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"Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?"

"Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?"

2002-06-16 by Doug Fisher

There was an interesting article in the New York Times that I thought others
in this group might like to read.  While it might seem slightly off topic at
a first glance of the title, I think it has relevance considering our
ongoing discussions concerning quadtone acceptance in galleries, "is it
really a 'carbon pigment print," etc.

I have copied the text at the end of this message and I have copied the text
at the end of this message:
 http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/arts/design/16KIMM.html?8hpib

Doug

----------

Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?
By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN

LATELY, one thing after another \ufffd a show, a book \ufffd has been mysteriously
causing people to fret about painters, dead and alive, using "crutches" like
lenses, cameras and photographs, or possibly having used them.

It's 2002, isn't it? I'm guessing that psychoanalysts would diagnose this as
displaced anxiety.

Detractors of Gerhard Richter's retrospective, which recently closed at the
Museum of Modern Art in New York and opens at the Art Institute of Chicago
on Saturday, were fuming that his paintings looked "dead" because they
depended on photographs \ufffd worse, that this dependence betrayed an inability
to make an original image, as if an image, having first been captured
through a viewfinder, were no longer original, never mind that Mr. Richter
took most of the photographs too.

Before that, David Hockney caused an amusing stir by writing a book claiming
that old masters like Caravaggio and Holbein used lenses and other optical
aids to paint and draw. A vast conspiracy of silence persisted for centuries
among artists, who didn't want to own up to this fact. Not, Mr. Hockney
hastened to add, that he thought there was anything wrong with using cameras
and lenses. After all, he did the same thing. A big conference was convened
in New York. Scientists and historians took the stage, each thanking Mr.
Hockney for his stimulating ideas, many of the conferees then giving 10 or
15 reasons his theories made little or no sense in most instances \ufffd after
which artists in the audience, blithely ignoring what had just transpired,
rose to compliment Mr. Hockney for proving his case.

Now we await the Thomas Eakins show that started in Philadelphia and arrives
on Tuesday at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. We know for certain that like
Mr. Richter, Eakins, America's archetypal academic realist, sometimes
painted from projected photographs. (They were usually Eakins's own
photographs as well.) He didn't exactly hide the truth \ufffd he even required
his students to use photographs \ufffd but his wife tried to hide it after he
died.

Why the anxiety? When the photograph was invented, people declared the death
of painting. Who needed paintings to tell people what the world looked like
now that photographs could do the job better?

What actually transpired was predictable two-way traffic. Degas, having
picked up tips from both Japanese prints and the new instantaneous
photographs produced by boxy cameras set up on tripods, painted Vicomte
Ludovic Lepic on the Place de la Concorde in the mid-1870's. Lepic was near
the right edge of the picture, and another man at the other edge was nearly
cut out of the frame. The image resembled what Cartier-Bresson would take on
the spur of the moment by pulling his tiny Leica out of his pocket, except
that Degas painted Lepic before hand-held cameras were invented. Degas
learned from one kind of photography, then paved the way for another.

Meanwhile, he retreated to his studio to set up carefully staged
photographs, ghostly scenes, unlike his paintings, that looked eerier
precisely because they weren't painted by hand but made by a machine that
ostensibly showed the world just as it was. Since then, it has dawned on
more than a few art students who lack Degas's agility that it is easier, or
at least less time consuming, to snap a picture than to draw or paint one.

BUT this has not interrupted the continuing conversation across media, which
sometimes involves artists who don't even consciously realize the extent to
which they are involved in it. Cindy Sherman, having decided she had nothing
much to add as a painting student, picked up a camera. A few years ago at
the Met she happened onto a mid-19th-century photograph by William Lake
Price of someone dressed as Don Quixote, a picture derived from 19th-century
genre paintings. Ms. Sherman had never seen it before. The label said:
"Theatrical staging has found renewed relevance in the work of such
contemporaries as Cindy Sherman."

You may recall that critics of the German photographer Andreas Gursky's
show, which appeared last year at the Modern and opens on Saturday at the
Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago, complained that his big glossy
pictures seemed too stagy. Mr. Gursky digitally alters some of his
photographs. Even when his pictures are unaltered, they look too good to be
true. He emulates Mr. Richter, who, of course, copies photographs. In
different ways, they are making a similar point: that art, whether it's a
photograph or a painting, involves manipulation \ufffd of color, perspective,
scale \ufffd which becomes the true measure of its ingenuity and content.

Our displaced anxiety must partly entail a fear of being tricked (mistaking
a tracing for a freehand drawing) and, more particularly, a fear of
technology: a concern that what makes us human is being sacrificed to the
brilliance and reliability of the machine. New digital technology, with its
nearly limitless capacity to blur fiction and fact, has only enhanced the
fear. But all this misses the point. Realism is a moving target. Skill is
more than manual dexterity. Tools are tools, whether they are brushes or
lenses. What artists make of them is the issue. The beauty part of art
remains its capacity to accommodate different ways of seeing.

