Digital BW, The Print

Truman, I have tried the MIS hextone VM inks and couldn't get them to work for me.  The tonal range (dynamic range) just wasn't there compared to the Epson OEM inks.  The Piezo prints seem to go green (I think they call it a bromide look...).  From recent posts, there is apparently trouble with the new cooler Piezo inks.  Piezo inks work only on matte paper, and so far as I know no one makes a semigloss paper that doesn't look like cheap RC photo paper.  I scan mostly 8x10 and 4x5 negs, so like you there's no shortage of tonal range.  I've bit on b&w inksets before and no doubt will continue to do so.  But I really don't know what the answer is, except back into the darkroom (not).

  --Ken

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Truman Prevatt 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 4:58 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] need advice


  I am ready to get a printer. I was waiting to see what happened with the 
  2200, to make the decision. It seems that the 2200 is not a good printer 
  for someone who is primarly interested in B&W.  So it's the 1280. Now I 
  need to select the inking system. It's boiled down to the MIS hextone 
  Variable Mix inks or the Piezo driver and Piezo inks. I do like the 
  flexibility of being able to select print coolness based on the subjec, 
  what I am trying to say and where it will be displayed. This seems to 
  argue for the MIS solution.

  One the other hand I have heard that the Piezo driver produces a 
  smoother tonal range. All my images will be scanned 6x7 or 4x5 so the 
  tonal range will be there to capture. Is this ture about the Piezo dirver?

  So instead of talking about the merits of imbedded assembly code in a C 
  program could someone give me a little help here:-).

  Truman



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Quality is the same. Get the MIS VM inkset. MUCH cheaper than the piezo route.

Jerry




Truman Prevatt wrote:

> 
> I am ready to get a printer. I was waiting to see what happened with the
> 2200, to make the decision. It seems that the 2200 is not a good printer
> for someone who is primarly interested in B&W.  So it's the 1280. Now I
> need to select the inking system. It's boiled down to the MIS hextone
> Variable Mix inks or the Piezo driver and Piezo inks. I do like the
> flexibility of being able to select print coolness based on the subjec,
> what I am trying to say and where it will be displayed. This seems to
> argue for the MIS solution.
> 
> One the other hand I have heard that the Piezo driver produces a
> smoother tonal range. All my images will be scanned 6x7 or 4x5 so the
> tonal range will be there to capture. Is this ture about the Piezo dirver?
> 
> So instead of talking about the merits of imbedded assembly code in a C
> program could someone give me a little help here:-).
> 
> Truman
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Truman,

Comparing the two system, MIS-VM with separation curves and PiezoTone inks
with the Piezo driver, I think that you can get excellent results either
way. I don't think that either one has an edge in the ability to produce
smooth tones. I find that the Piezo driver is more straight forward to use
and generally gets you where you want to go with few problems. The RGB
separation curve method can be more tricky due to the nature of what is
being done to the data in order to persuade the Epson driver to partition
the inks the way you want them. You do have more ability control things with
this workflow though. In most situations the Piezo driver seems to work just
fine for me and in others the MIS-VM workflow seems to be better. Depends
upon the image and how I have hacked it up.

With the standard MIS-VM you have a wide range of hue from very blue to warm
depending upon which curve you use or intermediate steps by combining
curves. The Neutral Warm PiezoTone is too warm for my taste and does not
seem to change a great deal with different papers. The Selenium PiezoTones
offer a good range of overall hue by picking different papers. With EAM,
Photo Rag and Crane Museo or German Etching I find I can get a cool to warm
neutral. Legion Photo Matte and Eclipse Satine give even cooler tones than
the EAM.

For me the solution has been two 1280's one with MIS-VM and the other with
Selenium PT. At the moment everything seems to be getting printed on the
Selenium PT machine.

For you it sounds like it may boil down to just how much variation in hue
you want from print to print. With VM it is huge and with Selenium PT it is
modest. I would suggest that you get the 1280 and Piezo driver (don't forget
the discount price for list members at inkjetgoodies) then try with
cartridges with both inks to see which you prefer.

