Digital BW, The Print

I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great 
knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be 
someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III Umax 
and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and 
Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite 
satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the b&w 
printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I print 
monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of 
paper; I have tried duotone method, and I obtain just 2 tones on the 
print...The best result actually is this:I scan b&w negative in mode 
CMYK (Binuscan do this), so I have on my monitor a b&w image but 
CMYK, than I print it in color (power RIP). The print made in this 
way is less "green" and more gray, but it is quite "flat". Before to 
buy another printer b&w dedicated, with black and gray inks, I would 
like to explore all the possibilities of the six color cartridges. Is 
someone of you passed in this situation? Many thanks of your help. 
Daniele Martini.

www.danburholder.com has ALL THE ANSWERS for B&W negatives, but also 
applies for printing positives.  GT


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., d.martini@c... wrote:
> I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great 
> knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be 
> someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III 
Umax 
> and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and 
> Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite 
> satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the b&w 
> printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I print 
> monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of 
> paper; I have tried duotone method, and I obtain just 2 tones on 
the 
> print...The best result actually is this:I scan b&w negative in 
mode 
> CMYK (Binuscan do this), so I have on my monitor a b&w image but 
> CMYK, than I print it in color (power RIP). The print made in this 
> way is less "green" and more gray, but it is quite "flat". Before 
to 
> buy another printer b&w dedicated, with black and gray inks, I 
would 
> like to explore all the possibilities of the six color cartridges. 
Is 
> someone of you passed in this situation? Many thanks of your help. 
> Daniele Martini.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., rigutoes@y... wrote:
> www.danburholder.com has ALL THE ANSWERS for B&W negatives, but 
also 
> applies for printing positives.  GT
> 


Could you check the URL please, didn´t find it.
Bernd

Try http://www.danburkholder.com

Dan has a truly amazing book about making black and white negatives for
contact printing. I'm not sure that is what d.martini is after.

Sounds like your files need adjustments prior to printing. Finding your
black and white points with levels or making a wee contrast curve will help
the flatness. Channel Mixing will give you a better BW or Duotone than
desaturation or straight gray scale conversion. I always print from RGB to
Epson's as they'll convert your file on the fly. If you print from CMYK the
printer driver converts again to CMYK giving you color casts on BW or
Duotone images.


Regards, Carolyn

> 
> Could you check the URL please, didn´t find it.
> Bernd

Daniele,

Sorry if this post shows up twice, first one was sent several hours ago 
but hasn't shown up.

Hopefully some of the folks on this list will be able to help you 
improve your output issues, but I just wanted to throw in 2 cents worth 
on the "neutral" subject.  I have yet to see a CMYK printer that can 
print a truly neutral B&W image without some color problems.  It is 
very difficult to make up a grayscale image out of CMYK dots since they 
need to be in absolutely perfect balance over the entire tonal range. 
This is a hardware, not software, problem.  The slightest shift will 
cause a cast or crossover (highs one color, shadows another).  Perhaps 
you can do it but I would encourage you to try to get a look at some 
actual quadblack images.  You will be amazed by them.  They do have 
their own set of issues, some inks don't print well on certain papers, 
DMax can be weak sometimes, etc., but overall it's a great system.  You 
do need a separate printer, but if you can dig up an 1160, you're in 
business for cheap...

Good luck,
Phil
http://philbard.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., d.martini@c... wrote:

> I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great 
> knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be 
> someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III Umax 
> and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and 
> Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite 
> satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the b&w 
> printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I print 
> monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of 
> paper; I have tried duotone method, and I obtain just 2 tones on the 
> print...The best result actually is this:I scan b&w negative in mode 
> CMYK (Binuscan do this), so I have on my monitor a b&w image but 
> CMYK, than I print it in color (power RIP). The print made in this 
> way is less "green" and more gray, but it is quite "flat". Before to 
> buy another printer b&w dedicated, with black and gray inks, I would 
> like to explore all the possibilities of the six color cartridges. Is 
> someone of you passed in this situation? Many thanks of your help. 
> Daniele Martini.

