Digital BW, The Print

I recently posted the message number 15190 -  "MIS Quadtone inks and 
Epson 780 (790 in Europe) ", but I guess nobody could answer me, so 
I am going to ask a different question:

Considering that I would like to give it a try and use MIS  quad 
inks, what type should I be using and with what epson A4 printer? 
(not the A3 printers, those are too much for my budget). What about 
good workflows and a good paper combination for it?

I´m trying to find someone who uses a similar setup to the one I 
want to make.

Thanx

Miguel

Miguel,

If you are interested in the variable-tone inksets, the MIS website has a
list of printers for which there are control curves.

For the FS inksets, the Piezo driver is needed for most, although there are
some Epson driver workflows for some quadtone printers.

Check out the workflows on the MIS website, it there is not workflow posted,
I'd be hesitant to use the printer-inkset combination unless you are
proficient with making Photoshop image adjustment curves to control quadtone
inks.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com



________________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: n3wskin [mailto:prof_migas@...]
  Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:32 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson


  I recently posted the message number 15190 -  "MIS Quadtone inks and
  Epson 780 (790 in Europe) ", but I guess nobody could answer me, so
  I am going to ask a different question:

  Considering that I would like to give it a try and use MIS  quad
  inks, what type should I be using and with what epson A4 printer?
  (not the A3 printers, those are too much for my budget). What about
  good workflows and a good paper combination for it?

  I´m trying to find someone who uses a similar setup to the one I
  want to make.

  Thanx

  Miguel





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanx Paul,

I think I will get an Epson 870 for BW Prints, and use your variable 
mix quad workflow with the epson drivers (pc version).

Just wondering what kind of paper is best suitable for these inks 
and printer? (I like glossy and semiglossy on color prints)

Thank you

Miguel


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Miguel,
> 
> If you are interested in the variable-tone inksets, the MIS 
website has a
> list of printers for which there are control curves.
> 
> For the FS inksets, the Piezo driver is needed for most, although 
there are
> some Epson driver workflows for some quadtone printers.
> 
> Check out the workflows on the MIS website, it there is not 
workflow posted,
> I'd be hesitant to use the printer-inkset combination unless you 
are
> proficient with making Photoshop image adjustment curves to 
control quadtone
> inks.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: n3wskin [mailto:prof_migas@h...]
>   Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:32 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson
> 
> 
>   I recently posted the message number 15190 -  "MIS Quadtone inks 
and
>   Epson 780 (790 in Europe) ", but I guess nobody could answer me, 
so
>   I am going to ask a different question:
> 
>   Considering that I would like to give it a try and use MIS  quad
>   inks, what type should I be using and with what epson A4 printer?
>   (not the A3 printers, those are too much for my budget). What 
about

>   good workflows and a good paper combination for it?
> 
>   I´m trying to find someone who uses a similar setup to the one I
>   want to make.
> 
>   Thanx
> 
>   Miguel
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Miguel,

I use mostly Epson Archival Matte (EAM) for the MIS quads.  I like it's
smooth surface, very good blacks and fade resistance.  It doesn't hurt that
it is also dirt cheap relative to most of the other papers that come close
to its quality.

(EAM's modest price is, in part, due to its wood-pulp cellulose source.
However, it is supposed to be lignin free -- lignin being the source of the
acid reserve in wood-pulp, and acid will ultimately destroy the cellulose.
The debate as to whether it has the ultra-long-term staying power of a
rag/cotton-based paper is unresolved in my mind.  Some experts claim that
properly processed wood pulp can be archival.  At any rate, I'm more
interested in image permanence than ultimate paper fiber life, and EAM is
close the the best there for pigmented inks.)

Pigmented inks just don't do well on glossy and semi-gloss papers.  They can
be used, but a spray coat is needed to stop them from smudging, "bronzing"
and "dusting."

I came from the air-dried, "F" surface, silver print school of thought and
prefer that silver print surface.  These matte papers are dull compared to
that surface.  However, I mount them under glass, and with that display
mode, I think they end up being about the same as what I prefer.

If you do want a glossier look, try Brightcube Semi-Matte sprayed with
Krylon UV Resistant Clear (#1305)-- 3 to four light coats -- per Robert
Morrison's posts on this forum.

