Digital BW, The Print

Hi I've decided to go ahead and buy an 1160 due to many reasons, including
affordability and they are very very easy to get in australia... So now the
printer part is settled, what MIS inks should I get (im planning to go
CFS)... Im thinking FS-N, because neutral B&W is probably more versatile for
me than having to fiddle with sepia options if I get VS-sepia (altho its
nice to be able to print sepia)... So my question is, considering i want to
print mainly neutral B&W, can VS-sepia achieve as neutral tones as FS-N
whilst allowing one to print sepia as well, or am i better off with FS-N
becos its neutrals are more superior than VS-sepia?

Kevin,
it is a mess with all those acronyms, isn´t it, but as far as I know 
there don´t exist any  MIS "VS" inks.

So "FS" means "Full spectrum", those inks are equivalent to the 
old Cone PiezoBW Quads and should be printed via the Cone 
Piezo driver, though there exist some workflows for the Epson 
driver which are used by a few
MIS "VM" means variable mix, which reffers to the fact that you 
can use different curves (developed by P. Roark) to print a more 
or less warm or cool b&w tone. There is a  new option with the 
advent of the sepia VM inks for sepia printing, again using Paul´s 
curves.

So, to make it clear:
if you ant to go with MIS Quadtone, you have the choice between
1. the original MIS Quads with several workflows (not 
recommended nowadays)
2. MIS FS standard ( bit warm) or neutral ( both only 
recommended if you have the Cone piezo driver)
3. MIS VM cool - warm  or sepia, one of wihich you should try, if 
you haven´t got the Cone/Piezo driver and must go with Paul´s 
curves, which are free of charge.

The most fool-proof combo is the Cone driver with MIS FS inks 
(standard or neutral), because you have a lot of paper profiles 
integrated into the driver. 
This is not the case with MIS VM and using Paul´s curves may be 
a bit tricky, and  results maybe not printer-independent.

I´ve no personal experiences with the Sepia set, so I can´t 
comment on their special options.
Bernd



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Kevin" 
<imaginaryapple@i...> wrote:
> Hi I've decided to go ahead and buy an 1160 due to many 
reasons, including
> affordability and they are very very easy to get in australia... So 
now the
> printer part is settled, what MIS inks should I get (im planning 
to go
> CFS)... Im thinking FS-N, because neutral B&W is probably 
more versatile for
> me than having to fiddle with sepia options if I get VS-sepia 
(altho its
> nice to be able to print sepia)... So my question is, considering 
i want to
> print mainly neutral B&W, can VS-sepia achieve as neutral 
tones as FS-N
> whilst allowing one to print sepia as well, or am i better off with 
FS-N
> becos its neutrals are more superior than VS-sepia?

Sepia-Neutral in an 1160 isn't much fiddling Kevin. And no 
maintenance to speak of - daily nozzle checks, normally perfect - 
with NoMoreCarts.com's CIS and occasional checks of the alignment, 
which seems however not to drift.

There are four stock curves, and you can just load the one for 
neutral except when you want sepia - or either of the two 
intermediate curves - instead. I once forgot to load any curve; the 
result was a relatively light print with warmth somewhere between the 
two intermediate curves. And I once forgot to convert to GS and back 
to RGB, i.e., just printed from RGB. The result was a very warm print 
with some subtle, muted coloring (wildflowers) which I liked very 
much.

Sepia-Neutral prints made with the neutral curve look neutral to me, 
but I haven't seen FS-N prints so I can't compare them.

Sam McCandless               samcc@...

