Digital BW, The Print

Andrea,

I think that everybody should print an identical print on about a dozen sheets of paper, and then take them to the chemistry lab at your
local University and ask the Lab Manager if you can display them there for a couple of months. See if any paper makes it through the first
month. Get them as close to the chemicals as feasible. Bet some of the papers turn color/shift/fade/rot/disintegrate/ in a very short time,
while others will do better. Lets see which paper is the winner in THIS test.

I've never seen the Epson Matte turn green. But of Course I live in North Dakota. Someone has to.

Legion Photo Matte is an excellent replacement, but I bet in a few months someone will report it's turning green or orange or some other
color.

Jerry



am1000@... wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Here's a snippet from a recent Jon Cone message on the other list.
>
> "DO NOT PRINT ON EPSON ARCHIVAL MATTE!  IT IS KNOWN TO TURN GREEN IN
> THE PRESENCE OF OZONE"
>
> So, what's a good replacement for EAM ?
>
> Andre
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Andre wrote:

>Here's a snippet from a recent Jon Cone message on the other list.

>"DO NOT PRINT ON EPSON ARCHIVAL MATTE!  IT IS KNOWN TO TURN GREEN IN
>THE PRESENCE OF OZONE"

>So, what's a good replacement for EAM ?

I suspect it is an ink problem more than an Archival Matte problem.  The
context of Cone's statement is a battle over the increasingly famous "green
cast" problem(s) of Piezo prints.

Look again at the comparison of ink dots made with Piezo magenta v. MIS VM
magenta inks.  This is in the Files section of this forum.  Go to

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

then hit "Message Related Files" and look at file "Piezo-MISdots.jpg."

The Piezo ink, I believe, has a fair amount of greenish dyes in it.  I
beleive this "Kleenex Chromatography" experiment shows those dyes.  My
interpretation is that the dyes, which I believe are in solution migrated
through the Kleenex further than the pigment particles.  Now, again, I'm no
chemist and may be mis-reading this experiment's results.  However, my fade
testing also seems to indicate that there is a substantial dye component to
Piezo ink.  In my experiments it fades substantially faster than MIS inks.

We know that dyes are susceptible to ozone.  We also know that dyes work
better (fade less) on Epson Heavy Weight matte paper.  Archival Matte paper
was designed specifically for pigments, not dyes.

So, I think what we have with the Piezo ink is a fair amount of dye and
perhaps a mismatch between those dyes and the Archival Matte paper.

Is there an easy and cheap solution?

I found one that works for me -- switch inks.

Of course, if it turns out other pigments also turn green on EAM paper, then
I stand corrected and will re-consider my generally positive view toward
that paper.  However, until I find a paper that performs as well as EAM in
my fade tester, I'm reluctant to give up what appears to be a great bargain
and excellent performer.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, hasn't Cone repeatedly stated his inks are pure pigment?  I thought he had.

jerry









Paul Roark wrote:

> Andre wrote:
>
> >Here's a snippet from a recent Jon Cone message on the other list.
>
> >"DO NOT PRINT ON EPSON ARCHIVAL MATTE!  IT IS KNOWN TO TURN GREEN IN
> >THE PRESENCE OF OZONE"
>
> >So, what's a good replacement for EAM ?
>
> I suspect it is an ink problem more than an Archival Matte problem.  The
> context of Cone's statement is a battle over the increasingly famous "green
> cast" problem(s) of Piezo prints.
>
> Look again at the comparison of ink dots made with Piezo magenta v. MIS VM
> magenta inks.  This is in the Files section of this forum.  Go to
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> then hit "Message Related Files" and look at file "Piezo-MISdots.jpg."
>
> The Piezo ink, I believe, has a fair amount of greenish dyes in it.  I
> beleive this "Kleenex Chromatography" experiment shows those dyes.  My
> interpretation is that the dyes, which I believe are in solution migrated
> through the Kleenex further than the pigment particles.  Now, again, I'm no
> chemist and may be mis-reading this experiment's results.  However, my fade
> testing also seems to indicate that there is a substantial dye component to
> Piezo ink.  In my experiments it fades substantially faster than MIS inks.
>
> We know that dyes are susceptible to ozone.  We also know that dyes work
> better (fade less) on Epson Heavy Weight matte paper.  Archival Matte paper
> was designed specifically for pigments, not dyes.
>
> So, I think what we have with the Piezo ink is a fair amount of dye and
> perhaps a mismatch between those dyes and the Archival Matte paper.
>
> Is there an easy and cheap solution?
>
> I found one that works for me -- switch inks.
>
> Of course, if it turns out other pigments also turn green on EAM paper, then
> I stand corrected and will re-consider my generally positive view toward
> that paper.  However, until I find a paper that performs as well as EAM in
> my fade tester, I'm reluctant to give up what appears to be a great bargain
> and excellent performer.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Jerry,

