Digital BW, The Print

Mike,

>... sample carts of MIS VM-sepia ... 1280 and MAC ...
>the vmm8-w.acv curve which should give a
>neutral print. My test print showed a lot of posterizing. ...

I have found that the warm curves often need tweaking before they will work
well with the vm-s inkset.  Take a look at the "gree" curves in the "warm"
and "mw" curves.  A "green" (toner) curve that is about half way between
these might work well.

I get the best neutral print by having just a little toner in the print all
the way.  So, the curve rises steeply from the black end, and then, it turns
rather sharply toward, becoming nearly horizontal around 50%.

I, unfortunately, do not have a 1280 to help make the curves.  Try Tyler's
Wm04 curve for the 1280.  It might be very close to what I have in mind.  It
is "warm" without being as extreme as I tried to make the "warm" curves for
the standard MIS VM inkset.  This curve is posted in the forum Files
section.  If you can't find it I can send a copy to you.

Good luck.  Let us know how the Tyler Wm04 works for you.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I tried Tyler's curves, but they create only more problems, 
unfortunately.  A MAC/PC thing maybe? So I took your other 
suggestion and started adjusting the green curve on both the 
vmm8-w and vmm8-mw. I immediately started getting better 
results and a couple of prints came out not bad, however, I still 
have not solved the problem. On an IR image with dark sky that 
lightens towards the horizon, I get posterization no matter what I 
do to the green curve, I suspect that the other curves might need 
adjusting as well, but I have no idea where to begin. Is this type 
of  tweaking with quad/hex blacks normal when getting a system 
set up?

mike




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> I have found that the warm curves often need tweaking before 
they will work
> well with the vm-s inkset.  Take a look at the "gree" curves in 
the "warm"
> and "mw" curves.  A "green" (toner) curve that is about half way 
between
> these might work well.
> 
> I get the best neutral print by having just a little toner in the print 
all
> the way.  So, the curve rises steeply from the black end, and 
then, it turns
> rather sharply toward, becoming nearly horizontal around 50%.
> 
> I, unfortunately, do not have a 1280 to help make the curves.  
Try Tyler's
> Wm04 curve for the 1280.  It might be very close to what I have 
in mind.  It
> is "warm" without being as extreme as I tried to make the 
"warm" curves for
> the standard MIS VM inkset.  This curve is posted in the forum 
Files

> section.  If you can't find it I can send a copy to you.
> 
> Good luck.  Let us know how the Tyler Wm04 works for you.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

> I tried Tyler's curves, but they create only more problems,
> unfortunately.  A MAC/PC thing maybe?

snip
> 
> mike

it doesn't matter what platform you use those curves on, they are created
properly so are therefore cross platform.  What matters is that you use them
for the paper and inks they were profiled and created for.

Carolyn

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn Frayn 
<carolynfrayn@s...> wrote:

> 
> it doesn't matter what platform you use those curves on, they 
are created
> properly so are therefore cross platform.  What matters is that 
you use them
> for the paper and inks they were profiled and created for.
> 
> Carolyn

Thanks, that is good to know.

Perhap my problem is that they where created for  the blue-toned 
mix and not the sepia-toned mix? I guess I should have done a 
bit more research before choosing the VM-sepia (I do like the 
color possibilities with this ink). I am in over my head as far as 
trying to make my own curves. I am just starting to get 
comfortable with levels let alone deal with curves :).  

mike

> Thanks, that is good to know.
Welcome.

> 
> Perhap my problem is that they where created for  the blue-toned
> mix and not the sepia-toned mix? I guess I should have done a
> bit more research before choosing the VM-sepia (I do like the
> color possibilities with this ink).
They are for the MIS-VM's if I'm remembering right... I don't use those
inks, I use piezo. I've used MIS-FS but wasn't happy with them, I've never
tried the VM set but the prints Martin made with that ink set (that I have
seen) with another set of Tyler's curves, are lovely.

>  I am in over my head as far as
> trying to make my own curves. I am just starting to get
> comfortable with levels let alone deal with curves :).
tonal adjustments using either curves or levels are your most effective
method of image correction, manipulation, both being non-linear, mostly
non-destructive if used correctly... different beast from creating curves
for partitioned workflows.

Best,
Carolyn

The vm-sepia inkset uses the same "densities" as the standard MIS-VM inkset.
As such, I hoped that the curves that currently existed would be at least
close.  In fact, you can see the posted scan of the Epson 870 vm-s test
strips that used the standard MIS VM curves for that machine -- they are
close, with no significant flat spots or posterization.  They are a bit
darker than the standard MIS VM test strips, but well within a useable
range.  So, the first thing to check if the vm-sepia inkset produces bad
results with all the standard vm curves is the settings in the driver.