>Hi I've decided to go ahead and buy an 1160 due to many reasons, including
>affordability and they are very very easy to get in australia... So now the
>printer part is settled, what MIS inks should I get (im planning to go
>CFS)... Im thinking FS-N, because neutral B&W is probably more versatile for
>me than having to fiddle with sepia options if I get VS-sepia (altho its
>nice to be able to print sepia)... So my question is, considering i want to
>print mainly neutral B&W, can VS-sepia achieve as neutral tones as FS-N
>whilst allowing one to print sepia as well, or am i better off with FS-N
>becos its neutrals are more superior than VS-sepia? [Kevin]

Kevin:

Ink set choice is 95% personal taste--someone's rave is another's 
rage. The definition of warm, cool etc. is totally subjective.  I'd 
suggest you buy carts of all the possibilities and check them out 
with your setup and images.  

MIS FS and FSN using the Woolf (lumped, non-partitioned) or the 
Randall (RGB partitioned) workflows/curves and MIS VS and VS-sepia 
using the Roark (RGB partitioned) workflows/curves.  Note:  As 
mention in another post, MIS FS and FSN also work with the PiezoBW 
driver that you can now buy seperately, but first make sure you like 
the inkset before you jump.

Yeah I know this is an expensive deal, but only you can determine 
what's best for your tastes and your images.  Don't your prints 
deserve it?  (:>))

Good Luck

Jeff Randall


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Kevin" 
<imaginaryapple@i...> wrote:
> Hi I've decided to go ahead and buy an 1160 due to many reasons, 
including
> affordability and they are very very easy to get in australia... So 
now the
> printer part is settled, what MIS inks should I get (im planning to 
go
> CFS)... Im thinking FS-N, because neutral B&W is probably more 
versatile for
> me than having to fiddle with sepia options if I get VS-sepia 
(altho its
> nice to be able to print sepia)... So my question is, considering i 
want to
> print mainly neutral B&W, can VS-sepia achieve as neutral tones as 
FS-N
> whilst allowing one to print sepia as well, or am i better off with 
FS-N
> becos its neutrals are more superior than VS-sepia?

>... decided to go ahead and buy an 1160 due to many reasons, ...

Good choice -- very versatile.

>So ... what MIS inks should I get ... Im thinking FS-N, because
>neutral B&W is probably more versatile for
>me than having to fiddle with sepia options if I get VS-sepia (altho its
>nice to be able to print sepia)...

The FS-N is versatile in the sense that both the Epson and Piezo drivers can
print it.  Some do prefer the Piezo driver due to its paper profiles and
more "plug and play" character.  It can make very good prints.  (I prefer
the Epson driver due to its darker blacks, and the Piezo driver doesn't
allow me to use my computer while printing -- a serious problem for me.
And, the Epson driver can also make very good prints.)

The variable-tone/mix inksets are versatile in the tones they can print.  I
use the vm-s because of this.  I do my landscapes with the neutral curve,
and my "southwest" and old photo reproductions with the light sepia and
sepia tones, respectively.

One's ability/willingness to tweak curves may be part of the equation,
however.  Not all printers seem to print the same with the Epson driver and
Photoshop image adjustment curves that have been made.

>So my question is, considering i want to
>print mainly neutral B&W, can VS-sepia achieve as neutral tones as FS-N
>whilst allowing one to print sepia as well, or am i better off with FS-N
>becos its neutrals are more superior than VS-sepia?

The gray ink in the vm-s inkset is the FS-N ink.  The FS-N ink is a hair
cool, so I put in just a bit of sepia toner (via the "neutral curve") to
make a dead neutral print.  I think it is the most neutral print I've seen
yet.

Note that I use an 1160 with a PC.  If you are using a Mac, the curves may
need a bit of adjustment.  (I have not seen a Mac/vm-s/1160 print.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Kevin writes:
 > Hi I've decided to go ahead and buy an 1160 due to many reasons, including
 > affordability and they are very very easy to get in australia... 

Oh sure, rub it in... :)

 > [...] what MIS inks should I get (im planning to go
 > CFS)... Im thinking FS-N, because neutral B&W is probably more versatile for
 > me than having to fiddle with sepia options if I get VS-sepia (altho its
 > nice to be able to print sepia)... So my question is, considering i want to
 > print mainly neutral B&W, can VS-sepia achieve as neutral tones as FS-N
 > whilst allowing one to print sepia as well, or am i better off with FS-N
 > becos its neutrals are more superior than VS-sepia?