Carolyn, that book looks very interesting and it opens me a new 
perspective, soon i'll buy; but I am afraid to be misunderstood (my 
english is not so good...): I need to print black and white shots on 
paper,( I scan MY NEGATIVE ) and when the image on the video is 
perfect (my monitor is not very well calibrated, but with color shots 
it works good), the black is looking black and the general tone seems 
to be correct,than I obtain (on Epson Photo Paper, usually) a 
beautiful green print!!! I think that it depends by the paper, but I 
don 't find a way to correct it. Before to buy Power Rip 2000 
software I was using the Epson drivers and various ICC profiles, but 
nothing is changed. I also use Channel mixing to desaturate, and 
Duotone could be the right answer: but if I try with a "warm" black 
to compensate the "green", the results in never a "good grey". My 
secret dream is to obtain something like platinum or palladium 
prints!.....With Duotone usually I have Duo...tones: the colors are 
separated, some zones appear "warm" and other "cold".  I would like 
to find a curve or a right Photoshop setting......I repeat: on the 
monitor the b&w image is correct and beautiful, on paper(I have 
changed 6 or 7 brands) it is greeny. Correcting it with a very little 
Magenta, the results is not satisfying.  My feeling is that I am 
doing a very big mistake, so big that I can't see it!!! So I ask you 
or to other experts, if you print b&w prints on Epson by color 
cartridges, which are, in sequence, the operations you do ? And how 
is setted up your Photoshop? Best regards.Daniele.
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Try http://www.danburkholder.com
> 
> Dan has a truly amazing book about making black and white negatives 
for
> contact printing. I'm not sure that is what d.martini is after.
> 
> Sounds like your files need adjustments prior to printing. Finding 
your
> black and white points with levels or making a wee contrast curve 
will help
> the flatness. Channel Mixing will give you a better BW or Duotone 
than
> desaturation or straight gray scale conversion. I always print from 
RGB to
> Epson's as they'll convert your file on the fly. If you print from 
CMYK the
> printer driver converts again to CMYK giving you color casts on BW 
or

> Duotone images.
> 
> 
> Regards, Carolyn
> 
> 
> > 
> > Could you check the URL please, didn´t find it.
> > Bernd

Daniele,

I have to agree with Phil's message below. Using a color ink set to 
get a true neutral B&W print is very difficult and frustrating. Many 
of us have started that way and wound up with a grayscale ink set in 
a second printer.

You mentioned that you monitor color calibration was not that good. 
In order to accomplish what you are trying to do, you need perfect 
color calibration through out your system. The closer you get to a 
neutral image the more visible small color shifts become. The cost of 
a full, good quality color management system is much more than a 
second printer setup for just B&W printing.

New 1160's are still available in Europe and I believe at good 
prices. For a six color the 1290 would be the way to go although you 
could not go with the Piezo inks right now, they are planning a 
release for the 1280 (US version of the 1290) in the near future.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Phil Bard" <phil@p...> 
wrote:
> Daniele,
> 
> Sorry if this post shows up twice, first one was sent several hours 
ago 
> but hasn't shown up.
> 
> Hopefully some of the folks on this list will be able to help you 
> improve your output issues, but I just wanted to throw in 2 cents 
worth 
> on the "neutral" subject.  I have yet to see a CMYK printer that 
can 
> print a truly neutral B&W image without some color problems.  It is 
> very difficult to make up a grayscale image out of CMYK dots since 
they 
> need to be in absolutely perfect balance over the entire tonal 
range. 
> This is a hardware, not software, problem.  The slightest shift 
will 
> cause a cast or crossover (highs one color, shadows another).  
Perhaps 
> you can do it but I would encourage you to try to get a look at 
some 
> actual quadblack images.  You will be amazed by them.  They do have 
> their own set of issues, some inks don't print well on certain 
papers, 
> DMax can be weak sometimes, etc., but overall it's a great system.  
You 
> do need a separate printer, but if you can dig up an 1160, you're 
in 
> business for cheap...
> 
> Good luck,
> Phil
> http://philbard.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., d.martini@c... wrote:
> > I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great 
> > knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be 
> > someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III 
Umax 
> > and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and 
> > Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite 
> > satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the 
b&w 
> > printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I 
print 
> > monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of 
> > paper; I have tried duotone method, and I obtain just 2 tones on 
the 
> > print...The best result actually is this:I scan b&w negative in 
mode 
> > CMYK (Binuscan do this), so I have on my monitor a b&w image but 
> > CMYK, than I print it in color (power RIP). The print made in 
this 
> > way is less "green" and more gray, but it is quite "flat". Before 
to 
> > buy another printer b&w dedicated, with black and gray inks, I 
would 
> > like to explore all the possibilities of the six color 
cartridges. Is 
> > someone of you passed in this situation? Many thanks of your 
help. 
> > Daniele Martini.