What I have noticed most is that the standard MIS VM "warm" curve -- which
withholds the toner -- often does not work as well as the other standard
curves.  By withholding the toner, the vm-s prints should be relatively
neutral.

The reality of these -- and no doubt most other -- inks is that while the
densities of the vm-sepia match those of the standard MIS VM inks at one
point, they may not match at another level of application.  That is, the
response curves of the two inksets are not completely linear.   I suspect
that because of this, the more radical the curves, the more likely that the
non-linear responses of the inks on the paper will show up.

Many of the MIS VM "warm" curves I've done have very radical "green" curves
that totally withhold the toner until absolutely necessary to "turn on" the
black ink.  While this often works for the MIS VM inkset (depending on
whether the particular driver can handle that steep a curve without
artifacts), it can result in less-than-optimal tone distributions in the
vm-sepia inkset (midtones that are too cool and make the shadows look
warm -- which they are), and sometimes -- but not always -- uneven density
distributions.

With my quad printers (1160 & 3000) I get very nice "neutral" curves by
putting some sepia toner in the mix all the way.  The resulting prints are
dead neutral (X-Rite spectrophotometer readings: c=m=y) in the midtones,
rolling off to the paper white in the highlights and black ink warm (y = c +
0.03) starting at about 75%.

The 870 is the first hextone machine I've tried to adjust, and I must say
that the neutral curve did not end up quite as nicely as I would have liked.
The shadows get slightly warmer than they do with the quadtone machines,
with a peak of about 0.04 units warm at 90%.  For example, the 870 neutral
curve I made has X-Rite readings at 90% as follows: c=1.38, m=1.41, y=1.42.
This is OK, but will get more so with warming.  For example, in the fade
test currently being done with this inkset, after the first 100 hours the
90% warmth was up to 0.05 units.  (70% was dead neutral.)

(A new "non-warming"  toner has knocked 0.01 units or warmth off the 90%
point at start and at 100 hours, but we'll just have to see how it looks
after much more testing.  The "non-warming" (really just more stable over
time) toner has a slightly lower gamut, but still has very ample tone to
make full sepia prints.)

So, what I have found, in general, is that making a curve that is between
the "warm" and "mw" curves usually makes for better "neutral" vm-s prints.
However, the hextone machines may not do quite as well at the neutral end of
the spectrum as do the quadtone machines.  See the 870 vm-s test strips that
are posted.  Go to the Files section of this forum:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
Then follow the links to
Ink Sets > MIS > MIS Variable Mix > MIS VM Neutral-Sepia.  The image is
called, "VM-Sepia-Standard 870 v. 1 curves.jpg."

To make a better neutral curve for the vm-sepia inkset, start with the
better of the "warm" or "mw" curve and move the "green" (toner curve)
points -- very little if at all in the deep shadows, but so that they roll
off to close to horizontal by about the 50% point, but still not at the top
of the curves box.  For each green point that is moved, for example, up if
starting with the "mw" curve, move the blue point curve that many points
down to offset the density change.  The blue curve ink (yellow ink position)
in a hextone vm machine is the lightest gray ink.  It is a hair lighter than
the dark toner, and a bit darker than the light/photo toner (green ink
curve/magenta ink position).  So, offsetting moves keep the densities about
right.  Some final tweaking will be necessary.  Print 21-step test strips to
see the results of moves.

These Photoshop adjustment curves can be a bit tricky.  For those who have
not worked with curves, you might want to check out how the vm-s inkset is
working for others with the machine you have before diving in.

The vm-sepia is what I use as my regular inkset in the 3000, and I'm very
pleased with it.  However, with other machines, there may not be curves that
have been fine-tuned for this inkset.

Good luck.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

Thank you for the very good post about the nature of the RGB separation
curves used with the VM inks and your suggestions on how to make
adjustments. I have added your post to the Files section in folder:

Files > Ink Sets > MIS > MIS Variable Mix

As you and I have discussed, there may be a possibility that a reduced gamut
toner for the VM will require less radical curves in the "mw" and "wm" tonal
ranges. I know you have a ways to go before you finalize your non-warming
toner but can you give us some info on what you have tried so far? Warming
aside, I would like to give the set a try with the reduce gamut toner. Can
you share your recipe for the new toner in the M and M+ position for the hex
printers?

