Digital BW, The Print

Ok beta testers...I know you are out there...what does everyone think?

http://www.piezography.com/piezography-piezotone.html

Robert

THEY DON'T CLOG!  and the blacks are stunning, just stunning... my ink of
choice, definately.

Carolyn

> 
> Ok beta testers...I know you are out there...what does everyone think?
> 
> http://www.piezography.com/piezography-piezotone.html
> 
> Robert

<carolynfrayn@s...> wrote:
> THEY DON'T CLOG!  and the blacks are stunning, just 
stunning... my ink of
> choice, definately.
> 
> Carolyn

Yep...they don't clog...even in a desert dry basement in NJ. I have 
no complaints other than they could be less expensive. Excellent 
blacks also. RIT is doing a longevity test on the inks.

The results of these inks are in this month's  - June - print 
exchange. Look for the Barn Window print for those who are 
participating.

Best,

John V.

> > 
> > Ok beta testers...I know you are out there...what does 
everyone think?

> > 
> > http://www.piezography.com/piezography-piezotone.html
> > 
> > Robert

This is cross posted from the piezo3000 list:

On 6/4/02 7:46 PM, "toomanyartists" <mh@...> wrote:

> Jon, as far as the new inks go, are they more neutral or are they more
> warm? Is there still a difference in tone on different papers?

In my opinion they are more neutral than the original Conetech inks.  They
do vary in their tone across papers.  I'd say it parallels the original inks
with the Hahnemuhle (e.g., Orwell, Photorag) and Legion (e.g., Somerset
Enhanced and Concorde Rag) papers being warmer than others (e.g., Museo,
Eclipse, Osprey, EAM, etc.).  I just printed on about 20 different papers
with the Piezotones using my 7000 last night...the inks didn't look bag on
one.  Hahnemuhle has broken the 1.8 dmax barrier.  The one I just can't get
enough of is a Gampi Japanese Paper...rice paper thin...simply beautiful
with the new inks.

Robert

On 6/4/02 6:21 PM, "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...> wrote:

> Ok beta testers...I know you are out there...what does everyone think?
> 
> http://www.piezography.com/piezography-piezotone.html
> 
> Robert
> 
>

> Robert Morrison wrote
> In my opinion they are more neutral than the original Conetech inks.  They
> do vary in their tone across papers.  I'd say it parallels the original
inks
> with the Hahnemuhle (e.g., Orwell, Photorag) and Legion (e.g., Somerset
> Enhanced and Concorde Rag) papers being warmer than others (e.g., Museo,
> Eclipse, Osprey, EAM, etc.).  I just printed on about 20 different papers
> with the Piezotones using my 7000 last night...the inks didn't look bag on
> one.  Hahnemuhle has broken the 1.8 dmax barrier.  The one I just can't
get
> enough of is a Gampi Japanese Paper...rice paper thin...simply beautiful
> with the new inks.

Where do you get the Gampi Japanese Paper?

Thanks
Bob Obenland

Robert,

I found them to be a great improvement over the original Piezo inks. I much
prefer the hue. No green cast and, very important, I am not seeing any
unpleasant metamerism. I think it looks good under all light sources. I am
very pleased with the prints I have made with it.

I got started late but have seen no clogging issues at all. I used a CIS on
a 1280 and it was up and printing with only 3 nozzle cleaning cycles.
Perfect nozzle checks since. This is similar to my experiences with the MIS
inks. Long term I would expect some minor clogging. After all, I get
clogging on my 1270 with Epson dye inks from time to time. Just part of
inkjet printing in general.

The color tone of the prints is very similar to MIS-VM with the warm curve
applied and to the 50/50 MIS-FS Standard/FS Neutral blend I loaded into
carts. Both of these do warm up with time though, so if the new Piezo is
more stable, it will be the ink set of choice in this hue range.

The blacks are very good indeed. I measured a Dmax of 1.7+ on EAM and 1.8+
on Photo Rag.

