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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
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From: "scho_2000" <scho@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:13 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "flyfishingusa2002"
<tflyfish@c...>
> wrote:
> > There is lots of dicussion about the 2200 and it's pros and cons.
> > But has anyone actually used one yet? If you have please let us know
> > what your opinion is.
> > Thanks
> > Barry
> Just received mine yesterday.  I've only made a couple of BW prints so
far, but
> neutrality is quite good using the canned profile for enhanced matte and I
> couldn't detect any metamerism nor posterization.  Blacks are a little
weak, but
> I don't have any matte black ink yet, which I hope will improve the black
dmax.
> My 1270 is still set up for MIS VM printing with Paul's curves so I'll do
some
> comparisons soon.

Hi,

Could I get you to send me or Paul Roark some 21-step wedges from your 2200
on Enhanced Matte with your current inks and then with the matte black inks?
I would love to get some spectrophotometer readings from the output of this
printer and to convince Paul to some comparative fade testing.

Thanks,

Martin Wesley

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 8/1/02 8:15:49 PM, scho@... writes:

>I've only made a couple of BW prints so far, but 
>neutrality is quite good using the canned profile for enhanced matte and
>I 
>couldn't detect any metamerism nor posterization. 

Hold a B&W print under a tungsten light, and see if it shows a purple cast, 
or in outside open shade, and see if it shows a green cast.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

[Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by scho_2000

> Hold a B&W print under a tungsten light, and see if it shows a purple cast, 
> or in outside open shade, and see if it shows a green cast.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@d...

Just tried the open shade/tungsten comparison on two 2200 B&W prints 
(archival matte, printed with the enhanced matte-PK profile).  Under tungsten I 
can see a very slight (really slight) purple cast overall and in open shade the 
prints look neutral to warm, but not green.  Under strong halogen lighting or in 
bright sun I can see some slight magenta/green color crossover in some 
areas of the prints.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 8/2/02 1:54:31 PM, scho@... writes:

>Just tried the open shade/tungsten comparison on two 2200 B&W prints 
>(archival matte, printed with the enhanced matte-PK profile).  Under tungsten
>I 
>can see a very slight (really slight) purple cast overall and in open shade
>the 
>prints look neutral to warm, but not green.  Under strong halogen lighting
>or in 
>bright sun I can see some slight magenta/green color crossover in some
>
>areas of the prints.

Two issues, really: slight metamerism in the new "metamerism-free" inks, and 
slight crossovers in the new "perfect profiles". We all knew perfection was a 
bit much to ask, the question now is how acceptable the real world results 
are to individual users.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by GJ Kunze

I made a couple of prints that look real good under daylight, but go slightly magenta under tungsten, and more so under flourescent. Thesev are monochrome prints using the 2200 driver.  
It's not why I bought the machine, so I'm not a whole lot dissapointed. They are miles away from the metamerism of the 5500.
George                                                                               --- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: CDTobie@...
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:20 PM
To: scho@...; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?


In a message dated 8/1/02 8:15:49 PM, scho@... writes:

>I've only made a couple of BW prints so far, but  
>neutrality is quite good using the canned profile for enhanced matte and
>I  
>couldn't detect any metamerism nor posterization.  

Hold a B&W print under a tungsten light, and see if it shows a purple cast,  
or in outside open shade, and see if it shows a green cast.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by GJ Kunze

Did I mention it was premium luster paper?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: CDTobie@...
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:20 PM
To: scho@...; DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?


In a message dated 8/1/02 8:15:49 PM, scho@... writes:

>I've only made a couple of BW prints so far, but  
>neutrality is quite good using the canned profile for enhanced matte and
>I  
>couldn't detect any metamerism nor posterization.  

Hold a B&W print under a tungsten light, and see if it shows a purple cast,  
or in outside open shade, and see if it shows a green cast.