Thanks,
Martin


----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] MIS VM-sepia -- hextone neutral prints


> The vm-sepia inkset uses the same "densities" as the standard MIS-VM
inkset.
> As such, I hoped that the curves that currently existed would be at least
> close.  In fact, you can see the posted scan of the Epson 870 vm-s test
> strips that used the standard MIS VM curves for that machine -- they are
> close, with no significant flat spots or posterization.  They are a bit
> darker than the standard MIS VM test strips, but well within a useable
> range.  So, the first thing to check if the vm-sepia inkset produces bad
> results with all the standard vm curves is the settings in the driver.
>
> What I have noticed most is that the standard MIS VM "warm" curve -- which
> withholds the toner -- often does not work as well as the other standard
> curves.  By withholding the toner, the vm-s prints should be relatively
> neutral.
>
> The reality of these -- and no doubt most other -- inks is that while the
> densities of the vm-sepia match those of the standard MIS VM inks at one
> point, they may not match at another level of application.  That is, the
> response curves of the two inksets are not completely linear.   I suspect
> that because of this, the more radical the curves, the more likely that
the
> non-linear responses of the inks on the paper will show up.
>
> Many of the MIS VM "warm" curves I've done have very radical "green"
curves
> that totally withhold the toner until absolutely necessary to "turn on"
the
> black ink.  While this often works for the MIS VM inkset (depending on
> whether the particular driver can handle that steep a curve without
> artifacts), it can result in less-than-optimal tone distributions in the
> vm-sepia inkset (midtones that are too cool and make the shadows look
> warm -- which they are), and sometimes -- but not always -- uneven density
> distributions.
>
> With my quad printers (1160 & 3000) I get very nice "neutral" curves by
> putting some sepia toner in the mix all the way.  The resulting prints are
> dead neutral (X-Rite spectrophotometer readings: c=m=y) in the midtones,
> rolling off to the paper white in the highlights and black ink warm (y = c
+
> 0.03) starting at about 75%.
>
> The 870 is the first hextone machine I've tried to adjust, and I must say
> that the neutral curve did not end up quite as nicely as I would have
liked.
> The shadows get slightly warmer than they do with the quadtone machines,
> with a peak of about 0.04 units warm at 90%.  For example, the 870 neutral
> curve I made has X-Rite readings at 90% as follows: c=1.38, m=1.41,
y=1.42.
> This is OK, but will get more so with warming.  For example, in the fade
> test currently being done with this inkset, after the first 100 hours the
> 90% warmth was up to 0.05 units.  (70% was dead neutral.)
>
> (A new "non-warming"  toner has knocked 0.01 units or warmth off the 90%
> point at start and at 100 hours, but we'll just have to see how it looks
> after much more testing.  The "non-warming" (really just more stable over
> time) toner has a slightly lower gamut, but still has very ample tone to
> make full sepia prints.)
>
> So, what I have found, in general, is that making a curve that is between
> the "warm" and "mw" curves usually makes for better "neutral" vm-s prints.
> However, the hextone machines may not do quite as well at the neutral end
of
> the spectrum as do the quadtone machines.  See the 870 vm-s test strips
that
> are posted.  Go to the Files section of this forum:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> Then follow the links to
> Ink Sets > MIS > MIS Variable Mix > MIS VM Neutral-Sepia.  The image is
> called, "VM-Sepia-Standard 870 v. 1 curves.jpg."
>
> To make a better neutral curve for the vm-sepia inkset, start with the
> better of the "warm" or "mw" curve and move the "green" (toner curve)
> points -- very little if at all in the deep shadows, but so that they roll
> off to close to horizontal by about the 50% point, but still not at the
top
> of the curves box.  For each green point that is moved, for example, up if
> starting with the "mw" curve, move the blue point curve that many points
> down to offset the density change.  The blue curve ink (yellow ink
position)
> in a hextone vm machine is the lightest gray ink.  It is a hair lighter
than
> the dark toner, and a bit darker than the light/photo toner (green ink
> curve/magenta ink position).  So, offsetting moves keep the densities
about
> right.  Some final tweaking will be necessary.  Print 21-step test strips
to
> see the results of moves.
>
> These Photoshop adjustment curves can be a bit tricky.  For those who have
> not worked with curves, you might want to check out how the vm-s inkset is
> working for others with the machine you have before diving in.
>
> The vm-sepia is what I use as my regular inkset in the 3000, and I'm very
> pleased with it.  However, with other machines, there may not be curves
that
> have been fine-tuned for this inkset.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mmrroo


A huge apology is in order. I retried Tyler's curve WM04 for the 
1280 using the VM-sepia inks and got great results!  What I 
forgot to do the first time was change my printer settings to those 
used by Tyler, instead I used the MIS printer settings. Stupid of 
me, shows I still have a lot to learn :). Sorry for the wrong info and 
thanks to Paul, Carolyn for their help and Tyler for making  the 
curve. I will try the other curves as well, but first need to go out 
and buy some more paper.

regards,

Mike


<mike.rott@u...> wrote:

> Paul,
> 
> I tried Tyler's curves, but they create only more problems, 
> unfortunately.  
> 
> 
>