You wrote:

>Paul, hasn't Cone repeatedly stated his inks are pure pigment?
>I thought he had.

I thought his position was that there had to be some dyes in the pigmented
inks to give them proper color.  For example, the carbon black is said to be
brown with if no "dyes" are added.  I think that MIS or Media Street
originally came out with a black ink that was pure carbon, and it was not
well received -- too warm and not dark enough.

MIS has also stated that their inks contain about .5% "dye."  However, MIS
characterizes the "dye" in their inks as the colorant that coats the carbon
particle, which is the core of the pigment particle.  I have gotten the
impression that all these desktop pigments are carbon particles at the
center.  Even the color pigments apparently are carbon coated with a
colorant -- which MIS calls a "dye."  (Note, this is contrary to my
understanding that "dye" usually means in this industry a colorant that is
dissolved in the solution as opposed to a pigment particle that is merely in
suspension -- and hopefully kept there by the Brownian motion of the fluid
base.)

My understanding from MIS is that the coating on the carbon particle is the
only "dye" in their inks.  This is unlike some "pigmented" inks from other
companies, however, where there are also dyes added to the mix in addition
to the colorant/coating that is on the particle.  In these inks, the dye
would be dissolved into the solution, not a separate particle in suspension.
I suspect that Piezo is in this category, and that is why we see the
separation in the chromatography experiment.

However, I, again, am not a chemist and could be totally wrong on how these
inks are made.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com









Paul Roark wrote:

> Andre wrote:
>
> >Here's a snippet from a recent Jon Cone message on the other list.
>
> >"DO NOT PRINT ON EPSON ARCHIVAL MATTE!  IT IS KNOWN TO TURN GREEN IN
> >THE PRESENCE OF OZONE"
>
> >So, what's a good replacement for EAM ?
>
> I suspect it is an ink problem more than an Archival Matte problem.  The
> context of Cone's statement is a battle over the increasingly famous
"green
> cast" problem(s) of Piezo prints.
>
> Look again at the comparison of ink dots made with Piezo magenta v. MIS VM
> magenta inks.  This is in the Files section of this forum.  Go to
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> then hit "Message Related Files" and look at file "Piezo-MISdots.jpg."
>
> The Piezo ink, I believe, has a fair amount of greenish dyes in it.  I
> beleive this "Kleenex Chromatography" experiment shows those dyes.  My
> interpretation is that the dyes, which I believe are in solution migrated
> through the Kleenex further than the pigment particles.  Now, again, I'm
no
> chemist and may be mis-reading this experiment's results.  However, my
fade
> testing also seems to indicate that there is a substantial dye component
to
> Piezo ink.  In my experiments it fades substantially faster than MIS inks.
>
> We know that dyes are susceptible to ozone.  We also know that dyes work
> better (fade less) on Epson Heavy Weight matte paper.  Archival Matte
paper
> was designed specifically for pigments, not dyes.
>
> So, I think what we have with the Piezo ink is a fair amount of dye and
> perhaps a mismatch between those dyes and the Archival Matte paper.
>
> Is there an easy and cheap solution?
>
> I found one that works for me -- switch inks.
>
> Of course, if it turns out other pigments also turn green on EAM paper,
then
> I stand corrected and will re-consider my generally positive view toward
> that paper.  However, until I find a paper that performs as well as EAM in
> my fade tester, I'm reluctant to give up what appears to be a great
bargain

> and excellent performer.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, Jerry,

Jon has said there are dyes in Piezo to achieve the desired tone. He 
did not clarify their nature or amount other than that it was small.