Martin Wesley

http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Truman Prevatt" <tprevatt@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 2:58 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] need advice


> I am ready to get a printer. I was waiting to see what happened with the
> 2200, to make the decision. It seems that the 2200 is not a good printer
> for someone who is primarly interested in B&W.  So it's the 1280. Now I
> need to select the inking system. It's boiled down to the MIS hextone
> Variable Mix inks or the Piezo driver and Piezo inks. I do like the
> flexibility of being able to select print coolness based on the subjec,
> what I am trying to say and where it will be displayed. This seems to
> argue for the MIS solution.
>
> One the other hand I have heard that the Piezo driver produces a
> smoother tonal range. All my images will be scanned 6x7 or 4x5 so the
> tonal range will be there to capture. Is this ture about the Piezo dirver?
>
> So instead of talking about the merits of imbedded assembly code in a C
> program could someone give me a little help here:-).
>
> Truman
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

That's why I waited for the 2200 hit the street. There is always the 
fear that both the MIS and Piezo are stopgap systems until the printer 
technology catches up. But if I had bought that argument, I'd never 
bought this PC, I be waiting to see what was better in six months.

Truman

Alan Zinn wrote:

>
> Truman,
>
> It's a tough call.  I have friends who use the MIS or Generations inks and
> curve adjustments that are making superb prints on older Epson machines
> (1160, 1200). I use the Piezo system with MIS and Gen black inks in
> home-filled carts and have had few problems. My ramp has been behaving
> consistently for some time now and the 980 printer is a sweetheart. If I
> were starting from scratch and didn't have time to learn to do the curves
> adjustments I'd go for the Piezo. Also if I were expecting to use a 
> variety
> of papers I'd for sure want the Piezo. I'd worry most about how either
> system is going to evolve with the new printers. Seems to me OEM inks and
> drivers should be just about ready for salon-quality b/w output.
>
> AZ
>

The new Piezotones give far superior prints to my eye and spectrophotometer
than the MIS inks.  The MIS inks flutter around a very critical area of the
dmax range (1.5 to 1.65).  When you go with the piezotones you get out of
this range with all of the major papers...(1.65- 1.85).  This makes a huge
difference to my eye.  A 1.55 dmax print is unacceptable while a 1.65 dmax
is ok to me.  That said I have a much broader range of papers...some much
cheaper than Hahnemuhle that give great prints.  This difference more than
compensates for the price difference in inks given that paper is really the
big cost in all of this...not inks. Believe me, if you can get a good print
on a paper that is 50 cent's per sheet cheaper that makes whatever
difference in ink cost there is amount to nothing. If I want to change from
one inkset to another (which I don't do too offen) I just swap carts and run
a flush image. For desktop printers I keep my main ink in a CIS and then use
hand filled carts for special jobs with other inks.  With my 7000 I just
keep multiple sets of carts.   When the Piezotone Sepia and Neutral-Cool
inks come out later this summer you will have as broad a range of tones as
VM and WM-sepia offer and without the hassle of an RGB workflow.  I'm using
Imageprint instead of the epson or piezo drivers.  It is available for both
windows and the mac.  The output is simply excellent and final profiles for
the piezotones on a broad range of papers will be out within the next couple
of weeks...I'm testing beta's now and they are outstanding.

Robert

On 8/7/02 8:36 PM, "Alan Zinn" <AZinn@...> wrote:

