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Posterization - Is it always bit depth? (Long)

Posterization - Is it always bit depth? (Long)

2002-05-28 by Todd Flashner

In the "8x16 bits and BW" thread I suggested it's possible that the
posterization we sometimes see in our prints, contrary to conventional
wisdom, may NOT be from "overworking a file", "breaking an image",
"insufficient bit depth", "lost tones",  or any of the various expressions
used to suggest a problem that may occur from editing 8-bit files.

Austin has recently sent me Piezo prints for my perusal, as I am interested
in assessing that output, being the longtime Roark/MIS user I am. He has
graciously allowed me to scan and post an example that SUBTLY illustrates
the type of phenomenon I referred to. I've also encountered it in my
workflow and it has stymied me because 16-bit evidence did not help.

It's perfect this print comes from Austin because he does no 8-bit editing,
and his histograms have no gaps within their endpoints. As such, any
posterization in the image could not be due to the "lost tones" associated
with 8-bit image manipulation. Furthermore, Austin's workflow excludes some
of the other usual suspects, like interpolation, USM, or selections/masking.
If there is such a thing as Certified Organic files that's what Austin
prints from. So what we have is a nice print of a lovely image and what I
will point to is not meant as a criticism of any kind - on the contrary, I
think it may be so common that, to many of us, it goes unnoticed.

I'm posting two samples of a scan of Austin's print, one a small jpeg of the
overall photo, and the other, a TIFF detail of the area in question. The
print was scanned in grayscale mode at 300dpi on my Umax Powerlook III.

The files are in the Message Related folder for 5/02. Hopefully this link
will get you there:

<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20
Related%20Files/05_2002%20uploads/>

What I am addressing are the deep 3/4 tones along the right side of the
woman's body. They extend from her armpit to her leg, and from the the
bottom of her forearm to her hand. To my eyes the transition between tones
in those areas is harsher and more abrupt than other tones in the print, and
just have an unnatural appearance to me. I'd say the main characteristic is
an area of mostly "flat" shadow tones which are "blocky" at their perimeter.

Whatever it is, I suspect many of us experience it and refer to it as
posterization. My sense is the effect looks more prominent in print than on
screen. It's possible, but I have not measured it, that the ink color for
that ink position is "cooler" than the other inks, which causes it to stand
out against them, but since these scans originated in grayscale mode they
would not reveal that.

I'm interested to know:

A) Do these tones look "natural" to you? Am I suggesting there is a problem
where none really exists? (FWIW, Austin knew immediately what I was
referring to when I mentioned it, so if you do feel I'm making something
from nothing it's possible that it is more evident in the print than on the
monitor.)

B) If not "natural", do these tones look typical to you? IOW, do you get
them with your workflow and materials? Conventional materials, or digital
only? At what stage of the process do they appear in your work, ie, in the
neg, scan, or print?

C) Do you notice them using some materials or workflows more than others?

My suspicion is that those areas in a well printed glossy silver print would
have a much smoother feel/gradation, or a more natural placement of values.
I'm guessing that those tonal transitions are somewhat present in the
negative but are exacerbated by scanning, and then further amplified in
printing. But that's just my hunch, I'd like to hear what others think.

This print was produced with the Piezo driver using Piezo inks, by an
experienced user. The Piezo product is considered my some to be the "gold
standard" for smooth output and tonality, so how likely is it to be an
effect of that process? I don't know what profile Austin used (for what I
believe is Epson HeavyWeight Matte), but I do know his step wedges and
Tyler's Zees prints looked smooth and uniform.

One suspicion of mine is that this might be an effect off CCD scans. In the
small sampling of drum scans I've had made for my negatives (thanks Mike K)
I believe that the drum scanner handled such tones slightly better than my
Leaf. Have any of you who've used both CCD and drum scanners noticed this
occurrence more in scans from one scanner type over the other? The Leaf
scans in 14-bits, same as most drums, so I don't think it's bit depth
related, but, could the the sensor element, lens/aperture, or light source
make a difference? Or, could this be a function of "grain aliasing" showing
more prominently in those tones than others? I ask because their boundary
seems blockier than other areas. On the other hand, it may just appear that
way because the tonal transition is more abrupt, giving higher contrast at
the perimeter.

Could it be a function of too much separation of tones? IOW, is this
information in the "toe" of the film's response curve and, as such, flat or
compressed to begin with? In a silver print might get this area get further
compressed into dark shadow and print much darker, and therefore go
unnoticed? (I tend to think not since with my images I get the same effect
in dark sky image areas of my MIS prints, but on silver papers these tones
print with smooth, subtle, gradations).

Obviously, I have more questions than answers. I believe this type of
posterization (and/or whatever this is) is a somewhat common component of
digital printing that was rather uncommon in conventional printing.
Unfortunately, it's not always easy to determine where it comes from.
Sometimes it's from overworking an 8-bit file, but I suspect, as often as
not, it's from something else. I'm interested to hear what some of you think
that "else" may be...