I think that Paul's test is very interesting. First the color of the 
Piezo ink is the colorcast I see in all Piezo prints under tungsten 
or halogen lighting. The amount of green I see in the prints is very 
slight. (I may be colorblind, as no one else seems to see this.) I 
see it as soon as it comes out of the printer. It isn't something 
that happens later. In daylight I don't see the green cast and the 
Piezo looks just fine with a warm-neutral tone.

I don't see this in the MIS VM prints that Todd sent me and only see 
it in the warm area of a split tone print I received in the print 
exchange from Ron Landucci that was done with the MIS VM inks.

I believe this is counter to what Steve reported recently that the 
MIS prints looked greener than Piezo prints in daylight, so perhaps I 
am color blind after all. Or if both MIS and Piezo have metamerism 
perhaps it is in the opposite directions.

Secondly Paul's test indicates to me that the MIS ink is a more 
stable dispersion. The pigment and particles appear to stay together 
rather than separating. This may explain why there are no clog 
complaints about the MIS inks and clogging is a way of life with 
Piezo. Paul can you send me a higher resolution copy of that image 
file? I would like to see if there is any solvent spread from the MIS 
ink.

There was the one report of a Piezo print on EAM displayed in an 
elevator where both the paper and the ink turned green. Jon blamed 
this on ozone in the environment. Obviously something happened to the 
print but I doubt that it was ozone. Bob Meyer has been investigating 
the relation between the 1270 Epson ink failure and ozone. Todd is 
sending him two Piezo prints I made on EAM, one coated and one 
uncoated, to put in his ozone chamber so we should have an answer in 
a few weeks. I also offered to coat some color prints for Bob and he 
requested that I not use EAM, as this was very stable with the 1270 
inks. He did not mention any problem with the paper turning green due 
to ozone exposure.

I think there are two issues with EAM and Jerry has already reported 
one. In window testing the paper yellows a bit. This fits with what 
Robert Rex of Crane posted about optical brightener agents. They have 
a fixed life and then fade leaving the paper more yellow than it 
started out. Second it really does test out acid so it may not last 
as long as non-acid papers. How critical either of these are, is up 
to the individual user.

How many green issues there are? There are:

- Piezo printing starts producing tonally degraded prints and a shift 
to green on some printers as the heads slowly clog up. The Jim Hayes 
issue.

- Some piezo prints on EAM have turned green sometime after they were 
printed.

- A couple of people have said that EAM's base color looks slightly 
green to them from the optical brighteners.

- Ozone reportedly turns EAM or Piezo on EAM green.

- I see a green shift metamerism in tungsten light with Piezo on a 
wide range of papers.

