Digital BW, The Print

About six weeks ago I switched fro the original piezography inks 
to the the new Piezotone inks.  Initially I was very pleased that my 
prints weren't continuously changing color and the new tone of 
the inks is much closer to the way my wet/darkroom prints look.  
The blacks are better and I didn't have to wait two weeks for the 
print to stabilize although it never really did.  Recently I have
been printing a group of images that have a lot of subtle 
variations from the midtones to the 3/4 tones.  What I am noticing 
is the new inks don't have as smooth a scale between these 
tones.  The prints are showing noise or clipping between these 
tones.  I was wondering if anybody else was experiencing this 
problem?  Do the new selenium inks do this as well?  I would 
greatly appreciate comments on this.

Thanks,
Michael

www.michaelfaye.com

On 8/7/02 3:25 AM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...> wrote:

> What I am noticing
> is the new inks don't have as smooth a scale between these
> tones.  The prints are showing noise or clipping between these
> tones.  I was wondering if anybody else was experiencing this
> problem?  Do the new selenium inks do this as well?  I would
> greatly appreciate comments on this.
> 
> Thanks,
> Michael


I'm seeing this as well.  Its a pain...  It is not noticeable in the step
wedge but it sure is in the images...

Lawrence
----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

Hi all,

This is also present with the Selenium inks.  It is very evident with 
Somerset Velvet and WV HW, in pictures and in the step wedge.  It 
appears to be more of a profile issue than an ink issue, as some 
papers seem to have near perfect transitions.

Seth Friedman

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Lawrence Smith 
<lsmith@l...> wrote:
> On 8/7/02 3:25 AM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@y...> wrote:
> 
> > What I am noticing
> > is the new inks don't have as smooth a scale between these
> > tones.  The prints are showing noise or clipping between these
> > tones.  I was wondering if anybody else was experiencing this
> > problem?  Do the new selenium inks do this as well?  I would
> > greatly appreciate comments on this.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Michael
> 
> 
> I'm seeing this as well.  Its a pain...  It is not noticeable in 
the step

> wedge but it sure is in the images...
> 
> Lawrence
> ----------------------------------
> Lawrence W. Smith Photography
> http://www.lwsphoto.com
> lsmith@l...
> ----------------------------------

On 8/7/02 9:32 AM, "iamsethfriedman" <seth.friedman@...> wrote:

> It 
> appears to be more of a profile issue than an ink issue, as some
> papers seem to have near perfect transitions.


I am hoping that Jon and Co. are really looking at this and building new
profiles for the inks.  A big part of the value of the system are the
profiles!

Lawrence
----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

> > It 
> > appears to be more of a profile issue than an ink issue, as 
some
> > papers seem to have near perfect transitions.

Which ones?  I have been using Photo Rag, Concorde Rag and 
EAM on which it happens on all three.  I was thinking that it was 
happening due to the increased black density of the new ink and 
the clipping we are seeing is the dither pattern of the black ink.  
This combined with midtone ink not being able to print dark 
enough.  I hope that new profiles could fix this.

 
> I am hoping that Jon and Co. are really looking at this and 
building new
> profiles for the inks.  A big part of the value of the system are 
the
> profiles!

Do you know if this issue has been brought up to Cone & Co.?   
Is it something they are working on?  Perhaps if we can get 
enough people to raise this issue to him, he could fix it.  

I hate to say it but the prints with the new ink are unacceptable.  
They look like they have been created digitally.  What to do now?  
Well at least I know that it's not just me; I guess it's time to call 
inkjetmall.

-Michael
www.michaelfaye.com

On 8/7/02 11:34 AM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...> wrote:

> Do you know if this issue has been brought up to Cone & Co.?
> Is it something they are working on?  Perhaps if we can get
> enough people to raise this issue to him, he could fix it.
> 
> I hate to say it but the prints with the new ink are unacceptable.
> They look like they have been created digitally.  What to do now?
> Well at least I know that it's not just me; I guess it's time to call
> inkjetmall.


