Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message -----
From: "tomoc" <TomOC@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging


> Martin-
>
> I think you're right...the ratios of clogs seem to increase across a
> spectrum of OEM, MIS, PT, BW. I've been trying PT carts and the first
> 3 sets were great (what fabulous prints they make !) but now I'm in a
> constant banding situation where I could not even print a whole 13x19
> print without banding creeping back in in the final quarter print...a
> nozzle cleaning after every 2 8.5x11 prints kept it in check, but
> this was a pretty high price to pay.

Tom,

The problem is when you get in situations like yours where the clogs are not
from hell but they are occurring often enough to make printing life
difficult, very unpleasant and expensive. Kind of breaks into the creative
flow when you have to stop and yell at the printer. It might be time to pop
the OEM carts back in and burn off some purge patterns to see if you can
clean up the nozzles.
>
> The other factor that you don't address is (from my experience)
> clogging definitely is reduced by switching to a CIS system from
> carts. The problem is that someone who has a significant problem with
> the carts is very unlikely to take the chance of investing time and
> money in a CIS for the same ink that might have caused the problem.
>
> I had "some" clog issues with MIS carts...since installing CIS,
> almost never a problem, and all easily fixed. I think this is due to
> the constant "connection" advantage of the CIS vs. introducing air
> and uneven fill issues every time you change a cart, but you may know
> more about this than I.

I absolutely agree with you that printers with a CIS installed have fewer
clogging problems. My experiences with preloaded original Piezo carts was so
bad it is amazing I am still working with inkjet and my hand loaded carts
with MIS inks gave me lots of clog problems as well. In both cases moving to
a CIS dramatically improved the situation. It was still bad with the
original Piezo but with the MIS inks and the CIS clogging on that printer
fell to a level comparable to Epson inks.

I do have to point out though that there have been some people who had the
opposite experience and got fewer problems with the cartridges. I think this
is the less common experience though.

I never used the PT inks in carts. I went straight to a CIS system with both
the WN-PT and ST-PT. With the WN-PT my experience was somewhat similar to
yours. Initially I had no clogs at all and then after a few weeks I started
to get normal clogging, a couple of blocked nozzles that cleared with a
nozzle clean or two. This would be at the start of the print session
generally but I did have a nozzle clog mid 13x19 on 308gsm Photo Rag. I went
through a similar period with MIS-VM in a CIS on a 1280 where it would cut
out on a print and then come back in. Very frustrating and as mysteriously
as it came it went away and hasn't returned.
>
> This is certainly not an invitation to a piezo bashing thread because
> I think Jon is really on to something with the PT inksets. There seem
> to be more complaints in 1160 cart usage than any other (might just
> be that the 1160 is everyone's "experimental" platform or maybe the
> newer printers really do work better ((what a concept))).

The 1160 still is the most common printer out there so it would make sense
that they would always report the most problems.
 >
> We've all heard the issues of clogs and banding being blamed on the
> inks...wonder if it is more an ink/printer combination? Are some
> printers really handling 3P inks better than others? I've read in
> other forums that Canon printers, for instance, handle 3P color inks
> better...

No hard data on which printers are worse in this regard. I have the distinct
impression that the 1200 is not good with pigment inks but no body of facts.
Unfortunately all we have is a large number of individual accounts and
people don't post, "Hey, I am not having any problems!" nearly as often as
reporting their problems. Something new comers really need to keep in mind.
>
> Any thoughts? For now, I'm back to MIS FS, but only to avoid being
> sucked into a struggle that I would rather watch than participate in
> <g>...if 6 months from now the reports are all great on PT, I'll be
> there again!

My personal experience with my 1280's and CIS is that the PT has more normal
clogging than the FS but if I do a nozzle check at the start of each print
session I avoid any problems and I have not been in a situation where a clog
caused me to miss a printing session. I like the ST-PT inks so much that
they more than offset the minor nuisance I am experiencing.

I just want to say that my in my original post I wanted to give newcomers to
inkjet printing the perspective that clogging is a part of making inkjet
prints and that the idea of clogging should not stop them from getting
involved. All the negative reports give the impression that this is an
impossible technology.