> Message: 1
>    Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:14:51 -0000
>    From: d.martini@...
> Subject: Print B&W with Epson 5000 color cartridges
>
> I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great
> knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be
> someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III Umax
> and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and
> Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite
> satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the b&w
> printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I print
> monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of
> paper;
>
Daniele,

For what it's worth, I've been enjoying remarkable success with a
technique apparently suggested recently by Paul Caponigro in *Camera
Arts* (I've not seen the article, but Martin Wesley has, and he
suggested a starting point on this list).

The trick is simple enough: convert your image to RGB (if you're working
in greyscale) just before printing, and add a Levels adjustment layer.
Set the gamma of the red channel to 1.05, and the gamma of the blue
channel to 1.10. The screen image will take on a tone, but the neutral
print will not reflect the green cast characteristic of Epson OEM inks.
Try a print. My last BW printed neutrally with the red gamma set to 1.07
and the blue 1.12 with third-party dye inks on my Epson 1160.
I'm printing on Epson Photo Paper SO41141-60.

Bob Bollini

Hi Daniele,

I understood you well indeed. Someone else linked you to Dan's site and
book, I just corrected the link. I have gotten a lot from Dan's book but it
is not what you are after for printing BW "prints." I was interested in gum
printing when I read his book.

I get some decent duotones and lovely B&W from my Epson 2000P if I do not
view them in daylight.   I also get rich B&W without color shift or color
cast problems from my EX and 1200 using Epson dye inks when archival
qualities are not an issue.

It is important to print from an RGB file, not grayscale or CMYK as the
conversion from the latter two files causes unsightly shifting.

If you want my little workflow for printing B&W prints with color dye inks
on Epson Photo Paper I would be happy to write it up this weekend and send
it to you.


Regards,
Carolyn

> Carolyn, that book looks very interesting and it opens me a new
> perspective, soon i'll buy; but I am afraid to be misunderstood (my
> english is not so good...): I need to print black and white shots on
> paper,( I scan MY NEGATIVE ) and when the image on the video is
> perfect (my monitor is not very well calibrated, but with color shots
> it works good), the black is looking black and the general tone seems
> to be correct,than I obtain (on Epson Photo Paper, usually) a
> beautiful green print!!! I think that it depends by the paper, but I
> don 't find a way to correct it. Before to buy Power Rip 2000
> software I was using the Epson drivers and various ICC profiles, but
> nothing is changed. I also use Channel mixing to desaturate, and
> Duotone could be the right answer: but if I try with a "warm" black
> to compensate the "green", the results in never a "good grey". My
> secret dream is to obtain something like platinum or palladium
> prints!.....With Duotone usually I have Duo...tones: the colors are
> separated, some zones appear "warm" and other "cold".  I would like
> to find a curve or a right Photoshop setting......I repeat: on the
> monitor the b&w image is correct and beautiful, on paper(I have
> changed 6 or 7 brands) it is greeny. Correcting it with a very little
> Magenta, the results is not satisfying.  My feeling is that I am
> doing a very big mistake, so big that I can't see it!!! So I ask you
> or to other experts, if you print b&w prints on Epson by color
> cartridges, which are, in sequence, the operations you do ? And how
> is setted up your Photoshop? Best regards.Daniele.