I called last week and spoke to someone about it.  They told me that it was
due to the increased d-max  of the new black.  All well and good but the
prints still look lousy...

Lawrence
----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

----- Original Message -----

From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
To: "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Piezotone clipping?


> On 8/7/02 3:25 AM, "mfp90021" <mfp90021@...> wrote:
>
> > What I am noticing
> > is the new inks don't have as smooth a scale between these
> > tones.  The prints are showing noise or clipping between these
> > tones.  I was wondering if anybody else was experiencing this
> > problem?  Do the new selenium inks do this as well?  I would
> > greatly appreciate comments on this.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Michael
>
>
> I'm seeing this as well.  Its a pain...  It is not noticeable in the step
> wedge but it sure is in the images...
>
Lawrence,

If the step wedge prints okay then the problem is in the individual image
file(s).

In response to Michael's post, there are now 6 ink set available for the
Piezo driver. My experience is that they all do not match up exactly the
same way even with the same driver. I guess it would be surprising if they
did since it must be difficult to get precisely the same ink densities. So
far all of them have been very linear though and step wedges printed on my
1280 all looked quite good. The difference is enough though that a file
optimized with one ink set may need some tweaking if you switch to another
ink set.

Martin Wesley

I have had good luck with Legion Photo Matte, Photo Rag, and Museo.  
Concorde Rag and EAM have been okay.  What I have seen is not so much 
a break in the tones, but very flat mid and three quarter tones.

Seth

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mfp90021" <mfp90021@y...> 
wrote:
> > > It 
> > > appears to be more of a profile issue than an ink issue, as 
> some
> > > papers seem to have near perfect transitions.
> 
> Which ones?  I have been using Photo Rag, Concorde Rag and 
> EAM on which it happens on all three.  I was thinking that it was 
> happening due to the increased black density of the new ink and 
> the clipping we are seeing is the dither pattern of the black ink.  
> This combined with midtone ink not being able to print dark 
> enough.  I hope that new profiles could fix this.
> 
>  
> > I am hoping that Jon and Co. are really looking at this and 
> building new
> > profiles for the inks.  A big part of the value of the system are 
> the
> > profiles!
> 
> Do you know if this issue has been brought up to Cone & Co.?   
> Is it something they are working on?  Perhaps if we can get 
> enough people to raise this issue to him, he could fix it.  
> 
> I hate to say it but the prints with the new ink are unacceptable.  
> They look like they have been created digitally.  What to do now?  
> Well at least I know that it's not just me; I guess it's time to 
call 

> inkjetmall.
> 
> -Michael
> www.michaelfaye.com

For further clarification, these prints are all from an Epson 860, 
version 6.04 on Windows 2000. The Selenium inkset was the first ink 
used in the printer, and the grayscale ramp on several papers is not 
even close to linear.  The worst profiles I have seen is WV HW 
(totally unusable), and Somerset Velvet is also quite bad.

Seth
   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "iamsethfriedman" 
<seth.friedman@v...> wrote:
> I have had good luck with Legion Photo Matte, Photo Rag, and 
Museo.  
> Concorde Rag and EAM have been okay.  What I have seen is not so 
much 
> a break in the tones, but very flat mid and three quarter tones.
> 
> Seth
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "mfp90021" 
<mfp90021@y...> 
> wrote:
> > > > It 
> > > > appears to be more of a profile issue than an ink issue, as 
> > some
> > > > papers seem to have near perfect transitions.
> > 
> > Which ones?  I have been using Photo Rag, Concorde Rag and 
> > EAM on which it happens on all three.  I was thinking that it was 
> > happening due to the increased black density of the new ink and 
> > the clipping we are seeing is the dither pattern of the black 
ink.  
> > This combined with midtone ink not being able to print dark 
> > enough.  I hope that new profiles could fix this.
> > 
> >  
> > > I am hoping that Jon and Co. are really looking at this and 
> > building new
> > > profiles for the inks.  A big part of the value of the system 
are 
> > the
> > > profiles!
> > 
> > Do you know if this issue has been brought up to Cone & Co.?   
> > Is it something they are working on?  Perhaps if we can get 
> > enough people to raise this issue to him, he could fix it.  
> > 
> > I hate to say it but the prints with the new ink are 
unacceptable.  
> > They look like they have been created digitally.  What to do 
now?  

