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2002-07-11 by Jerry Olson
To the group: If anybody has the new 2200 printer, would they give some first impressions, and especially let us know the size and price of the individual inktanks? Thanks, Jerry Apparently my 1160 quad printer is now dying, and I'll need a replacement very soon.
2002-07-13 by Doug I.
And using this model, every photographer who offers a low-cost portrait session, then charges $25 for a 50-cent print should be summarily executed. Especially if they did not personally manufacture their own paper and chemicals and hand-grind the lens on their homemade enlarger. ;-) All I can say is welcome to the big, bad world of free enterprise. Pricing low to get them in the proverbial door is hardly dishonest, or even particularly original. No one is hiding the cost of replacement ink and then saying "surprise, sucker!" And I find it very hard to feel sympathy for those who demand the car with the biggest engine, then complain about the cost of gas. Caveat emptor, Doug Keith wrote:
> EPSON doesn't make the pigments or hadn't ever done so AFAIK Robert.. > > They simply design the carrier and printer engine, etc.. > > So, they are padding the costs for the parts they don't really make and > working hard to prevent consumers from using those same consumables > direct from the original manufacturer or other 3rd parties.. > > I'm not saying they don't have a right to make money. I'm just saying > that it would be MORE upfront, more honest, and less anti-competitive > if the costs lay where they fell.. Cost-shifting, BTW, or moving > decrementing entries from one column to another is EXACTLY the practice > WorldCom and other large firms have gotten caught doing. The moving of > costs from periodical to capital expenses doesn't change revenue, it > just boosts perceived profits... Not much different ethically from > making a printer appear much cheaper than it is by artificially > depressing the initial purchase price and artificially increasing > consumable costs (certainly though EPSON does not hurt as many interests > as our new Robber Barons have - EPSON just soaks users for costs that > most never even dreamt of).. AND the current EU investigation into > pricing and anti-competitive practices by EPSON, HP, and Lexmark proves > that others (some with a lot of legal and market clout) agree.. > > EPSON makes great products which I use happily. They have driven the > digital printing prosumer market. That doesn't make every move, even if > justifiable, the best ethical choice. > > Keith
2002-07-13 by Tim Atherton
ink costs, printer costs and so on ...and so on and so on Welcome to the capitalist free-market economy guys. It's the way the system works. You only have one vote in it all - your dollar. Easiest thing, take it and go and buy Lexmark if you don't like Epson :-) tim
2002-07-13 by Truman Prevatt
Lets see what was that analysis I saw some time back. If you bought all the parts to make a Ford that cost 20 K from the Ford dealer, it would cost you 250 K. Common practice - and very legal. Truman Doug I. wrote:
> And using this model, every photographer who offers a low-cost portrait > session, then charges $25 for a 50-cent print should be summarily > executed. > Especially if they did not personally manufacture their own paper and > chemicals and hand-grind the lens on their homemade enlarger. ;-) > > All I can say is welcome to the big, bad world of free enterprise. Pricing > low to get them in the proverbial door is hardly dishonest, or even > particularly original. No one is hiding the cost of replacement ink > and then > saying "surprise, sucker!" And I find it very hard to feel sympathy for > those who demand the car with the biggest engine, then complain about the > cost of gas. > > Caveat emptor, > Doug > >
2002-07-14 by Lloyd O'Daniel
Legal (for now), but not ethical. Besides, your analogy is faulty. No one is complaining about the cost of Epson parts for the printer (heads, rollers, etc.). Unlike Ford, Epson is gouging for ink (a consumable) not parts. Auto makers are not allowed to mfg vehicles that run on a high-priced, single-sourced proprietary fuel, much less build in smart technology that defeats the ability to use third party fuel. If Ford, for example, attempted this and particularly if their cars were as superior as Epsons are for photo printing, the DOJ would exceed the speed of light to file anti-trust action. Lloyd
-----Original Message----- From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...] Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 5:17 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2200 Printer Lets see what was that analysis I saw some time back. If you bought all the parts to make a Ford that cost 20 K from the Ford dealer, it would cost you 250 K. Common practice - and very legal. Truman Doug I. wrote: > And using this model, every photographer who offers a low-cost portrait > session, then charges $25 for a 50-cent print should be summarily > executed. > Especially if they did not personally manufacture their own paper and > chemicals and hand-grind the lens on their homemade enlarger. ;-) > > All I can say is welcome to the big, bad world of free enterprise. Pricing > low to get them in the proverbial door is hardly dishonest, or even > particularly original. No one is hiding the cost of replacement ink > and then > saying "surprise, sucker!" And I find it very hard to feel sympathy for > those who demand the car with the biggest engine, then complain about the > cost of gas. > > Caveat emptor, > Doug > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=225674.2075964.3644785.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=1705 019182:HM/A=1153156/R=0/*http://www.lensexpress.com/tracker/trackclick.a spx?Page=ACUVUE%202%20Colors&AffUrl=273&AffCode=14> Click here to visit our exclusive feature of ACUVUE2 Colours at LensExpress.com! Click here to find your contact lenses! Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames." - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2002-07-19 by Gregg Mastorakos