Bob,

Thanks for passing that on to Daniele. I have been meaning to make 
sure she knew of that method. I just got at copy of "Real World 
Photoshop 6" and glancing though it, they seem to have a decent 
section on working with Duotones as well as tons of other excellent 
Photoshop advice. Might be worth checking out.

Thank you for the update on your workflow. Which third party inks are 
you using for you B&W prints?

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Bollini 
<rbollini@n...> wrote:
> > Message: 1
> >    Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:14:51 -0000
> >    From: d.martini@c...
> > Subject: Print B&W with Epson 5000 color cartridges
> >
> > I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great
> > knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be
> > someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III 
Umax
> > and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and
> > Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite
> > satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the 
b&w
> > printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I 
print
> > monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of
> > paper;
> >
> Daniele,
> 
> For what it's worth, I've been enjoying remarkable success with a
> technique apparently suggested recently by Paul Caponigro in *Camera
> Arts* (I've not seen the article, but Martin Wesley has, and he
> suggested a starting point on this list).
> 
> The trick is simple enough: convert your image to RGB (if you're 
working
> in greyscale) just before printing, and add a Levels adjustment 
layer.
> Set the gamma of the red channel to 1.05, and the gamma of the blue
> channel to 1.10. The screen image will take on a tone, but the 
neutral
> print will not reflect the green cast characteristic of Epson OEM 
inks.
> Try a print. My last BW printed neutrally with the red gamma set to 
1.07

> and the blue 1.12 with third-party dye inks on my Epson 1160.
> I'm printing on Epson Photo Paper SO41141-60.
> 
> Bob Bollini

Martin

Other than the different color management in PS 6 which I came to understand
by researching Digital Dog and The Computer Darkroom do you feel there is
any reason to purchase Real World Photoshop 6 if I have already read and
cherish Real World Photoshop 5?

Also Paul Cap's new book "Adobe Photoshop Master Class" is excellent.


Thank you,
Carolyn

> Bob,
> 
> Thanks for passing that on to Daniele. I have been meaning to make
> sure she knew of that method. I just got at copy of "Real World
> Photoshop 6" and glancing though it, they seem to have a decent
> section on working with Duotones as well as tons of other excellent
> Photoshop advice. Might be worth checking out.
> 
> Thank you for the update on your workflow. Which third party inks are
> you using for you B&W prints?
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Bollini
> <rbollini@n...> wrote:
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 08:14:51 -0000
>>> From: d.martini@c...
>>> Subject: Print B&W with Epson 5000 color cartridges
>>> 
>>> I am just new in this group, and I see that everybody have great
>>> knowledge about b&w digital printing, so I think there will be
>>> someone who could advise me. I scan my films by a Powerlook III
> Umax
>>> and Binuscan Photoperfect, then I print them by an Epson 5000 and
>>> Power RIP 2000 software (with Photoshop 6): normally I am quite
>>> satisfied of the results in color . The trouble begins with the
> b&w
>>> printing: if I print only with black the result is poor, if I
> print
>>> monochrome the result is almost "green", regardless the type of
>>> paper;
>>> 
>> Daniele,
>> 
>> For what it's worth, I've been enjoying remarkable success with a
>> technique apparently suggested recently by Paul Caponigro in *Camera
>> Arts* (I've not seen the article, but Martin Wesley has, and he
>> suggested a starting point on this list).
>> 
>> The trick is simple enough: convert your image to RGB (if you're
> working
>> in greyscale) just before printing, and add a Levels adjustment
> layer.
>> Set the gamma of the red channel to 1.05, and the gamma of the blue
>> channel to 1.10. The screen image will take on a tone, but the
> neutral
>> print will not reflect the green cast characteristic of Epson OEM
> inks.
>> Try a print. My last BW printed neutrally with the red gamma set to
> 1.07
>> and the blue 1.12 with third-party dye inks on my Epson 1160.
>> I'm printing on Epson Photo Paper SO41141-60.
>> 
>> Bob Bollini
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Carolyn,

How about writing it up and posting it on the list? This is 
definitely dead on topic and there have been many questions about 
doing this. I really would like to see how you have approached the 
problem.