For a heavier paper with a little more surface texture, try the Hahnemuhle
line.

Many also like the Eclipse papers.  I'm probably going to try the soft white
version with no optical brighteners for preservation purposes.

An old standard that is worth trying is Somerset Enhanced.  (I have a
transfer function that helps profile this paper.)

There is an almost endless number of papers to try.  I'd recommend starting
with EAM to get a standard against which to compare the others.  Also, it
will hold down the costs of learning the system.  At www.atlex.com it is
very cheap, especially when several boxes are ordered at a time to hold down
handling costs.

Good luck.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com



_____________________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: n3wskin [mailto:prof_migas@...]
  Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 6:54 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson


  Thanx Paul,

  I think I will get an Epson 870 for BW Prints, and use your variable
  mix quad workflow with the epson drivers (pc version).

  Just wondering what kind of paper is best suitable for these inks
  and printer? (I like glossy and semiglossy on color prints)

  Thank you

  Miguel


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
  <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > Miguel,
  >
  > If you are interested in the variable-tone inksets, the MIS
  website has a
  > list of printers for which there are control curves.
  >
  > For the FS inksets, the Piezo driver is needed for most, although
  there are
  > some Epson driver workflows for some quadtone printers.
  >
  > Check out the workflows on the MIS website, it there is not
  workflow posted,
  > I'd be hesitant to use the printer-inkset combination unless you
  are
  > proficient with making Photoshop image adjustment curves to
  control quadtone
  > inks.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
  >
  >
  > ________________________________________________
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: n3wskin [mailto:prof_migas@h...]
  >   Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:32 PM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson
  >
  >
  >   I recently posted the message number 15190 -  "MIS Quadtone inks
  and
  >   Epson 780 (790 in Europe) ", but I guess nobody could answer me,
  so
  >   I am going to ask a different question:
  >
  >   Considering that I would like to give it a try and use MIS  quad
  >   inks, what type should I be using and with what epson A4 printer?
  >   (not the A3 printers, those are too much for my budget). What
  about
  >   good workflows and a good paper combination for it?
  >
  >   I´m trying to find someone who uses a similar setup to the one I
  >   want to make.
  >
  >   Thanx
  >
  >   Miguel
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

I noticed on the Atlex site that clicking on Enhanced Archival Matt takes
you to Enhanced Matte Paper. From earlier posts I gather this is just a
renaming issue although Epson makes a distinction on their site, still using
the EAM name for sheets and the EMP name for roll paper. The EMP description
states that it has the same coating as EAM but doesn't say the paper is the
same.

Have you tried EAM and EMP side by side to see if they really do print the
same? I would hate to stock up only to find out it is a different paper.

Thanks,
Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson -- papers


Miguel,

I use mostly Epson Archival Matte (EAM) for the MIS quads.  I like it's
smooth surface, very good blacks and fade resistance.  It doesn't hurt that
it is also dirt cheap relative to most of the other papers that come close
to its quality.

(snip)

will hold down the costs of learning the system.  At www.atlex.com it is
very cheap, especially when several boxes are ordered at a time to hold down
handling costs.

Good luck.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com



_____________________________________________________


  -----Original Message-----
  From: n3wskin [mailto:prof_migas@...]
  Sent: Sunday, June 02, 2002 6:54 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson


  Thanx Paul,

  I think I will get an Epson 870 for BW Prints, and use your variable
  mix quad workflow with the epson drivers (pc version).

  Just wondering what kind of paper is best suitable for these inks
  and printer? (I like glossy and semiglossy on color prints)