Are there others I have left out? It is really confusing because 
people keep talking about the green problem but don't say which one.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jerry,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >Paul, hasn't Cone repeatedly stated his inks are pure pigment?
> >I thought he had.
> 
> I thought his position was that there had to be some dyes in the 
pigmented
> inks to give them proper color.  For example, the carbon black is 
said to be
> brown with if no "dyes" are added.  I think that MIS or Media Street
> originally came out with a black ink that was pure carbon, and it 
was not
> well received -- too warm and not dark enough.
> 
> MIS has also stated that their inks contain about .5% "dye."  
However, MIS
> characterizes the "dye" in their inks as the colorant that coats 
the carbon
> particle, which is the core of the pigment particle.  I have gotten 
the
> impression that all these desktop pigments are carbon particles at 
the
> center.  Even the color pigments apparently are carbon coated with a
> colorant -- which MIS calls a "dye."  (Note, this is contrary to my
> understanding that "dye" usually means in this industry a colorant 
that is
> dissolved in the solution as opposed to a pigment particle that is 
merely in
> suspension -- and hopefully kept there by the Brownian motion of 
the fluid
> base.)
> 
> My understanding from MIS is that the coating on the carbon 
particle is the
> only "dye" in their inks.  This is unlike some "pigmented" inks 
from other
> companies, however, where there are also dyes added to the mix in 
addition
> to the colorant/coating that is on the particle.  In these inks, 
the dye
> would be dissolved into the solution, not a separate particle in 
suspension.
> I suspect that Piezo is in this category, and that is why we see the
> separation in the chromatography experiment.
> 
> However, I, again, am not a chemist and could be totally wrong on 
how these
> inks are made.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
(snip)

In a message dated 08/25/2001 11:37:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
mwesley250@... writes:

<< I believe this is counter to what Steve reported recently that the 
 MIS prints looked greener than Piezo prints in daylight, so perhaps I 
 am color blind after all. Or if both MIS and Piezo have metamerism 
 perhaps it is in the opposite directions. 
YES!
  >>
This is on Royal plush paper With Standard Hextone MIS inks. The MIS is still 
greenish looking compared to the Piezo print in daylight. You cold ALMOSTsay 
the reverse in Tungsten Light. The variety of what eyes are seeing is 
probably the tone and nature of the photo. If my image was heavy in the black 
tones you wouldn't see it. Lots of mid and light tones then yes!  Since we 
are all looking at different pictures is probably nothing to be stressing 
about.

Martin, I see no green in any prints on EAM, but I do see a very brown image in daylight on pure white papers. Under tungsten lighting, they
are completely neutral, and I see no brown.

I remember the very first piezo print I ever saw. It was J. Cone's small sample print he sent out to everyone who asked for a sample. It was
on watercolor paper. It was extremely muddy, flat, and had an extremely weak black. It was brownish, but also had an olive green cast. I was
amazed that he would send out such a poor quality print as a sample of piezography. If I ever turned in a print like that at Brooks, it
would have gotten an their equivalent of an F. (Automatic Reprint til you got it right). BUT... there were no dots! That's the only reason
why I bought into the system. I figured that on a different kind of paper, you could at least get better contrast. You could. Then I wanted
a way to get the brown tones out of the inks. (I never experienced that olive green cast when I was printing, so I attribute that to the
paper the sample was on). That's when I started wondering if someone had ever altered the tones of the piezo inks. Tom Welch was the first
person I found who had, and he sent several samples of his cold toned look. Beautiful prints! No dots! Cold Toned! I got some of the
doctored inks from him, and got beautiful Cold toned inks. Then Paul Roark started his curves, and MIS variable tone inks, and it just took
off from there. It seems like there are no ink/paper combinations without problems even today, a few years later. Even when you think you
find one that is without problems, someone finds some. It's really frustrating.  For Me, I'm done with Piezo inks. When the ones in my
printer are gone, their gone! THe MIS inks and Paul's curves are so good, I have no need for the high priced system any more.

Jerry

Steve,

I agree. There are so many subtle differences in lighting, paper and 
most importantly human eyeballs and the eyeball-to-brain connection. 
The very slight differences need to be ignored.

I tend to be very sensitive to print color when I am in the middle of 
working on a print, silver included. If I revisit a print some time 
later, I no longer see many of the slight differences in contrast, 
exposure or tonal shift that seemed so importantly large when I was 
originally working on it!

I think that as you get very close to a true neutral gray tiny, tiny 
shifts in tone become much more noticeable. My though is that if the 
inks were a little farther from neutral these shifts would not be 
visible. So I will take a shot at the VM inks and try to stop being 
overly particular. No guarantees on the latter!