Thanks,
Martin Wesley


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Hi Daniele,
> 
> I understood you well indeed. Someone else linked you to Dan's site 
and
> book, I just corrected the link. I have gotten a lot from Dan's 
book but it
> is not what you are after for printing BW "prints." I was 
interested in gum
> printing when I read his book.
> 
> I get some decent duotones and lovely B&W from my Epson 2000P if I 
do not
> view them in daylight.   I also get rich B&W without color shift or 
color
> cast problems from my EX and 1200 using Epson dye inks when archival
> qualities are not an issue.
> 
> It is important to print from an RGB file, not grayscale or CMYK as 
the
> conversion from the latter two files causes unsightly shifting.
> 
> If you want my little workflow for printing B&W prints with color 
dye inks
> on Epson Photo Paper I would be happy to write it up this weekend 
and send
> it to you.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Carolyn
> 
> 
> 
(snip)

Carolyn,

I really can't answer that one since I only seriously got into 
Photoshop with 5.5 and then shortly to 6.0, so I am still very much a 
novice. Hopefully some of the more experienced members can give you a 
knowledgeable answer on that one.

I have seen "Adobe Photoshop Master Class" but haven't bitten yet. It 
is on the list though.

For me I need to spend more time on the software at this point. I 
have somehow managed to collect a large number of Photoshop books 
that have been barely looked at. I think that without some experience 
most of the books are hard to follow. Either too simple or too hard 
or too full of things I am not interested in. (Do I really want to 
know how to put the fish head on the dog in the picture?) As I 
scanned through "Real World Photoshop 6" I found several points that 
made me perk up and think, "That sounds useful!" Maybe it is just a 
matter of timing and the book is a good match to my current skill 
level.

Let me know if you don't get an answer to your question.

Martin



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> Martin
> 
> Other than the different color management in PS 6 which I came to 
understand
> by researching Digital Dog and The Computer Darkroom do you feel 
there is
> any reason to purchase Real World Photoshop 6 if I have already 
read and
> cherish Real World Photoshop 5?
> 
> Also Paul Cap's new book "Adobe Photoshop Master Class" is 
excellent.
> 
> 
> Thank you,
> Carolyn
> 
> 
(snip)

Thanks Martin,

I started in PS 4 and found the Photoshop Bible by Deke McClelland very
valuable. It is huge but as I had no classroom experience found it
indespensible to start with. Is this one you have in the closet (the 6th
Bible that is)?

I don't remember seeing any fish headed dogs... just some very funky
pumpkins.

Carolyn

> I really can't answer that one since I only seriously got into
> Photoshop with 5.5 and then shortly to 6.0, so I am still very much a
> novice. Hopefully some of the more experienced members can give you a
> knowledgeable answer on that one.
> 
> I have seen "Adobe Photoshop Master Class" but haven't bitten yet. It
> is on the list though.
> 
> For me I need to spend more time on the software at this point. I
> have somehow managed to collect a large number of Photoshop books
> that have been barely looked at. I think that without some experience
> most of the books are hard to follow. Either too simple or too hard
> or too full of things I am not interested in. (Do I really want to
> know how to put the fish head on the dog in the picture?) As I
> scanned through "Real World Photoshop 6" I found several points that
> made me perk up and think, "That sounds useful!" Maybe it is just a
> matter of timing and the book is a good match to my current skill
> level.
> 
> Let me know if you don't get an answer to your question.
> 
> Martin