I'd *really* recommend getting some cartridges and trying them out
before you commit a CIS to a particular ink.  I'm using MIS FS-N in a
Niagra (aka nomorecarts) CIS in an 1160 via the piezography driver.
I'd previously been using the original Cone inks in cartridges.  I
collected opinions about the various ink sets, and was able to see
other folks results with a few, but I wish that I'd run some test of
my own before committing.  As it is, I'm ok with the FS-N look, but I
think I'll end up with a second CIS or some carts of something warmer.

It's not the kind of thing that other folks can really decide for you,
it depends on your images, your paper, and your taste.  Try it out.

g.

>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:06:04 -0700
>From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
>Subject: Epson 1160 and which MIS ink?
>
>The gray ink in the vm-s inkset is the FS-N ink.  The FS-N ink is a hair
>cool, so I put in just a bit of sepia toner (via the "neutral curve") to
>make a dead neutral print.  I think it is the most neutral print I've seen
>yet.
>
>Note that I use an 1160 with a PC.  If you are using a Mac, the curves may
>need a bit of adjustment.  (I have not seen a Mac/vm-s/1160 print.)
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks paul and everyone else that replied, sorry i got the acronyms mixed
up =). Paul, what u said about the neutrality of vm-sepia is quite
intriguing indeed, however isnt it true that the tonal range of vm inksets
will suffer somewhat since one of the colours is a toner?? so ligther tones
on the print might not appear as smooth as FS-neutral ones?

Kevin wrote:

>...isn't it true that the tonal range of vm inksets
>will suffer somewhat since one of the colours is a toner?? so lighter tones
>on the print might not appear as smooth as FS-neutral ones?

In theory, I suppose the more inks the better.  In fact, one of the things
that got me interested in the variable tone concept was that Jon Cone
mentioned in a post that only 3 inks were needed.  So, I tested the concept
by simply eliminating the lightest gray and printing some images with the
second lightest gray going all the way up the scale.  (It takes knowing how
to write partitioning curves to do this, but it's not too hard.)  I found
that I could not tell the difference in the prints.  So, I concluded that 3
gray inks were, indeed, enough.  That, of course, meant that there was an
extra spot for a toner.  (The lightest ink in the vm systems is between the
two lightest in the FS/Piezo systems.)

Some do see the dots in the MIS VM inkset prints done with the neutral and
cool curves when using the 1160 printer.  However, from what I have been
able to tell, what they are seeing is the blue toner.  (I don't see the dots
in normal prints and under normal viewing conditions.)  In the "warm"
prints, where there is no toner in the highlights, I have not heard people
say they see the dots.

One reason I prefer the vm-s inkset is that in my landscapes, where I'll be
using a neutral tone, I use almost no toner in the highlights.  So, even the
people with their noses in the prints will have trouble seeing even the big
3000 dots.

But, of course, some people are more sensitive to this than others.  I do,
of course, see the dots with a loupe, but I'm not trying to avoid people
finding out that my prints are digital.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_________________________________





-----Original Message-----

From: Kevin [mailto:imaginaryapple@...]
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:51 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Epson 1160 and which MIS ink?


>Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 15:06:04 -0700
>From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
>Subject: Epson 1160 and which MIS ink?
>
>The gray ink in the vm-s inkset is the FS-N ink.  The FS-N ink is a hair
>cool, so I put in just a bit of sepia toner (via the "neutral curve") to
>make a dead neutral print.  I think it is the most neutral print I've seen
>yet.
>
>Note that I use an 1160 with a PC.  If you are using a Mac, the curves may
>need a bit of adjustment.  (I have not seen a Mac/vm-s/1160 print.)
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com