C. David Tobie
Design Cooperative
CDTobie@...

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- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by scho_2000

> Two issues, really: slight metamerism in the new "metamerism-free" inks, 
and 
> slight crossovers in the new "perfect profiles". We all knew perfection was a 
> bit much to ask, the question now is how acceptable the real world results 
> are to individual users.
> 
> C. David Tobie
> Design Cooperative
> CDTobie@d...
Probably quite acceptable for the casual BW printer and not quite acceptable 
for the purist.  I compared a favorite image today printed on both the 2200 and 
my 1270 with MIS VM.  The VM neutral/warm is probably the closest 
comparison for overall tone.  Side by side I prefer the VM print because of the 
deeper blacks, but I still have to wait to get my matte black ink for the 2200 for 
another comparison.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by Truman Prevatt

If I take - which I have done - a print for a collection of prints I 
have by Howard Bond, a fairly reasonable photographer and a good 
printer, and view them in strong sunlight, then tungsten light, then 
warm florescent light, then cold florescent light, then open shade 
"skylight," I am going to have a different color cast on the prints 
since the light that is being reflected off of them is different. No 
passive reflective medium can reflect neutral gray independent of the 
light source. The "color shift" (which it is not really shifting any 
colors - it's only reflecting what is incident on it ) may be subtle but 
it will be there. Even Ansal Adams notes this in "The Print" where he 
states, "I consider the best gallery illumination a mixture of daylight 
and tungsten lighting. Prints that are displayed under tungsten light 
will appear warmer in tone than under daylight illumination, say a north 
skylight. Daylight alone is often too "cold" for optimum display 
effects."  The "shift" may or may not be more pronounced in the 2200, 
but it's there in all black and white media.

My viewing area is a mixture of open skylight with reflections off 
cypress walls and halogen track lighting. Cypress wood imparts a warm 
tone to the light in the house as it does to any reflected light off the 
track lighting.  I personally prefer prints on the cool side - I do not 
like the to coin a term from Ansal Adams "olive green" cast of warm tone 
photographs. That's why all my silver prints are toned pretty heavily in 
selenium toner. My question is can the 2200 be used to produce what ever 
type as far as warmth or coolness of  B and W prints I would like or do 
I need to go the 1280 route with an MIS hextone setup?

Any thoughts on this. I don't want to make a 600 dollar mistake which is 
about what either path will cost.

Truman

scho_2000 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Two issues, really: slight metamerism in the new "metamerism-free" 
> inks,
> and
> > slight crossovers in the new "perfect profiles". We all knew 
> perfection was a
> > bit much to ask, the question now is how acceptable the real world 
> results
> > are to individual users.
> >
> > C. David Tobie
> > Design Cooperative
> > CDTobie@d...
> Probably quite acceptable for the casual BW printer and not quite 
> acceptable
> for the purist.  I compared a favorite image today printed on both the 
> 2200 and
> my 1270 with MIS VM.  The VM neutral/warm is probably the closest
> comparison for overall tone.  Side by side I prefer the VM print 
> because of the
> deeper blacks, but I still have to wait to get my matte black ink for 
> the 2200 for
> another comparison.

[Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-02 by flyfishingusa2002

I too am in the market for a new printer, but it must be capable of 
producing B/W prints at least to the standard of my 1160 or my 3000. 
At the moment I am not hearing that. 
I agree that both traditional prints and Piezo prints will both show 
some color shifting under different viewing lights. With the current 
inks available, most are perfectly acceptable and give a good gamma. 
The question that I still have is:- Is the 2200 better, or not, than 
the exsiting solutions?"