> At 05:58 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>> I am ready to get a printer. I was waiting to see what happened with the
>> 2200, to make the decision. It seems that the 2200 is not a good printer
>> for someone who is primarly interested in B&W.  So it's the 1280. Now I
>> need to select the inking system. It's boiled down to the MIS hextone
>> Variable Mix inks or the Piezo driver and Piezo inks. I do like the
>> flexibility of being able to select print coolness based on the subjec,
>> what I am trying to say and where it will be displayed. This seems to
>> argue for the MIS solution.
>> 
>> One the other hand I have heard that the Piezo driver produces a
>> smoother tonal range. All my images will be scanned 6x7 or 4x5 so the
>> tonal range will be there to capture. Is this ture about the Piezo dirver?
>> 
>> So instead of talking about the merits of imbedded assembly code in a C
>> program could someone give me a little help here:-).
>> 
>> Truman
>> 
> 
> Truman,
> 
> It's a tough call.  I have friends who use the MIS or Generations inks and
> curve adjustments that are making superb prints on older Epson machines
> (1160, 1200). I use the Piezo system with MIS and Gen black inks in
> home-filled carts and have had few problems. My ramp has been behaving
> consistently for some time now and the 980 printer is a sweetheart. If I
> were starting from scratch and didn't have time to learn to do the curves
> adjustments I'd go for the Piezo. Also if I were expecting to use a variety
> of papers I'd for sure want the Piezo. I'd worry most about how either
> system is going to evolve with the new printers. Seems to me OEM inks and
> drivers should be just about ready for salon-quality b/w output.
> 
> AZ
> 
> Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
> http://www.panoramacamera.us
>        or
> keyword.com lookaround
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Your answer is really quite clear to me. You've stated black and white is 
your preferance, So black and white it should be. The 2200 is primarily a 
color printer so thats out. The 1280 produces smooth dotless prints with a 
variety of methods. The piezo driver at 150.00 is a must have tool and will 
soon support 4-5 ink sets including a couple from MIS that really come cheap. 
He who waits for a faster train or newer printer goes nowhere my man ;0) Make 
prints now, the technology is there and the 1280/ Piezo driver is a great 
start and you still have all the other options a 1280 brings to the table. 
Consider the 100.00 rebate Epson's gift to finance the Piezo driver. See what 
your images look like in ink first, I would suggest Piezo MIS/FS or Peizotone 
ink and start printing. You might ask yourself, What am I going to do with 
the prints? Commercial portfolio? Fine Art? Studio Portrait sales? weddings? 
Your shooting 6x7 and 4x5 so we know your serious. Make some fine black and 
white prints first,then play with color tints if you want, or get some 
samples. Establish a standard look to your prints, a black and white 
portfolio thats all over the tint range will irritate some viewers. If your 
going to sell your work, sell the image not the tint. the 1280 is said also 
to produce nice digital negs, so the 1280 is a tool that will get several 
years of use. The quality of current systems is not likely to get blown away 
soon if ever. Even the 7+ year old 3000 produces exhibit quality prints so 
don't worry about your purchase becoming obsolete. This quadtone stuff Has 
been going on close to 5 years with nice jumps in quality to where we are at 
now. Dive in, the waters fine right now, and 100% better than it was just 2 
years ago. New inks and papers will be the driving force for a while, and 
since Piezo is a major player in the Black and  White printing market, inks 
developers will have an effort behind them to be compatible with the driver. 
A second printer my be in your future but you need the first one now :)
Steve Meyers

In a message dated 08/07/2002 3:04:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
tprevatt@... writes:


>  am ready to get a printer. I was waiting to see what happened with the 
> 2200, to make the decision. It seems that the 2200 is not a good printer 
> for someone who is primarly interested in B&W.  




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 05:58 PM 8/7/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>I am ready to get a printer. I was waiting to see what happened with the 
>2200, to make the decision. It seems that the 2200 is not a good printer 
>for someone who is primarly interested in B&W.  So it's the 1280. Now I 
>need to select the inking system. It's boiled down to the MIS hextone 
>Variable Mix inks or the Piezo driver and Piezo inks. I do like the 
>flexibility of being able to select print coolness based on the subjec, 
>what I am trying to say and where it will be displayed. This seems to 
>argue for the MIS solution.
>
>One the other hand I have heard that the Piezo driver produces a 
>smoother tonal range. All my images will be scanned 6x7 or 4x5 so the 
>tonal range will be there to capture. Is this ture about the Piezo dirver?
>
>So instead of talking about the merits of imbedded assembly code in a C 
>program could someone give me a little help here:-).
>
>Truman
>

Truman,

It's a tough call.  I have friends who use the MIS or Generations inks and
curve adjustments that are making superb prints on older Epson machines
(1160, 1200). I use the Piezo system with MIS and Gen black inks in
home-filled carts and have had few problems. My ramp has been behaving
consistently for some time now and the 980 printer is a sweetheart. If I
were starting from scratch and didn't have time to learn to do the curves
adjustments I'd go for the Piezo. Also if I were expecting to use a variety
of papers I'd for sure want the Piezo. I'd worry most about how either
system is going to evolve with the new printers. Seems to me OEM inks and
drivers should be just about ready for salon-quality b/w output. 