If I have any complaint, it is one that I see in all the ink sets. They are
too monochrome and are lacking in chromatic variation in comparison to
traditional photographic methods. I am waiting for the set that offers cool
highlights, red warm mid-tones and a hint of eggplant in the deep shadows.
But then I have peculiar tastes. <G>

Conetech has taken a major step in the right direction correcting the major
problems of clog and green cast while improving the blacks, adding a new hue
to the inks available for use with Piezo software, and giving a price
reduction. Basically they have listened to the customers and responded well.
If you go to their order page you will also see that a "selenium" and cool
neutral sets are to be available in July. With the warm and cool neutral
sets available you will have the option to mix your own hue. Very exciting
stuff! By August there will be 5 different ink sets available for the Piezo
driver. Good times for the users.

There is still a large price gap between the Piezo inks and the MIS inks. I
think this is fine. They both fill a market niche and I think that there is
room for both. Not everyone can afford or needs a Hasseblad to make great
photos. For myself, given the overall cost of digital printing, the cost
difference is not a deciding factor but I am very glad that lower priced
inks are available for people with a limited budget and especially for young
people who want to get started in grayscale printing.

It should be strongly noted that Conetech says these new inks are not
compatible with the old inks and they cannot be mixed. So if you are running
a CIS you will need to replace the cartridge portion of the system and
completely clean out your tubing. I used the new Piezo inks in a 1280 I had
previously been using with MIS-FS. In between the two inks I ran a couple of
purge pages with Epson carts. I don't know if this is necessary or not.

I am going to assume at this point that the new inks are not compatible with
the MIS inks either. However, the improved black of these new Piezo inks
would lead me to want to try replacing the black in my MIS-VM system with
the Piezo black or any of the MIS ink sets for that matter. I am also
wondering what I would get by hand loading cartridges with new Piezo in some
positions and MIS-FS Neutral others to get more of a range of hues in the
print from warm shades to cool highlights.

In total, the introduction of these new inks from Piezo is very, very
welcome and my congratulations to Conetech on their great new product. Good
work guys!

Martin Wesley
http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 04, 2002 6:21 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Piezotones--Let the reports begin


> Ok beta testers...I know you are out there...what does everyone think?
>
> http://www.piezography.com/piezography-piezotone.html
>
> Robert
>

On 6/4/02 8:24 PM, "Bob Obenland" <bobenland@...> wrote:

>> Robert Morrison wrote
>> In my opinion they are more neutral than the original Conetech inks.  They
>> do vary in their tone across papers.  I'd say it parallels the original
> inks
>> with the Hahnemuhle (e.g., Orwell, Photorag) and Legion (e.g., Somerset
>> Enhanced and Concorde Rag) papers being warmer than others (e.g., Museo,
>> Eclipse, Osprey, EAM, etc.).  I just printed on about 20 different papers
>> with the Piezotones using my 7000 last night...the inks didn't look bag on
>> one.  Hahnemuhle has broken the 1.8 dmax barrier.  The one I just can't
> get
>> enough of is a Gampi Japanese Paper...rice paper thin...simply beautiful
>> with the new inks.
> 
> Where do you get the Gampi Japanese Paper?
> 
Www.hiromipaper.com

The one I love is HM-5 Gampi-shi.  Its incredibly light and strong...and
amazingly gives a 1.53 dmax given that its uncoated...actually I think the
sizing agent is just good with the inks and acts as a coating.  It's
available in 25 x38" sheets. I've tried about 30 or 40 different Japanese
papers and this is by far the most printable. I've made books with ethereal
motion images and they are show stoppers.  The stuff is tricky...but not
impossible to feed in a desktop printer...but the 7000 sucks it right down
without any problem.

Robert

PS If you are ever in LA I'd love to take you to meet Hiromi...she's the
best and her store is a paper-o-philes heaven (or hell when the credit card
bill comes).

On 6/4/02 8:52 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

Thanks Martin, that was a great review...particularly helpful was your
describing the color with respect to a 50:50 FS/FS-N mix.

> If I have any complaint, it is one that I see in all the ink sets. They are
> too monochrome and are lacking in chromatic variation in comparison to
> traditional photographic methods. I am waiting for the set that offers cool
> highlights, red warm mid-tones and a hint of eggplant in the deep shadows.
> But then I have peculiar tastes. <G>

Well, all I can say is that the black is eggplant...as my hands can attest
after hand filling carts last night.