I have just spent several happy months watching the realist artist Philip
Pearlstein paint two models. Week in, week out, Mr. Pearlstein labored to
capture what he saw, which kept changing under his gaze, the way anything
does when you stare at it for a very long time. He was especially interested
in the effects that a photograph can't account for \ufffd the perceptual
distortions that happen at the edges of one's vision \ufffd and in conveying the
pleasure that comes from suddenly noticing what was right in front of your
nose, an emotional effect translated through intense scrutiny.

Fidelity in art, it turns out, is about integrity, not optical mimicry. If I
were an artist, I suppose it would be comforting to think that Van Eyck and
Hals did what they did with mirrors. Anything to narrow the unbridgeable
gulf between greatness and me. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts to
genius.

RE: [Digital BW] "Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?"

2002-06-16 by Tim Atherton

I saw David Hockney's really interesting 2 hr TV programme on the BBC last
year about his theories - very coll. (must be coming to a PBS station
sometime?)

His book is well worth a read - certainly makes you think

(lovely things like - how come everyone in paintings suddenly becomes left
handed around 1600 and something (or whatever) - the use of mirrors to
project an image. One of his examples has something like 6 left handed
people and a left-handed monkey!

Or why do some classic paintings display depth of field problems, carefully
painted in...

tim
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Doug Fisher [mailto:dougfisher@...]
> Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 9:55 AM
> To: Digital B/W Printing List
> Subject: [Digital BW] "Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?"
>
>
> There was an interesting article in the New York Times that I
> thought others
> in this group might like to read.  While it might seem slightly
> off topic at
> a first glance of the title, I think it has relevance considering our
> ongoing discussions concerning quadtone acceptance in galleries, "is it
> really a 'carbon pigment print," etc.
>
> I have copied the text at the end of this message and I have
> copied the text
> at the end of this message:
>  http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/arts/design/16KIMM.html?8hpib
>
> Doug
>
> ----------
>
> Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?
> By MICHAEL KIMMELMAN
>
> LATELY, one thing after another \ufffd a show, a book \ufffd has been mysteriously
> causing people to fret about painters, dead and alive, using
> "crutches" like
> lenses, cameras and photographs, or possibly having used them.
>
> It's 2002, isn't it? I'm guessing that psychoanalysts would
> diagnose this as
> displaced anxiety.
>
> Detractors of Gerhard Richter's retrospective, which recently
> closed at the
> Museum of Modern Art in New York and opens at the Art Institute of Chicago
> on Saturday, were fuming that his paintings looked "dead" because they
> depended on photographs \ufffd worse, that this dependence betrayed an
> inability
> to make an original image, as if an image, having first been captured
> through a viewfinder, were no longer original, never mind that Mr. Richter
> took most of the photographs too.
>
> Before that, David Hockney caused an amusing stir by writing a
> book claiming
> that old masters like Caravaggio and Holbein used lenses and other optical
> aids to paint and draw. A vast conspiracy of silence persisted
> for centuries
> among artists, who didn't want to own up to this fact. Not, Mr. Hockney
> hastened to add, that he thought there was anything wrong with
> using cameras
> and lenses. After all, he did the same thing. A big conference
> was convened
> in New York. Scientists and historians took the stage, each thanking Mr.
> Hockney for his stimulating ideas, many of the conferees then giving 10 or
> 15 reasons his theories made little or no sense in most instances \ufffd after
> which artists in the audience, blithely ignoring what had just transpired,
> rose to compliment Mr. Hockney for proving his case.
>
> Now we await the Thomas Eakins show that started in Philadelphia
> and arrives
> on Tuesday at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. We know for certain
> that like
> Mr. Richter, Eakins, America's archetypal academic realist, sometimes
> painted from projected photographs. (They were usually Eakins's own
> photographs as well.) He didn't exactly hide the truth \ufffd he even required
> his students to use photographs \ufffd but his wife tried to hide it after he
> died.
>
> Why the anxiety? When the photograph was invented, people
> declared the death
> of painting. Who needed paintings to tell people what the world
> looked like
> now that photographs could do the job better?
>
> What actually transpired was predictable two-way traffic. Degas, having
> picked up tips from both Japanese prints and the new instantaneous
> photographs produced by boxy cameras set up on tripods, painted Vicomte
> Ludovic Lepic on the Place de la Concorde in the mid-1870's.
> Lepic was near
> the right edge of the picture, and another man at the other edge
> was nearly
> cut out of the frame. The image resembled what Cartier-Bresson
> would take on
> the spur of the moment by pulling his tiny Leica out of his pocket, except
> that Degas painted Lepic before hand-held cameras were invented. Degas
> learned from one kind of photography, then paved the way for another.
>
> Meanwhile, he retreated to his studio to set up carefully staged
> photographs, ghostly scenes, unlike his paintings, that looked eerier
> precisely because they weren't painted by hand but made by a machine that
> ostensibly showed the world just as it was. Since then, it has dawned on
> more than a few art students who lack Degas's agility that it is
> easier, or
> at least less time consuming, to snap a picture than to draw or paint one.
>
> BUT this has not interrupted the continuing conversation across
> media, which
> sometimes involves artists who don't even consciously realize the
> extent to
> which they are involved in it. Cindy Sherman, having decided she
> had nothing
> much to add as a painting student, picked up a camera. A few years ago at
> the Met she happened onto a mid-19th-century photograph by William Lake
> Price of someone dressed as Don Quixote, a picture derived from
> 19th-century
> genre paintings. Ms. Sherman had never seen it before. The label said:
> "Theatrical staging has found renewed relevance in the work of such
> contemporaries as Cindy Sherman."
>
> You may recall that critics of the German photographer Andreas Gursky's
> show, which appeared last year at the Modern and opens on Saturday at the
> Museum of Contemporary Art in Chicago, complained that his big glossy
> pictures seemed too stagy. Mr. Gursky digitally alters some of his
> photographs. Even when his pictures are unaltered, they look too
> good to be
> true. He emulates Mr. Richter, who, of course, copies photographs. In
> different ways, they are making a similar point: that art, whether it's a
> photograph or a painting, involves manipulation \ufffd of color, perspective,
> scale \ufffd which becomes the true measure of its ingenuity and content.
>
> Our displaced anxiety must partly entail a fear of being tricked
> (mistaking
> a tracing for a freehand drawing) and, more particularly, a fear of
> technology: a concern that what makes us human is being sacrificed to the
> brilliance and reliability of the machine. New digital
> technology, with its
> nearly limitless capacity to blur fiction and fact, has only enhanced the
> fear. But all this misses the point. Realism is a moving target. Skill is
> more than manual dexterity. Tools are tools, whether they are brushes or
> lenses. What artists make of them is the issue. The beauty part of art
> remains its capacity to accommodate different ways of seeing.
>
> I have just spent several happy months watching the realist artist Philip
> Pearlstein paint two models. Week in, week out, Mr. Pearlstein labored to
> capture what he saw, which kept changing under his gaze, the way anything
> does when you stare at it for a very long time. He was especially
> interested
> in the effects that a photograph can't account for \ufffd the perceptual
> distortions that happen at the edges of one's vision \ufffd and in
> conveying the
> pleasure that comes from suddenly noticing what was right in front of your
> nose, an emotional effect translated through intense scrutiny.
>
> Fidelity in art, it turns out, is about integrity, not optical
> mimicry. If I
> were an artist, I suppose it would be comforting to think that
> Van Eyck and
> Hals did what they did with mirrors. Anything to narrow the unbridgeable
> gulf between greatness and me. Unfortunately, there are no shortcuts to
> genius.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
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>
>
>