Barry Foster
Who Dares Wins
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Truman Prevatt 
<tprevatt@m...> wrote:
> If I take - which I have done - a print for a collection of prints 
I 
> have by Howard Bond, a fairly reasonable photographer and a good 
> printer, and view them in strong sunlight, then tungsten light, 
then 
> warm florescent light, then cold florescent light, then open shade 
> "skylight," I am going to have a different color cast on the 
prints 
> since the light that is being reflected off of them is different. 
No 
> passive reflective medium can reflect neutral gray independent of 
the 
> light source. The "color shift" (which it is not really shifting 
any 
> colors - it's only reflecting what is incident on it ) may be 
subtle but 
> it will be there. Even Ansal Adams notes this in "The Print" where 
he 
> states, "I consider the best gallery illumination a mixture of 
daylight 
> and tungsten lighting. Prints that are displayed under tungsten 
light 
> will appear warmer in tone than under daylight illumination, say a 
north 
> skylight. Daylight alone is often too "cold" for optimum display 
> effects."  The "shift" may or may not be more pronounced in the 
2200, 
> but it's there in all black and white media.
> 
> My viewing area is a mixture of open skylight with reflections off 
> cypress walls and halogen track lighting. Cypress wood imparts a 
warm 
> tone to the light in the house as it does to any reflected light 
off the 
> track lighting.  I personally prefer prints on the cool side - I 
do not 
> like the to coin a term from Ansal Adams "olive green" cast of 
warm tone 
> photographs. That's why all my silver prints are toned pretty 
heavily in 
> selenium toner. My question is can the 2200 be used to produce 
what ever 
> type as far as warmth or coolness of  B and W prints I would like 
or do 
> I need to go the 1280 route with an MIS hextone setup?
> 
> Any thoughts on this. I don't want to make a 600 dollar mistake 
which is 
> about what either path will cost.
> 
> Truman
> 
> scho_2000 wrote:
> 
> > > Two issues, really: slight metamerism in the new "metamerism-
free" 
> > inks,
> > and
> > > slight crossovers in the new "perfect profiles". We all knew 
> > perfection was a
> > > bit much to ask, the question now is how acceptable the real 
world 
> > results
> > > are to individual users.
> > >
> > > C. David Tobie
> > > Design Cooperative
> > > CDTobie@d...
> > Probably quite acceptable for the casual BW printer and not 
quite 
> > acceptable
> > for the purist.  I compared a favorite image today printed on 
both the 
> > 2200 and
> > my 1270 with MIS VM.  The VM neutral/warm is probably the closest
> > comparison for overall tone.  Side by side I prefer the VM print 
> > because of the
> > deeper blacks, but I still have to wait to get my matte black 
ink for 
> > the 2200 for
> > another comparison.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-03 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: <CDTobie@...>
To: <scho@...>; <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?


(snip)
>
> Two issues, really: slight metamerism in the new "metamerism-free" inks,
and
> slight crossovers in the new "perfect profiles". We all knew perfection
was a
> bit much to ask, the question now is how acceptable the real world results
> are to individual users.
>
David,

I suspect that it will be just fine for many users and unacceptable to some
others. When you stop an think about it, the percentage of the population
that has ever seen a single quality B&W print is probably pretty low. So in
general people whose perception of B&W printing is from magazines may be
quite thrilled with the 2200.

Martin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?

2002-08-03 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 1:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 2200 Has anyone used one yet?


> If I take - which I have done - a print for a collection of prints I
> have by Howard Bond, a fairly reasonable photographer and a good
> printer, and view them in strong sunlight, then tungsten light, then
> warm florescent light, then cold florescent light, then open shade
> "skylight," I am going to have a different color cast on the prints
> since the light that is being reflected off of them is different. No
> passive reflective medium can reflect neutral gray independent of the
> light source. The "color shift" (which it is not really shifting any
> colors - it's only reflecting what is incident on it ) may be subtle but
> it will be there. Even Ansal Adams notes this in "The Print" where he
> states, "I consider the best gallery illumination a mixture of daylight
> and tungsten lighting. Prints that are displayed under tungsten light
> will appear warmer in tone than under daylight illumination, say a north
> skylight. Daylight alone is often too "cold" for optimum display
> effects."  The "shift" may or may not be more pronounced in the 2200,
> but it's there in all black and white media.

Truman,

You are absolutely correct but what we generally mean when talking about
metamerism is that the hue of the print shifts in a direction or amount not
in keeping with the color of the light source. Such as a print that looks
warmer in daylight and cooler in tungsten light or becomes excessively cool
in daylight or turns purple under tungsten light.
>
> My viewing area is a mixture of open skylight with reflections off
> cypress walls and halogen track lighting. Cypress wood imparts a warm
> tone to the light in the house as it does to any reflected light off the
> track lighting.  I personally prefer prints on the cool side - I do not
> like the to coin a term from Ansal Adams "olive green" cast of warm tone
> photographs. That's why all my silver prints are toned pretty heavily in
> selenium toner. My question is can the 2200 be used to produce what ever
> type as far as warmth or coolness of  B and W prints I would like or do
> I need to go the 1280 route with an MIS hextone setup?
>
> Any thoughts on this. I don't want to make a 600 dollar mistake which is
> about what either path will cost.

From what you have said you might be happiest with the Selenium PiezoTone
inks in a 1280. I also tone silver prints heavily and prefer Oriental paper
over the Ilford which has an olive cast to my eye. Like you my prints hang
on a wood (knotty pine) wall under halogen and tungsten spots with minimal
daylight. The Selenium PT on Photo Rag doesn't match any of my silver prints
but it falls within the range nicely and does not look out of place on the
same wall. You can get a lot of variation in hue depending upon the paper
you use.

Martin Wesley

(snip)

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