Martin




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 08/25/2001 11:37:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
> mwesley250@e... writes:
> 
> << I believe this is counter to what Steve reported recently that 
the 
>  MIS prints looked greener than Piezo prints in daylight, so 
perhaps I 
>  am color blind after all. Or if both MIS and Piezo have metamerism 
>  perhaps it is in the opposite directions. 
> YES!
>   >>
> This is on Royal plush paper With Standard Hextone MIS inks. The 
MIS is still 
> greenish looking compared to the Piezo print in daylight. You cold 
ALMOSTsay 
> the reverse in Tungsten Light. The variety of what eyes are seeing 
is 
> probably the tone and nature of the photo. If my image was heavy in 
the black 
> tones you wouldn't see it. Lots of mid and light tones then yes!  
Since we 
> are all looking at different pictures is probably nothing to be 
stressing 
> about.

Jerry,

As I said I may have a slightly off color vision. That "brownish. but 
also had an olive green cast" is what I am seeing on pretty much all 
papers with piezo. But the operative words are SLIGHT and TO MY EYE.

I have often though that if Piezo were just a bit cooler or a bit 
warmer even, it would move off a color point that I have always found 
a little less than satisfying under tungsten light.

As a note, I consider tungsten and halogen the reference lighting. 
That what people have in their homes and that is what you will find 
in galleries and museums. While the 5000K graphic arts standard is 
critical to color reproduction, not much of the results will be 
viewed at that color temperature.

I hope to have the VM inks up on my 1280 very soon and am looking 
forward to the results.

Thanks,
Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Martin, I see no green in any prints on EAM, but I do see a very 
brown image in daylight on pure white papers. Under tungsten 
lighting, they
> are completely neutral, and I see no brown.
> 
> I remember the very first piezo print I ever saw. It was J. Cone's 
small sample print he sent out to everyone who asked for a sample. It 
was
> on watercolor paper. It was extremely muddy, flat, and had an 
extremely weak black. It was brownish, but also had an olive green 
cast. I was
> amazed that he would send out such a poor quality print as a sample 
of piezography. If I ever turned in a print like that at Brooks, it
> would have gotten an their equivalent of an F. (Automatic Reprint 
til you got it right). BUT... there were no dots! That's the only 
reason
> why I bought into the system. I figured that on a different kind of 
paper, you could at least get better contrast. You could. Then I 
wanted
> a way to get the brown tones out of the inks. (I never experienced 
that olive green cast when I was printing, so I attribute that to the
> paper the sample was on). That's when I started wondering if 
someone had ever altered the tones of the piezo inks. Tom Welch was 
the first
> person I found who had, and he sent several samples of his cold 
toned look. Beautiful prints! No dots! Cold Toned! I got some of the
> doctored inks from him, and got beautiful Cold toned inks. Then 
Paul Roark started his curves, and MIS variable tone inks, and it 
just took
> off from there. It seems like there are no ink/paper combinations 
without problems even today, a few years later. Even when you think 
you
> find one that is without problems, someone finds some. It's really 
frustrating.  For Me, I'm done with Piezo inks. When the ones in my
> printer are gone, their gone! THe MIS inks and Paul's curves are so 
good, I have no need for the high priced system any more.
> 
> Jerry

on 8/26/01 2:36 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> It isn't something
> that happens later. In daylight I don't see the green cast and the
> Piezo looks just fine with a warm-neutral tone.
> 
> I don't see this in the MIS VM prints that Todd sent me and only see
> it in the warm area of a split tone print I received in the print
> exchange from Ron Landucci that was done with the MIS VM inks.

Martin,

I don't mean to confuse you more, but those prints I sent you were made
using a Piezo/Generations ink blend, and using a workflow similar to that of
Paul's current MIS VT formulation.