:-)

Robert

I have just uploaded an excel sheet with comparisons of the dmax possible 
with the new PiezoTones vs the old piezoBW inks. Since most beta testers 
found a significant increase in dmax, I'd say these aren't accidental. The tests 
were carried out on 1160 printers using the piezo plug in. One 1160 was 
loaded with the old inks via CIS while the other had the new inks in carts.

The file was uploaded twice, once as a stuffit archive and once zipped. It is in 
the files section inside the Ink-related folder (enter from the group home 
page).

I would second the opinion of others on this thread:  these inks are the way to 
go if you like their color.  They appear a bit less warm than the old piezos 
when they "mature", but as a result they are also more predictable and 
neutral.  I have put up a side by side pair of prints, not in a sunny window, but 
a very bright room that gets lots of diffused daylight from a south window and 
have watched the old piezos warm up and the 'Tones hold their  original 
"tones".  I'd say, so far so good! 

Inkjetmall is offering a 10% discount good until next Monday, so, if anyone is 
interested, this would be a good time to jump in.


Antonis

> Robert Morrison wrote
> Www.hiromipaper.com
>
> The one I love is HM-5 Gampi-shi.  Its incredibly light and strong...and
> amazingly gives a 1.53 dmax given that its uncoated...actually I think the
> sizing agent is just good with the inks and acts as a coating.  It's
> available in 25 x38" sheets. I've tried about 30 or 40 different Japanese
> papers and this is by far the most printable. I've made books with
ethereal
> motion images and they are show stoppers.  The stuff is tricky...but not
> impossible to feed in a desktop printer...but the 7000 sucks it right down
> without any problem.
>
> Robert
>
> PS If you are ever in LA I'd love to take you to meet Hiromi...she's the
> best and her store is a paper-o-philes heaven (or hell when the credit
card
> bill comes).

Great! Thanks. Been trying japanese papers on and off for a while.
Found a couple I liked but the fibers did tend to get caught (or swept) by
the
heads of my 3000... sometimes leaving inked "hairs" dangling from the print.
;-))

Thanks
Bob Obenland
New Hampshire

For my taste, the new PiezoTones are the closest thing I've seen to silver gelatin 
darkroom prints.  The neutral/warm tone is very much like that of selenium 
toned Ilford Multigrade Fiber, at least the ones I produce.  This is a significant 
issue, as I have never liked excessively warm prints, nor am I a fan of cool stuff 
either.  And the blacks are truly wonderful. Overall a greater impression of 
depth to the tonal range. So far none of my prints have shown any significant 
shifting.

It should be noted that for the first time, IJM is making the hex set available in 
bulk (4 oz. bottles) for those of us who run large format printers and wish to fill 
our own cartridges.  Pricewise this offers a significant savings and I applaud Jon 
for making this decision.  Not quite a match for the MIS's in cost, but for my 
money an impressive inkset at their pricepoint.

Phil
http://philbard.com

> I would second the opinion of others on this thread:  these inks are the way to 
> go if you like their color.  They appear a bit less warm than the old piezos 
> when they "mature", but as a result they are also more predictable and 
> neutral.  I have put up a side by side pair of prints, not in a sunny window, but 
> a very bright room that gets lots of diffused daylight from a south window and 
> have watched the old piezos warm up and the 'Tones hold their  original 
> "tones".  I'd say, so far so good! 
> 
> Inkjetmall is offering a 10% discount good until next Monday, so, if anyone is 
> interested, this would be a good time to jump in.

In a message dated 6/5/02 7:57:09 AM, bobenland@... writes:

>Great! Thanks. Been trying japanese papers on and off for a while.
>Found a couple I liked but the fibers did tend to get caught (or swept)
>by
>the
>heads of my 3000... sometimes leaving inked "hairs" dangling from the print.

