ric's 8-bit image but rather a direct Photoshop
> > conversion
> > of Ric's 16-bit image to 8-bit. Shockingly, this completely 
eliminated the
> > problem. There was no reason to prefer the version corrected 
entirely in
> > 16-bit.
> >
> > When Photoshop converts from 16-bit to 8-bit it applies very fine 
noise to
> > try to control subsequent problems. Most scanners don't.  I would 
have
> > expected this to make a difference but not to the point that the 
scanner
> > 8-bit file would completely suck and the Photoshop 8-bit file
> > would be just
> > as good as the 16-bit version.  I don't know whether this is all
> > a function
> > of Photoshop's superior algorithm or whether the scanner is doing
> > something
> > bad. Furthermore, I don't care.  One way or another, the 8-bit
> > scanner file
> > is bad and the 8-bit Photoshop file is good.
> >
> > I also don't know whether other scanners would have the same 
problem that
> > Ric's appears to have, but suspect that they might.
> >
> > The whole thing suggests to me that if one's scanner is capable of
> > generating
> > a 16-bit file, one should probably take it. Thereafter, whether
> > one converts
> > it to 8-bit in Photoshop early or late, it doesn't seem to make a
> > difference.
> >
> > Dan Margulis
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> > Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The 
page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> > messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject 
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> > various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

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