Martin Wesley
>
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > I wanted to post something on the topic of clogging as we seem to
> have many different experiences and expectations.
> >
> > Most of the concern appears to come from the many serious clogging
> problems people experience with the original Piezo inks. What this
> has left in its wake is a lot of skepticism about the new Piezo inks
> and the mistaken idea that any sign of clogging in a ink/printer
> combination is unacceptable.
> >
> > This last point is what concerns me the most. The simple fact is
> that if you use an inkjet printer you will get clogged nozzles. This
> is completely independent of whether you use genuine Epson ink or a
> third party ink. It doesn't matter what printer model you have. Epson
> did not include nozzle check and nozzle cleaning utilities for no
> reason. They expected that people using their printers and inks would
> get nozzle clogs. This is indeed the case.
> >
> > The amount of nozzle clogging will vary from printer to printer
> with the same ink set. Robert Morrison reported recently that his
> father's 1200 requires daily nozzle checks and cleans with Epson OEM
> inks. I have had periodic clogging with Epson inks on a couple
> 1270's. Others may go for months before they hit a clog. All of this
> is normal.
> >
> > Now if we take these printers that were designed for the Epson inks
> and we install pigment grayscale inks, it should be obvious that the
> rate of clogging is  likely to go up. In general this seems to be the
> case.
> >
> > So what is acceptable clogging? Well first unacceptable clogging
> was my experience with original Piezo where I would come home from
> work to print and not be able to get a clear nozzle check after 4, 5
> or more nozzle cleaning cycles at which point the cure was to let the
> printer sit over night. I can't tell you how frustrating that is
> especially if you have limited time available to print. And this does
> not happen once a year but once a week of more. Worse you come back
> 24 hours later and it is still clogged. Then it is off onto soaking
> the parking pad with Windex, paper towel under the print head, green
> shift, clog from hell, etc. Reports of these kind of problems with
> the original Piezo inks came in a flood and consumed much of the
> Piezo list activity.
> >
> > So again what is normal and acceptable clogging? I would say any
> clogging that can be cleared by running nozzle cleaning cycles and
> then lets you get back to printing is acceptable.
> >
> > Having said that, there are middle areas where the frequency of
> normal clogging is so high it becomes very annoying. If every time
> you start a print session you have to run 5 nozzle checks and 4
> cleaning cycles, you may decide that this is just too much hassle and
> look for another ink or printer, or you may decided that you like the
> results of this particular ink so much you will put up with this
> behavior. Even an occasional major clog that causes a delayed
> printing session or some extraordinary cleaning activity may be
> acceptable if it only happens once or twice a year.
> >
> > So we have a wide range of experience regarding clogs. What we need
> to keep in mind, is that if someone posts that ink "X" in printer "Y"
> caused clogging, what exactly do they mean? Likewise if you want to
> report a clogging issue please let us know exactly what is happening.
> Is it a normal clog that cleared up with nozzle cleaning cycles? Was
> it a clog from hell? How often does it happen? Did you have to delay
> your printing session as a result? What was the condition of the
> printer? Was it new, well used  or had it been sitting in the attic
> with no cartridges installed?
> >
> > None of the MIS VM or FS inks has resulted in the scale of clogging
> problems associated with the original Piezo inks. This is not to say
> that some people did not have a bad experience with one of these
> inks, but there has been no flood of posts about clogging. With the
> PiezoTones initial reports indicate that they do not suffer the
> unacceptable clogging problems of the original Piezo inks either.
> There may be some indication that the PT's experience normal clogging
> more frequently than the MIS inks but we will need to wait and see if
> that is generally true or not. The clogging behavior of the PT inks
> seems to be close to the MIS inks and not at all similar to the
> original Piezo inks.
> >
> > Keep in mind that due to the variation in printers, the effects of
> different climate conditions, cartridges vs. CIS and other factors
> there are and will be exceptions to these general statements. Even
> with the original Piezo inks many people never experienced
> unacceptable clogging and are still happy with them today.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
> >
> > http://www.borderless-photos.de/guests.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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>

Tom, Did you ever have sg cartridges?  If so, Could you tell me
approximately how many 8x10 prints you could get out of a cartridge? 
Just roughly.  I've had 25 so far, but the cartridges have my old CIS
chips that tell the printer the cartridge is always full, so I don't
know how much ink is left.

Thanks.

Jerry

another quick thought about clogging. It's worth taking the time to brush the paper before printing. Paper dust and lint can 
easily acumulate on the heads requiring an under the heads wipe with windex or whatever. Helps with papers that have a 
tendency to flake also.