Todd Flashner

Re: [Digital BW] Posterization - Is it always bit depth? (Long)

2002-05-28 by Robert Morrison

I wonder what the histogram of this photo looked like before Austin expanded
levels in his scanner software?  Is there any blotchiness in the shadows in
the neg?
----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066


Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 5/28/02 10:44 AM, "Todd Flashner" <tflash@...> wrote:

> 
> In the "8x16 bits and BW" thread I suggested it's possible that the
> posterization we sometimes see in our prints, contrary to conventional
> wisdom, may NOT be from "overworking a file", "breaking an image",
> "insufficient bit depth", "lost tones",  or any of the various expressions
> used to suggest a problem that may occur from editing 8-bit files.
> 
> Austin has recently sent me Piezo prints for my perusal, as I am interested
> in assessing that output, being the longtime Roark/MIS user I am. He has
> graciously allowed me to scan and post an example that SUBTLY illustrates
> the type of phenomenon I referred to. I've also encountered it in my
> workflow and it has stymied me because 16-bit evidence did not help.
> 
> It's perfect this print comes from Austin because he does no 8-bit editing,
> and his histograms have no gaps within their endpoints. As such, any
> posterization in the image could not be due to the "lost tones" associated
> with 8-bit image manipulation. Furthermore, Austin's workflow excludes some
> of the other usual suspects, like interpolation, USM, or selections/masking.
> If there is such a thing as Certified Organic files that's what Austin
> prints from. So what we have is a nice print of a lovely image and what I
> will point to is not meant as a criticism of any kind - on the contrary, I
> think it may be so common that, to many of us, it goes unnoticed.
> 
> I'm posting two samples of a scan of Austin's print, one a small jpeg of the
> overall photo, and the other, a TIFF detail of the area in question. The
> print was scanned in grayscale mode at 300dpi on my Umax Powerlook III.
> 
> The files are in the Message Related folder for 5/02. Hopefully this link
> will get you there:
> 
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/Message%20
> Related%20Files/05_2002%20uploads/>
> 
> What I am addressing are the deep 3/4 tones along the right side of the
> woman's body. They extend from her armpit to her leg, and from the the
> bottom of her forearm to her hand. To my eyes the transition between tones
> in those areas is harsher and more abrupt than other tones in the print, and
> just have an unnatural appearance to me. I'd say the main characteristic is
> an area of mostly "flat" shadow tones which are "blocky" at their perimeter.
> 
> Whatever it is, I suspect many of us experience it and refer to it as
> posterization. My sense is the effect looks more prominent in print than on
> screen. It's possible, but I have not measured it, that the ink color for
> that ink position is "cooler" than the other inks, which causes it to stand
> out against them, but since these scans originated in grayscale mode they
> would not reveal that.
> 
> I'm interested to know:
> 
> A) Do these tones look "natural" to you? Am I suggesting there is a problem
> where none really exists? (FWIW, Austin knew immediately what I was
> referring to when I mentioned it, so if you do feel I'm making something
> from nothing it's possible that it is more evident in the print than on the
> monitor.)
> 
> B) If not "natural", do these tones look typical to you? IOW, do you get
> them with your workflow and materials? Conventional materials, or digital
> only? At what stage of the process do they appear in your work, ie, in the
> neg, scan, or print?
> 
> C) Do you notice them using some materials or workflows more than others?
> 
> My suspicion is that those areas in a well printed glossy silver print would
> have a much smoother feel/gradation, or a more natural placement of values.
> I'm guessing that those tonal transitions are somewhat present in the
> negative but are exacerbated by scanning, and then further amplified in
> printing. But that's just my hunch, I'd like to hear what others think.
> 
> This print was produced with the Piezo driver using Piezo inks, by an
> experienced user. The Piezo product is considered my some to be the "gold
> standard" for smooth output and tonality, so how likely is it to be an
> effect of that process? I don't know what profile Austin used (for what I
> believe is Epson HeavyWeight Matte), but I do know his step wedges and
> Tyler's Zees prints looked smooth and uniform.
> 
> One suspicion of mine is that this might be an effect off CCD scans. In the
> small sampling of drum scans I've had made for my negatives (thanks Mike K)
> I believe that the drum scanner handled such tones slightly better than my
> Leaf. Have any of you who've used both CCD and drum scanners noticed this
> occurrence more in scans from one scanner type over the other? The Leaf
> scans in 14-bits, same as most drums, so I don't think it's bit depth
> related, but, could the the sensor element, lens/aperture, or light source
> make a difference? Or, could this be a function of "grain aliasing" showing
> more prominently in those tones than others? I ask because their boundary
> seems blockier than other areas. On the other hand, it may just appear that
> way because the tonal transition is more abrupt, giving higher contrast at
> the perimeter.
> 
> Could it be a function of too much separation of tones? IOW, is this
> information in the "toe" of the film's response curve and, as such, flat or
> compressed to begin with? In a silver print might get this area get further
> compressed into dark shadow and print much darker, and therefore go
> unnoticed? (I tend to think not since with my images I get the same effect
> in dark sky image areas of my MIS prints, but on silver papers these tones
> print with smooth, subtle, gradations).
> 
> Obviously, I have more questions than answers. I believe this type of
> posterization (and/or whatever this is) is a somewhat common component of
> digital printing that was rather uncommon in conventional printing.
> Unfortunately, it's not always easy to determine where it comes from.
> Sometimes it's from overworking an 8-bit file, but I suspect, as often as
> not, it's from something else. I'm interested to hear what some of you think
> that "else" may be...
> 
> Todd Flashner
> 
> 
> 
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