Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 6/11/02 1:21:18 AM, antonisphoto@... writes:

>I only wish you were $400 away from a perfectly neutral grayscale using
>the 
>Epson driver! Unfortunately, what you are trying to do simply cannot be
>done 
>with the OEM driver - even if you bought $5000 worth of color management
>
>gear. People have come "close" and whether that's good enough depends on
>
>your particular needs. Some resort to "sepia" or other colorizations to
>mask 
>the grayscale shift.  I'd say you may try the Black only option - at least
>it won't 
>drift and shift across the scale.  Ultimately, you are not going to be
>as happy 
>as a mono hex set.

All true... if his expectations are for long term archival work without color 
shift due to differential fading. If all he wants is good grays for a 
reasonable length of time, then a spectro-build custom profile for his ink 
and paper combo will probably do the trick, and cost a lot less than four or 
five hundred bucks.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

The highest quality prints I've gotten to date are with the 1280 printer
and MIS hextone inks, with the MIS black replaced by Generations
"enhanced black". There are NO dots, anywhere in the print. You CAN get
great black and whites from the MIS Archival Color inks, IF you have a
professional profile made for them with the paper you want to use them
on. I use the Generations "Enhanced Black" even though the color inks
are MIS Archival inks. I use Paul Roark's cool and cold curves with the
Hextone inks and 1280 printer. 

Jerry

> I guess it will be MIS VM something or other pretty soon.  Would
> somebody please post a summary of the most successful VM ink and
> curve combinations for the 1280?
> 
> I've been using up the color inks printing test prints.  Last night I
> found that Norman Koren's color settings worked pretty well for not
> only color, but were better for B&W than his B&W settings (on a 1280,
> his were done on a 1270).  There's still the green-magenta shift, but
> not as much.  OK for showing friends, not quite good enough to hang
> on the wall.
> 
> --Peter
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "antonisphoto"
> <antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "kd7mw" <pklein@2...>
> wrote:
> > ........
> >
> > > Eventually I'll probably just get the MIS VM inks, but right now
> I
> > > want to use up the inks I already have, and I have some color I
> want
> > > to do.  If I could just use color inks for everything, that would
> be
> > > great, but I really don't want to buy $400 calibration software
> and
> > > equipment
> >
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > I only wish you were $400 away from a perfectly neutral grayscale
> using the
> > Epson driver! Unfortunately, what you are trying to do simply
> cannot be done
> > with the OEM driver - even if you bought $5000 worth of color
> management
> > gear. People have come "close" and whether that's good enough
> depends on
> > your particular needs. Some resort to "sepia" or other
> colorizations to mask
> > the grayscale shift.  I'd say you may try the Black only option -
> at least it won't
> > drift and shift across the scale.  Ultimately, you are not going to
> be as happy
> > as a mono hex set.
> >
> >
> > Antonis
> 
> 
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David,

If he only wants "good grays for a reasonable length of time", why not just
use the PS transfer function to get rid of the color in a grayscale strip?
I've done this reasonably successfully, and it costs nothing - apart from a
few sheets of paper and a little ink. After about a dozen tweaks to the
transfer curves, I could get a grayscale print that most people would say
was visually OK. No doubt you could still measure color casts, but they
weren't obvious any longer.

Bob Frost.

PS I'm not trying to put you out of business, but just curious as to why
this apparently little-used function isn't used more often. Obviously it
doesn't compete with quad and hex blacks for longevity, but unless you are
selling prints, that may not be essential, as you say.

----- Original Message -----
From: <CDTobie@...>

>
> In a message dated 6/11/02 1:21:18 AM, antonisphoto@... writes:
>
> >I only wish you were $400 away from a perfectly neutral grayscale using
> >the
> >Epson driver! Unfortunately, what you are trying to do simply cannot be
> >done
> >with the OEM driver - even if you bought $5000 worth of color management
> >
> >gear. People have come "close" and whether that's good enough depends on
> >
> >your particular needs. Some resort to "sepia" or other colorizations to
> >mask
> >the grayscale shift.  I'd say you may try the Black only option - at
least
> >it won't
> >drift and shift across the scale.  Ultimately, you are not going to be
> >as happy
> >as a mono hex set.
>
> All true... if his expectations are for long term archival work without
color
> shift due to differential fading. If all he wants is good grays for a
> reasonable length of time, then a spectro-build custom profile for his ink
> and paper combo will probably do the trick, and cost a lot less than four
or
> five hundred bucks.

In a message dated 6/14/02 10:18:22 AM, bobfrost@... writes:

>If he only wants "good grays for a reasonable length of time", why not
>just
>use the PS transfer function to get rid of the color in a grayscale strip?
>I've done this reasonably successfully, and it costs nothing - apart from
>a
>few sheets of paper and a little ink. After about a dozen tweaks to the
>transfer curves, I could get a grayscale print that most people would say
>was visually OK. No doubt you could still measure color casts, but they
>weren't obvious any longer.
>
Thats certainly an option, but its a trail and error thing that some users 
would have more luck with than others, and it has the disadvantage of not 
being previewed in Photoshop, only applying blindly on output. Then there are 
the issues of remembering to use it or not use it, and having to have 
different transfer curves for each paper, which is not much different than 
using profiles, admittedly, except that a profile based workflow is pretty 
common and obvious, and not too inconvenient, while a tranfer curve is an 
unusual item you need to remember seperately. The final arguement is that you 
really need to have a good profile for the printer for color images anyhow, 
and once you have it, applying it in the same manner to your grayscale images 
is easier than building and remembering to use a transfer curve.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

David,

What I haven't done yet is try my new ProfilerPro profiles for b&w work. If
this should solve the problem,  then I can see your point. But if someone
can't afford to make or buy profiles, then the transfer function will get
rid of the color casts in a grayscale print.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
From: <CDTobie@...>


 The final arguement is that you
> really need to have a good profile for the printer for color images
anyhow,
> and once you have it, applying it in the same manner to your grayscale
images
> is easier than building and remembering to use a transfer curve.