AZ

Maker of Lookaround panoramic camera.
http://www.panoramacamera.us
         or
keyword.com lookaround

Robert Morrison wrote:

>The new Piezotones give far superior prints to my eye and spectrophotometer
>than the MIS inks.  The MIS inks flutter around a very critical area of the
>dmax range (1.5 to 1.65).  When you go with the piezotones you get out of
>this range with all of the major papers...(1.65- 1.85).  This makes a huge
>difference to my eye.  A 1.55 dmax print is unacceptable while a 1.65 dmax
>is ok to me.

In general, I would agree that the deeper the black, the better.  However, I
have yet to see a black ink darker than the MIS FS or VM black, or the
original PiezoBW black that does not fade and warm-shift more.  After about
300 hours in my fader, the PiezoTone black on Photo Rag had lost it's edge
to these more pure pigmented blacks.  That test continues, so we'll see if
it actually ends up less black.  So, in my mind, we still do not have the
best of both worlds.  You have to choose between deep initial blacks and
longevity.

The depth of black does seem to have decreasing marginal importance as it
gets deeper.  One reason I like the Epson driver is that I get 1.68 with the
3000, MIS VM K and Epson Archival/Enhanced Matte paper.  Deeper would be a
little better, but 1.68 is fine, and it will last.

> That said I have a much broader range of papers...some much
>cheaper than Hahnemuhle that give great prints.  This difference more than
>compensates for the price difference in inks given that paper is really the
>big cost in all of this...not inks. ...

I go for the best of both worlds -- MIS K and Epson Archival/Enhanced Matte.

> If I want to change from
>one inkset to another (which I don't do too offen) I just swap carts and
run
>a flush image.

"A" flush image???   It takes about 4 cleaning cycles to clean out the tubes
of the 3000.  It would take MANY flush images to clean them out.  With my
1160 it's easier only if I use a new, vacuum-filled cart.  Otherwise at
least 3 cleaning cycles seem to be needed to get a previously-used cart to
give a clean nozzle check.

>When the Piezotone Sepia and Neutral-Cool
>inks come out later this summer you will have as broad a range of tones as
>VM and WM-sepia offer and without the hassle of an RGB workflow.

Once you have a good set of curves, there is no hassle to the RGB workflow.
I switch from neutral to sepia just by applying a different curve -- even
within a single print.  If you want to have different tones, I'd call
switching carts continuously the more serious hassle.

Getting good Photoshop image adjustment curves is the key to an RGB
workflow.  It takes some work, but there are pre-written curves that work or
are very close for a number of printers.  True, the Piezo system (I'm not
familiar with the ImagePrint system) has many canned profiles for different
papers, but a number of papers work very well with the default Epson
Archival/Enhance Matte profile for which most of the existing
variable-tone/mix curves have been written.

I don't want to get into a big debate over which system is the ultimate --
but there simply is not one choice that is clearly superior in all respects
for all people.  Right now the 3000 and the vm-sepia inkset are what I find
to be the best compromise for what I do.  If I were a high-volume service
bureau, I'd want multiple large-format printers with high-end RIPs.
However, for my personal 16x20's and limited space and budget, the 3000 with
the vm-sepia inkset is great.

True, I may be biased by the fact that I designed the vm-sepia system.
However, I'm not in the ink business and designed the vm-sepia inkset only
because none of the other systems gave me what I wanted.  I will change when
there is a better system, but so far and for me, I don't see one.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

MIS VM Sepia-Neutral is the ink set I use too. I'm at the other end 
of the spectrum from Paul in terms of both experience and expertise. 
But his work flow is a no-hassle one for me too. And the S-N ink set 
is also an interesting one to experiment with by departing from the 
MIS download work flow, partly because there's a surprising amount of 
muted or subtle color in S-N, in hues that I wouldn't have associated 
with sepia.

Despite some experimentation along those lines, I haven't stumbled 
across a way to switch from neutral to sepia by applying a different 
curve within a single print. And I hope Paul will describe that or 
post a reference to it.

Sam


Paul Roark wrote in response to Robert Morrison:

>[snip]
>Once you have a good set of curves, there is no hassle to the RGB workflow.
>I switch from neutral to sepia just by applying a different curve -- even
>within a single print.  If you want to have different tones, I'd call
>switching carts continuously the more serious hassle.
>[snip]