I also find the Piezo inks at times look green to me under tungsten
illumination, but not always. And this includes many of the prints from the
print exchange. So, I do not think you are color blind. I think it's either
a metameric thing, or a "green compared to ..." thing. But I haven't put
enough attention into it to really speak with certainty. I can simply say
they sometimes "feel" green to me, especially the ones on EAM. The tones on
the Hahnemuhle papers strike me as cooler and more neutral.

I will be moving to the MIS inks shortly. I'll see what's funky about them
soon enough. I don't expect any ink to be perfect just yet.

on 8/26/01 5:53 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:

> So I will take a shot at the VM inks and try to stop being
> overly particular. No guarantees on the latter!

Perfectionists RULE!  <g>

Todd

Hi Martin, I also thought I might be slightly colorblind when everyone thought I liked my prints too "cool". The next time I went to get new
eyeglasses, I took a color blindness test. The doc showed me around 25 charts of different colored numbers, and it turns out I got them all
correct.  So I guess I have normal color vision, but I do like my prints slightly cooler than most people. I don't want to actually see cyan
or blue in a print. Just cooler than normal.

Jerry



Martin Wesley wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> As I said I may have a slightly off color vision. That "brownish. but
> also had an olive green cast" is what I am seeing on pretty much all
> papers with piezo. But the operative words are SLIGHT and TO MY EYE.
>
> I have often though that if Piezo were just a bit cooler or a bit
> warmer even, it would move off a color point that I have always found
> a little less than satisfying under tungsten light.
>
> As a note, I consider tungsten and halogen the reference lighting.
> That what people have in their homes and that is what you will find
> in galleries and museums. While the 5000K graphic arts standard is
> critical to color reproduction, not much of the results will be
> viewed at that color temperature.
>
> I hope to have the VM inks up on my 1280 very soon and am looking
> forward to the results.
>
> Thanks,
> Martin
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Martin, I see no green in any prints on EAM, but I do see a very
> brown image in daylight on pure white papers. Under tungsten
> lighting, they
> > are completely neutral, and I see no brown.
> >
> > I remember the very first piezo print I ever saw. It was J. Cone's
> small sample print he sent out to everyone who asked for a sample. It
> was
> > on watercolor paper. It was extremely muddy, flat, and had an
> extremely weak black. It was brownish, but also had an olive green
> cast. I was
> > amazed that he would send out such a poor quality print as a sample
> of piezography. If I ever turned in a print like that at Brooks, it
> > would have gotten an their equivalent of an F. (Automatic Reprint
> til you got it right). BUT... there were no dots! That's the only
> reason
> > why I bought into the system. I figured that on a different kind of
> paper, you could at least get better contrast. You could. Then I
> wanted
> > a way to get the brown tones out of the inks. (I never experienced
> that olive green cast when I was printing, so I attribute that to the
> > paper the sample was on). That's when I started wondering if
> someone had ever altered the tones of the piezo inks. Tom Welch was
> the first
> > person I found who had, and he sent several samples of his cold
> toned look. Beautiful prints! No dots! Cold Toned! I got some of the
> > doctored inks from him, and got beautiful Cold toned inks. Then
> Paul Roark started his curves, and MIS variable tone inks, and it
> just took
> > off from there. It seems like there are no ink/paper combinations
> without problems even today, a few years later. Even when you think
> you
> > find one that is without problems, someone finds some. It's really
> frustrating.  For Me, I'm done with Piezo inks. When the ones in my
> > printer are gone, their gone! THe MIS inks and Paul's curves are so
> good, I have no need for the high priced system any more.
> >
> > Jerry
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 8/26/01 2:36 AM, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > It isn't something
> > that happens later. In daylight I don't see the green cast and the
> > Piezo looks just fine with a warm-neutral tone.
> > 
> > I don't see this in the MIS VM prints that Todd sent me and only 
see
> > it in the warm area of a split tone print I received in the print
> > exchange from Ron Landucci that was done with the MIS VM inks.
> 
> Martin,
> 
> I don't mean to confuse you more, but those prints I sent you were 
made
> using a Piezo/Generations ink blend, and using a workflow similar 
to that of
> Paul's current MIS VT formulation.