Re: [Digital BW] "Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?"

2002-06-17 by Alan Zinn

At 11:54 AM 6/16/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>There was an interesting article in the New York Times that I thought others
>in this group might like to read.  While it might seem slightly off topic at
>a first glance of the title, I think it has relevance considering our
>ongoing discussions concerning quadtone acceptance in galleries, "is it
>really a 'carbon pigment print," etc.
>
>I have copied the text at the end of this message and I have copied the text
>at the end of this message:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/arts/design/16KIMM.html?8hpib
>
>Doug
>


Doug,

Thanks for the article.  The public naivete regarding artist's methods is
amazing to me.  It's the 21'st Century and such a dead issue gets space in
the Times??? Sheesh!! We photographers know that there has always been a
symbiotic relationship between photography and painting.  Making pictures
for painters was Atget's livelihood. To choose not to use photographs as
Philip Pearlstein apparently has is an aesthetic choice not an ethical or
symbolic choice as some would have it. I'm a big fan of his work and see the
influence of photography in it. How could any painting NOT be influenced by
photography? I'm looking forward to seeing Richter in Chicago at the end of
this month. The landscapes in his book look great to me - I hope the real
paintings do too. 

AZ




Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
http://www.panoramacamera.us
         or
keyword.com lookaround

Re:"Does a Painter With a Camera Cheat?"

2002-06-17 by Sanders-Herring

"There was an interesting article in the New York
Times that I thought others
in this group might like to read.  While it might
seem slightly off topic at
a first glance of the title, I think it has
relevance considering our
ongoing discussions concerning quadtone
acceptance in galleries, "is it
really a 'carbon pigment print," etc.

I have copied the text at the end of this message
and I have copied the text
at the end of this message:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/16/arts/design/16KIMM.html?8hpib

Doug"

Thanx for the article, Doug.
It's always good to see someone from the
mainstream press come to the realization that a
tool is a tool is a tool. How an image is made is
irrelevant. If it speaks to you, it's art.
-Alan

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