That has been my experience with many of the Japanese papers as well... only 
the most tightly knit, hair-free of them can be run through an inkjet.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

Phil,

how practical is it to fill your own 7000 carts?  Inkjetmall won't have prefilled 
carts in for another 10days and I am considering cancelling my order and 
buying the 4 oz bottles - which are really meant for CIS use and seem too 
small as "bulk" goes (by MIS standards). Is MIS the best source of blanks and 
refill kits for the 7000/9000?


Antonis




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "pbard2002" <phil@p...> wrote:

> 
> It should be noted that for the first time, IJM is making the hex set available 
in 
> bulk (4 oz. bottles) for those of us who run large format printers and wish to 
fill 
> our own cartridges.  Pricewise this offers a significant savings and I applaud 
Jon 

> for making this decision.  Not quite a match for the MIS's in cost, but for my 
> money an impressive inkset at their pricepoint.
> 
> Phil
> http://philbard.com

It takes me about 20 minutes to fill 6 carts.  The empties are about $10
each from inkjetsupply.com


Robert

On 6/5/02 10:13 AM, "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@...> wrote:

> Phil,
> 
> how practical is it to fill your own 7000 carts?  Inkjetmall won't have
> prefilled 
> carts in for another 10days and I am considering cancelling my order and
> buying the 4 oz bottles - which are really meant for CIS use and seem too
> small as "bulk" goes (by MIS standards). Is MIS the best source of blanks and
> refill kits for the 7000/9000?
> 
> 
> Antonis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "pbard2002" <phil@p...> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> It should be noted that for the first time, IJM is making the hex set
>> available 
> in 
>> bulk (4 oz. bottles) for those of us who run large format printers and wish
>> to 
> fill 
>> our own cartridges.  Pricewise this offers a significant savings and I
>> applaud 
> Jon 
>> for making this decision.  Not quite a match for the MIS's in cost, but for
>> my 
>> money an impressive inkset at their pricepoint.
>> 
>> Phil
>> http://philbard.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
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Antonis,

It's very practical, and will save you money as well.  There are some issues to 
watch out for, such as making sure you have withdrawn the foam which 
inevitably forms inside the bladder so it will not introduce air into the 7000 lines.  
Also you need a scale so they are not overfilled (very important or ink will leak 
out of the heads).  Have already had this happen and it is not fatal, just a little 
messy.  The virgins I've used are from MIS, although I hear there are other 
vendors out there.  They are good for 6 refills or so before the rubber gasket 
becomes worn. Don't forget to buy a couple of their 60cc syringes.

Since ink is used in differing rates by each color position, filling your own allows 
better conservation.  All in all I think its the best way to go if you have the time 
for the refill.  Also, do it in a 16x20 darkroom tray so spills are not an issue.

Phil
http://philbard.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto" <antonisphoto@y...> 
wrote:

> Phil,
> 
> how practical is it to fill your own 7000 carts?  Inkjetmall won't have prefilled 
> carts in for another 10days and I am considering cancelling my order and 
> buying the 4 oz bottles - which are really meant for CIS use and seem too 
> small as "bulk" goes (by MIS standards). Is MIS the best source of blanks and 
> refill kits for the 7000/9000?
> 
> 
> Antonis

Greetings,

I have been refilling carts for my 7000 with MIS-FS from the 
beginning. Works quite well. I keep two sets of the carts, one in 
the machine and the other filled, so that they have a few days to 
settle down before I stick them into the machine.

Was initially concerned about the possibility of air in the lines, 
but have had no problems so far. Takes me about half hour to fill 
the set. A little messy, no more than filling regular carts. MIS has 
a good set of guidelines on their site.

Will probably try the Tones, but right now the MIS-FS and IP4 are 
giving me a nice print, probably wait to see how the new system 
shakes out a bit.

Butch Hulett

Thanks Phil, good suggestions (as expected!).

Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "pbard2002" <phil@p...> wrote:

> Antonis,
> 
> It's very practical, and will save you money as well.

Thanks, Butch, that's reassuring.

Antonis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "butchhul" <butchhul@a...> wrote:

> Greetings,
> 
> I have been refilling carts for my 7000 with MIS-FS from the 
> beginning. Works quite well.