  Thank you

  Miguel


  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
  <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
  > Miguel,
  >
  > If you are interested in the variable-tone inksets, the MIS
  website has a
  > list of printers for which there are control curves.
  >
  > For the FS inksets, the Piezo driver is needed for most, although
  there are
  > some Epson driver workflows for some quadtone printers.
  >
  > Check out the workflows on the MIS website, it there is not
  workflow posted,
  > I'd be hesitant to use the printer-inkset combination unless you
  are
  > proficient with making Photoshop image adjustment curves to
  control quadtone
  > inks.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
  >
  >
  > ________________________________________________
  >   -----Original Message-----
  >   From: n3wskin [mailto:prof_migas@h...]
  >   Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 5:32 PM
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
  >   Subject: [Digital BW] MIS inks and Epson
  >
  >
  >   I recently posted the message number 15190 -  "MIS Quadtone inks
  and
  >   Epson 780 (790 in Europe) ", but I guess nobody could answer me,
  so
  >   I am going to ask a different question:
  >
  >   Considering that I would like to give it a try and use MIS  quad
  >   inks, what type should I be using and with what epson A4 printer?
  >   (not the A3 printers, those are too much for my budget). What
  about
  >   good workflows and a good paper combination for it?
  >
  >   I\ufffdm trying to find someone who uses a similar setup to the one I
  >   want to make.
  >
  >   Thanx
  >
  >   Miguel
  >
  >
  >
  >
  >
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- Include your full name with your message.
- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
- Complete your Yahoo profile.
- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Paul,

Thanx for all that info! I will certainly try the EAM paper.

I just wanted to know 2 more things:

- The new sepia tone inks are compatible with which workflow? (for 
epson 870)

- Do you know where I can find those inks or the VM ones around New 
York City?

Thank you!

Miguel

Miguel,

You wrote:

>I will certainly try the EAM paper.

Martin reminded me that it is now called "Enhanced Matte."  As far as I know
this is the same paper, but I have not yet tried the Epson Enhance Matte.
("EEM"?)

>I just wanted to know 2 more things:

>- The new sepia tone inks are compatible with which workflow? (for
>epson 870)

They are a different "flavor" of MIS VM, and use that basic workflow.

The densities of the various inks in the VM-Sepia are the same as the MIS VM
inks, but they are actually all new except for the black.  The base gray is
a neutral/cool gray -- the same one that is used in the FS-Neutral.  This
gray has the distinct advantage of not warming up nearly as much as the old
warm gray inks.  The new toner, rather than a blue toner to cool the old
warm gray, is a sepia (very warm) toner that warms the otherwise
neutral/cool gray ink.  So, the old curves work, but in reverse of the names
that were assigned to them with the MIS VM inkset.  Also, I've found that
even though the densities are the same, the inkset performs noticeably
better when the curves are specifically tailored to them.

Most noticeable is the old "warm" curve that produces a neutral/cool tone
with the VM-Sepia inkset.  With the existing "warm" curves I often simply
withheld the toner completely until I had to add it to "turn on" the black
ink.  What this does on some machines is cause a noticeable cross-over with
the VM-sepia inkset.  So, with the 1160 and 3000, I found that making a dead
neutral curve that actually does add a little toner through the midtones,
makes a much better print.  In fact, it's about the best, most neutral print
I've seen.

I now have an 870, so I'll be making these modifications to the 870 curves
for the VM-Sepia within the next few weeks.

>- Do you know where I can find those inks or the VM ones around New
>York City?

All MIS inks are ordered from them directly (www.inksupply.com).  I'm not
sure if the VM-Sepia inks are in carts.  I'd guess they are bulk (4 oz.)
only.  The bad news with that is that you have to load cartridges.  The good
news is that it is a lot cheaper to buy inks that way.  Once you know that
you want to stay with a particular inkset, a continuous flow inking system
is the way to go.  That avoids the carts and filling hassles.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul Roark wrote:

 
> All MIS inks are ordered from them directly (www.inksupply.com).  I'm not
> sure if the VM-Sepia inks are in carts.  I'd guess they are bulk (4 oz.)
> only.  The bad news with that is that you have to load cartridges.  The good
> news is that it is a lot cheaper to buy inks that way.  Once you know that
> you want to stay with a particular inkset, a continuous flow inking system
> is the way to go.  That avoids the carts and filling hassles.

I was told by Bob at MIS that the VM-Sepia inks where being filled in
carts last week and they would be available very soon. I was
specifically asking him about carts for the Epson 1280. He said to keep
checking the "news" section of the site. It will be posted at the time
that they are available for sale. 

-Jeff

>>I noticed on the Atlex site that clicking on Enhanced Archival Matt takes
you to Enhanced Matte Paper.<<

I saw the same thing last week when I ordered some paper.  Interestingly
enough, even though the links always send you to "enhanced" and that is what
I thought I ordered, I received 5 boxes of the EAM!

Doug