> > Well at least I know that it's not just me; I guess it's time to 
> call 
> > inkjetmall.
> > 
> > -Michael
> > www.michaelfaye.com

On 8/7/02 1:12 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Lawrence,
> 
> If the step wedge prints okay then the problem is in the individual image
> file(s).


Point well taken. I'm not trying to slam IJM.  I'm just pointing out that
some images printed with the original inks looked beautiful and reprinted
with the new inks are unusable.  Same driver, same printer, same PS
settings, same image, new inks.  I'm in the process of rescanning the images
and reworking.  I'm sure I will get good results eventually but the fact
remains that there is a marked difference in the two inksets.  You would
expect that.  It also make me wonder why the profiles are supposed to work
the same with the different inks.  That does not make sense to me.  Unless I
missed something from IJM (and I could have) they have not announced that
they are working on updated profiles for the new inks.

I still love the new PT WN look as well as the selenium toned sample I
received.  I'm still considering a 7000 to dedicate to Piezotones.  However,
I'm not alone in finding that the new inks/old profiles have some kinks to
be worked out...

Lawrence

----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

Damn, I was just about to order a Piezotone setup for my 1290. Back to the
drawing-board.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Smith" <lsmith@...>
>
> Point well taken. I'm not trying to slam IJM.  I'm just pointing out that
> some images printed with the original inks looked beautiful and reprinted
> with the new inks are unusable.  Same driver, same printer, same PS
> settings, same image, new inks.  I'm in the process of rescanning the
images
> and reworking.  I'm sure I will get good results eventually but the fact
> remains that there is a marked difference in the two inksets.  You would
> expect that.  It also make me wonder why the profiles are supposed to work
> the same with the different inks.  That does not make sense to me.  Unless
I
> missed something from IJM (and I could have) they have not announced that
> they are working on updated profiles for the new inks.
>
> I still love the new PT WN look as well as the selenium toned sample I
> received.  I'm still considering a 7000 to dedicate to Piezotones.
However,
> I'm not alone in finding that the new inks/old profiles have some kinks to
> be worked out...

On 8/7/02 2:28 PM, "Bob Frost" <bobfrost@...> wrote:

> Damn, I was just about to order a Piezotone setup for my 1290. Back to the
> drawing-board.
> 
> Bob Frost.


Bob,

Please don't hold of your purchase on my account.  Not all of my images
don't look right, only some of them.  I'm trying to determine what the
commonality between them is.

I'm sure there are lots of piezotone users who have not had a single
problem.

Lawrence


----------------------------------
Lawrence W. Smith Photography
http://www.lwsphoto.com
lsmith@...
----------------------------------

I've been using both the ST & WN inks on 2 1280's . The step wedge
prints on both are normal, albeit different as are the prints of both. I
really the like the look of both and have seen no clipping in either
set. I agree the ICQ profiles need to be adjusted and I'm in the process
of adjusting /tweaking the dot gain curves to better a[approximate the
print look

Frank
Francis James Mares Photography

For: Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>

>In response to Michael's post, there are now 6 ink set available for the
>Piezo driver. My experience is that they all do not match up exactly the
>same way even with the same driver...The difference is enough though that a file
>optimized with one ink set may need some tweaking if you switch
>to another ink set.

This seems to indicate that new profiles are called for. Or, in creating a new file, is it sufficient to adjust the dot gain curves to improve the preview?

--Mitch/Bangkok