From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:55:12 -0500 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: 2200 Printer Lloyd, No one is stopping Ford from making a car that runs only on "Ford Fuel" except Ford itself. It would be prefectly legal and ethical. They realize that the market allows freedom of choice in buying a vehicle and since they don't have a monopoly it would be suicide on their part. The fact that Epson makes the best product for your needs doesn't make it a monopoly or mean that they have to give up the right to profit from that. When another printer manufacturer makes an equivilent product that uses third party (cheaper) inks, Epson will change their ways. I'm on your side in wishing that Epson would lower prices on inks and I have thought of buying other printers but I don't because Epson has the best product for me. Gregg " Auto makers are not allowed to mfg vehicles that run on a high-priced, single-sourced proprietary fuel, much less build in smart technology that defeats the ability to use third party fuel. If Ford, for example, attempted this and particularly if their cars were as superior as Epsons are for photo printing, the DOJ would exceed the speed of light to file anti-trust action. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...] Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 5:17 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2200 Printer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2002-07-20 by Lloyd O'Daniel
Gregg, I'm an engineer, not a lawyer. I recall reading somewhere on one of these lists some time ago that auto mfgs were forbidden from doing this because of transportation being linked to national security, etc. I suppose it would be a DOT reg. But my source and I could be wrong. The same description you wrote below could be said of Microsoft. They don't have an absolute monopoly either. There's Mac OS, Linux, etc. They do enjoy a strong majority in the pc OS market, just as Epson does in the photo printer market. I see no reason why Epson should have immunity for their strong-arm tactics while Microsoft is taking considerable grief for theirs. I understand the EU anti-trust guys are looking into this. I hope ours do also. Lloyd
-----Original Message----- From: Gregg Mastorakos [mailto:lightpainter@...] Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 1:24 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2200 Printer From: "Lloyd O'Daniel" <lodaniel@...> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 21:55:12 -0500 To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: 2200 Printer Lloyd, No one is stopping Ford from making a car that runs only on "Ford Fuel" except Ford itself. It would be prefectly legal and ethical. They realize that the market allows freedom of choice in buying a vehicle and since they don't have a monopoly it would be suicide on their part. The fact that Epson makes the best product for your needs doesn't make it a monopoly or mean that they have to give up the right to profit from that. When another printer manufacturer makes an equivilent product that uses third party (cheaper) inks, Epson will change their ways. I'm on your side in wishing that Epson would lower prices on inks and I have thought of buying other printers but I don't because Epson has the best product for me. Gregg " Auto makers are not allowed to mfg vehicles that run on a high-priced, single-sourced proprietary fuel, much less build in smart technology that defeats the ability to use third party fuel. If Ford, for example, attempted this and particularly if their cars were as superior as Epsons are for photo printing, the DOJ would exceed the speed of light to file anti-trust action. Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: Truman Prevatt [mailto:tprevatt@...] Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 5:17 PM To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 2200 Printer [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=228862.2128520.3581629.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=1705 019182:HM/A=1155068/R=0/*http://adfarm.mediaplex.com/ad/ck/990-1736-1039 -302> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames." - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2002-07-20 by Lawrence Smith
On 7/13/02 11:52 AM, "Doug I." <doug@...> wrote: > And using this model, every photographer who offers a low-cost portrait > session, then charges $25 for a 50-cent print Just to throw in a little something. My 9600 arrived a few days ago and if your 50-cent prints are from a 2200 using the new ultrachrome inks, you and your clients will be very happy. I printed a 24x30 B&W portrait last night using photoblack and lustre paper. While I am getting a little blocking in a the blacks below 10% or so, the prints are stunning. I have heard from another 9600 owner that a good profile goes a long way toward opening up the deep shadows and producing a smooth step wedge. The when I get my printer profiled I will do a side by side comparison of piezotones and the ultrachromes. The color prints are simply amazing as well. It is 98% of what I had been looking for in a multiuse printer... Lawrence ---------------------------------- Lawrence W. Smith Photography http://www.lwsphoto.com lsmith@... ----------------------------------
2002-07-20 by Richard Sintchak
Saturday, July 20, 2002, 3:18:42 AM, Lawrence Smith wrote: LS> Just to throw in a little something. My 9600 arrived a few days ago and if LS> your 50-cent prints are from a 2200 using the new ultrachrome inks, you and LS> your clients will be very happy. I printed a 24x30 B&W portrait last night LS> using photoblack and lustre paper. While I am getting a little blocking in LS> a the blacks below 10% or so, the prints are stunning. I have heard from LS> another 9600 owner that a good profile goes a long way toward opening up the LS> deep shadows and producing a smooth step wedge. LS> The when I get my printer profiled I will do a side by side comparison of LS> piezotones and the ultrachromes. LS> The color prints are simply amazing as well. LS> It is 98% of what I had been looking for in a multiuse printer... LS> Lawrence How's the metamerism? Best regards, Richard mailto:richard@...
2002-07-20 by Lawrence Smith
On 7/20/02 10:30 AM, "Richard Sintchak" <richard@...> wrote: > How's the metamerism? > > Best regards, > Richard Very well controlled. I have viewed B&W and color prints under tungsten, fluorescent and daylight and found the shifts to be minor. It's what the 2000/7500/9500 series should have been. Lawrence ---------------------------------- Lawrence W. Smith Photography http://www.lwsphoto.com lsmith@... ----------------------------------