That's okay I'm confused anyways.<g> I know you are using a slightly 
modified Piezo inset but your prints don't have the green cast under 
tungsten that I see in others. It may be that by shifting the overall 
tone of the prints slightly cooler or warmer the effect is reduced or 
eliminated. Do you by chance have an earlier batch of ink?

> 
> I also find the Piezo inks at times look green to me under tungsten
> illumination, but not always. And this includes many of the prints 
from the
> print exchange. So, I do not think you are color blind. I think 
it's either
> a metameric thing, or a "green compared to ..." thing. But I 
haven't put
> enough attention into it to really speak with certainty. I can 
simply say
> they sometimes "feel" green to me, especially the ones on EAM. The 
tones on
> the Hahnemuhle papers strike me as cooler and more neutral.
> 
> I will be moving to the MIS inks shortly. I'll see what's funky 
about them
> soon enough. I don't expect any ink to be perfect just yet.

That pretty much matched my observations. Light source, proximity of 
other objects, paper, whether my eyes have fully adjusted to room 
light from having been outdoors, etc, all play a part. The Piezo inks 
do have a green component. I assume that this was to color correct a 
red or magenta shift back to neutral. Sometimes this is visible.

We are still in the early stages of this technology and the inks are 
not perfect. Since it is new and most of us are used to silver, I 
think we are looking at these prints in a very hypercritical manner. 
This is unavoidable but not really fair either. There are plenty of 
silver papers whose color I don't like! There are just so many it is 
easy to find ones that do work for me.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> on 8/26/01 5:53 PM, Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > So I will take a shot at the VM inks and try to stop being
> > overly particular. No guarantees on the latter!
> 
> Perfectionists RULE!  <g>
> 
> Todd

Well they would if they could even quit experimenting, worrying, 
tweaking and actually do something!

Martin

Martin Wesley wrote:

>The Piezo inks
> do have a green component. I assume that this was to color correct a
> red or magenta shift back to neutral. 


Has this been confirmed by Jon Cone, or is it really speculation?

Regards,

John Haugaard
Decatur, Georgia

John,

No it has not been confirmed by Jon to my knowledge.

I my statement regarding the green content of the ink is based on 
viewing the results of Paul Roark's test comparing the magenta 
position inks of MIS VM and Piezo. From the group homepage go 
to "Files" then to "Message Related Files". You will find three jpeg 
files "Piezo-MIS dots" showing the two inks side by side on a piece 
of kleenex. As you can see the ink appears to be rather green. The 
green in these images is very close in shade to the green cast I 
personally see in Piezo prints under tungsten light. The Piezo prints 
look excellent in daylight to my eye by the way.

My thought that the green was added to balance an unwanted color 
shift in the opposite direction is speculation only.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "John Haugaard" <john@d...> 
wrote:
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> >The Piezo inks
> > do have a green component. I assume that this was to color 
correct a

> > red or magenta shift back to neutral. 
> 
> 
> Has this been confirmed by Jon Cone, or is it really speculation?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John Haugaard
> Decatur, Georgia

Jerry,

I suspect I would get a similar result and I do intend to ask for the 
test the next time I go in. I think that the colorcasts in these 
prints are rather subtle and there is a wide range of personal taste 
involved. We just have to go after what we each like.

Now that I see Paul's neutral curve on Legion Photo Matte and Todd's 
prints I know that there are options. To me that is the most 
important thing. 

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Hi Martin, I also thought I might be slightly colorblind when 
everyone thought I liked my prints too "cool". The next time I went 
to get new
> eyeglasses, I took a color blindness test. The doc showed me around 
25 charts of different colored numbers, and it turns out I got them 
all
> correct.  So I guess I have normal color vision, but I do like my 
prints slightly cooler than most people. I don't want to actually see 
cyan
> or blue in a print. Just cooler than normal.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
(snip)