----- Original Message -----

From: "tboleyyh" <tyler@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:28 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging


> another quick thought about clogging. It's worth taking the time to brush
the paper before printing. Paper dust and lint can
> easily acumulate on the heads requiring an under the heads wipe with
windex or whatever. Helps with papers that have a
> tendency to flake also.

Tyler,

Good advice on both. What we really need is a maintenace manual that gives
us the "change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles whichever comes first"
in terms of square feet of paper and time.

It maybe worth occassionally doing a nozzle clean cycle even if the nozzle
check is okay, or periodically running some cleaning carts or OEM carts,
doing the under the head cleaning you mention (I am using Quickie brand
Sponge Cloths that I got at the supermarket with water and rubbing alcohol),
replace the cartridge portion of the CIS at least once a year and ultimately
toss the printer when it is worn out.

Lacking any official guidelines it would be worthwhile for all of us to
develop a routine of preventive maintenance that makes sense for our
individual usage.

Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----

From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging


>
> Good advice on both. What we really need is a maintenace manual that gives
> us the "change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles whichever comes first"
> in terms of square feet of paper and time.
>

I was just thinking that today. I just rehabbed a CIS and moved it to my
backup 1160. With a clean slate and like-new printer, I was just musing
about the preventative maintenance I should perform to make this one last a
long time and wishing there was a list somewhere. Note: I found I could not
reuse the tubing...the portions of the black and yellow that sat in the ink
were gummed up...the black was positively stiff. Dave at normorecarts said
he hadn't heard of that happening before. This was an 18 month old setup
with generations enhanced inks. I had refilled the bottles numerous
times...but maybe everyday I should give them a little shake or something.
They also sat near a hot (but covered) south window. Let's see...shake
bottles, run nozzle check, clean print heads, wipe with windex, make sure
tubes aren't drooping, dust paper, turn off when not in use, insert Epson
carts, objects in mirror are closer than they appear...oops.....

But I'm printing again....all is well. RIP 1160 #1

Linda

Martin-

You make one point that I don't think anyone in these forums has 
articulated before, and it bears repeating.

Not only do some of the clogs and problems appear out of nowhere and 
drive some more crazy than others, but LOTS of the problems that do 
come up seem to eventually disappear and life goes on...just as 
quickly and mysteriously as they come up.

I've never used one of the wide carriage printers like the 9000 etc, 
but I wonder if the pro shops that use them wouldn't have as many 
problems as we desktop users do except for the fact that they pro 
shops spend a lot of time and effort on continuous maintenance (which 
most desktop users ignore and take great performance of a relatively 
inexpensive printer for granted).

I think I'd better add a room to my house so I can add a few printers 
<g>.

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

Jerry-

I don't have an actual "COUNT" so I'm only guessing...maybe 40 prints.

tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Tom, Did you ever have sg cartridges?  If so, Could you tell me
> approximately how many 8x10 prints you could get out of a 
cartridge? 
> Just roughly.  I've had 25 so far, but the cartridges have my old 
CIS

> chips that tell the printer the cartridge is always full, so I don't
> know how much ink is left.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Jerry

Martin-

Replace the carts once a year is meaningful only to you (or maybe 
not...like changing the oil in your car once a year even if you don't 
drive it?)...how many prints would you make in a year...then maybe 
more specifically how many square feet of ink do you lay down.

I agree with the idea of some level of white paper or info sheet 
based on our experiences that could be available in the files for 
newcomers. But I guess we need to reduce the data to quantified 
benchmarks for it to work. 

Wonder if we could post a word or excel document that is not read 
only so we can collaborate and annotate to our hearts content?

tom


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "tboleyyh" <tyler@t...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:28 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging
> 
> 
> > another quick thought about clogging. It's worth taking the time 
to brush
> the paper before printing. Paper dust and lint can
> > easily acumulate on the heads requiring an under the heads wipe 
with
> windex or whatever. Helps with papers that have a
> > tendency to flake also.
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> Good advice on both. What we really need is a maintenace manual 
that gives
> us the "change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles whichever comes 
first"
> in terms of square feet of paper and time.
> 
> It maybe worth occassionally doing a nozzle clean cycle even if the 
nozzle
> check is okay, or periodically running some cleaning carts or OEM 
carts,
> doing the under the head cleaning you mention (I am using Quickie 
brand
> Sponge Cloths that I got at the supermarket with water and rubbing 
alcohol),
> replace the cartridge portion of the CIS at least once a year and 
ultimately
> toss the printer when it is worn out.
> 
> Lacking any official guidelines it would be worthwhile for all of 
us to

> develop a routine of preventive maintenance that makes sense for our
> individual usage.
> 
> Martin Wesley

on 8/14/02 2:56 AM, tomoc wrote:

> I've never used one of the wide carriage printers like the 9000 etc,
> but I wonder if the pro shops that use them wouldn't have as many
> problems as we desktop users do except for the fact that they pro
> shops spend a lot of time and effort on continuous maintenance (which
> most desktop users ignore and take great performance of a relatively
> inexpensive printer for granted).

Many of the pro shops also make sure to keep the room's relative humidity
up.

Todd

----- Original Message -----

From: "tomoc" <TomOC@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 11:56 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging


> Martin-
>
> You make one point that I don't think anyone in these forums has
> articulated before, and it bears repeating.
>
> Not only do some of the clogs and problems appear out of nowhere and
> drive some more crazy than others, but LOTS of the problems that do
> come up seem to eventually disappear and life goes on...just as
> quickly and mysteriously as they come up.

Tom,

Unfortunately true and incredibly frustrating.
>
> I've never used one of the wide carriage printers like the 9000 etc,
> but I wonder if the pro shops that use them wouldn't have as many
> problems as we desktop users do except for the fact that they pro
> shops spend a lot of time and effort on continuous maintenance (which
> most desktop users ignore and take great performance of a relatively
> inexpensive printer for granted).

If the graphic arts industry is similar to others, expensive items like the
9000 are usually purchased through an equipment dealer along with a
maintenance contract. If they have a problem they just call the dealer. This
makes sense where the printer is paying for itself and keeping it running on
time is very important. I wonder if they can get support for a machine using
3rd party inks though.
>
> I think I'd better add a room to my house so I can add a few printers
> <g>.

The lack of space is actually saving me from myself!

Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "tomoc" <TomOC@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:03 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging


> Martin-
>
> Replace the carts once a year is meaningful only to you (or maybe
> not...like changing the oil in your car once a year even if you don't
> drive it?)...how many prints would you make in a year...then maybe
> more specifically how many square feet of ink do you lay down.

The reason for replacing the cartridge portion of the CIS is that the third
party inks use solvent that may breakdown the sponge inside and/or tend to
sludge up. When I disassembled my old 1200 CIS to reuse the arm and tubing I
was really shocked at how much solid material was deposited in the in the
lines and the lines were starting to get stiff. I know the solvent manage to
get through these plastics (I have fresh, unopened bottles of ink that are
inside Zip-Lock bags that are inside a plastic tote and when I open the tote
the smell of the ink solvent is very strong).
>
> I agree with the idea of some level of white paper or info sheet
> based on our experiences that could be available in the files for
> newcomers. But I guess we need to reduce the data to quantified
> benchmarks for it to work.

I like the idea but it is going to have to be judgement call. I don't see
any way to get hard data for this.
>
> Wonder if we could post a word or excel document that is not read
> only so we can collaborate and annotate to our hearts content?

Maybe we should just do it as an on-list thread and let people add
suggestions and make comments. Then distill that into a list of
recommendations that we could post in the files secton.

Martin Wesley

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "tboleyyh" <tyler@t...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 8:28 PM
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Clogging
> >
> >
> > > another quick thought about clogging. It's worth taking the time
> to brush
> > the paper before printing. Paper dust and lint can
> > > easily acumulate on the heads requiring an under the heads wipe
> with
> > windex or whatever. Helps with papers that have a
> > > tendency to flake also.
> >
> > Tyler,
> >
> > Good advice on both. What we really need is a maintenace manual
> that gives
> > us the "change the oil every 6 months or 5000 miles whichever comes
> first"
> > in terms of square feet of paper and time.
> >
> > It maybe worth occassionally doing a nozzle clean cycle even if the
> nozzle
> > check is okay, or periodically running some cleaning carts or OEM
> carts,
> > doing the under the head cleaning you mention (I am using Quickie
> brand
> > Sponge Cloths that I got at the supermarket with water and rubbing
> alcohol),
> > replace the cartridge portion of the CIS at least once a year and
> ultimately
> > toss the printer when it is worn out.
> >
> > Lacking any official guidelines it would be worthwhile for all of
> us to
> > develop a routine of preventive maintenance that makes sense for our
> > individual usage.
> >
> > Martin Wesley
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>