Digital BW, The Print

Andre...

Great idea!  My preference would be to let people use whatever paper they
want...we could all learn a lot more that way.

-Jim-
On the southern coast of Oregon...
with the fires moving away.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andr\ufffd Vallejo" <avs@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 1:57 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] A different print exchange....


> Aside from the usual print exchange that goes here,I was thinking of
> something different. There are now so many different combinations of
> ink,paper,printer and software,that it\ufffds very hard for most of us now to
> evaluate what's "better". So my idea is:
> Someone chooses a representative image and upload it to the list archive.
> All those who participate download it and print it with a certain
> combination. Variables could be:
>
> Inks: MIS VM,VM-Sepia and FS,Piezo in various flavors.
> Printers: 1160,1280,3000 and it's little sisters (like the 980)
> Paper: Maybe here we should stick to EAM only,otherwise the number of
> combination will grow wild.
> Drivers: Epson,Imageprint and Piezo.
>
> So that we can stop wondering about differences and see for ourselves.
Sure
> that who is printing will still be an uncontrolled variable,but there are
> limits to this idea...
>
> Any ideas about this and how to improve and implement it?
>
> Andr\ufffd Vallejo
>
>
>
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J,

how to get a 16 bit large image to the participants?  A CD?  E mail
would take much too long, no?

Jerry

> And there is one other comment I might make: The ink/driver/paper/printer
> combo I select will match my images which will differ from the next
> person's. I may prefer high contrast most of the time while someone else
> may do the opposite. So I would suggest letting people interpret the image
> as well. Provide a basic scan in 16 bit and let everyone do whatever
> Levels/Curves/etc. they choose. W

> how to get a 16 bit large image to the participants?  A CD?  E mail
> would take much too long, no?

download it from someone's site. a stuffed file.


>> And there is one other comment I might make: The ink/driver/paper/printer
>> combo I select will match my images which will differ from the next
>> person's. I may prefer high contrast most of the time while someone else
>> may do the opposite. So I would suggest letting people interpret the image
>> as well. Provide a basic scan in 16 bit and let everyone do whatever
>> Levels/Curves/etc. they choose. W

It may just be me, but I don't see how you can compare output from different
inks/drivers/rips using an image that each has 'interpreted', that would be
the same as if they used their own creation rather than a target print.  The
image has to be the same, the constant... unmanipulated except for what is
required for the different output workflows, IMHO.

Carolyn

Depends on where we could store it. A 16 bit grayscale image with 300 dpi 
at 8 x 10 looks to be about 14 MB in Photoshop. I've downloaded upgrades 
that are that big over a dial-up connection. Sure, it took a while but it 
can be done. The bigger problem might be bandwidth limitations where the 
file was stored on the Web. Web hosting plans have a monthly bandwidth 
limits that might be exceeded by a lot of downloads of such a file. Don't 
know what the Yahoo group limitations are.

The other option would be CD. They are very cheap these days. Postage might 
be more than the CD.

I'm probably asking too much of a print exchange with this but its worth 
talking about.

Jeff Greer

At 08:38 PM 09/02/2002 -0500, you wrote:

>J,
>
>how to get a 16 bit large image to the participants?  A CD?  E mail
>would take much too long, no?
>
>Jerry
>
> > And there is one other comment I might make: The ink/driver/paper/printer
> > combo I select will match my images which will differ from the next
> > person's. I may prefer high contrast most of the time while someone else
> > may do the opposite. So I would suggest letting people interpret the image
> > as well. Provide a basic scan in 16 bit and let everyone do whatever
> > Levels/Curves/etc. they choose. W
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

>It may just be me, but I don't see how you can compare output from different
>inks/drivers/rips using an image that each has 'interpreted', that would be
>the same as if they used their own creation rather than a target print.  The
>image has to be the same, the constant... unmanipulated except for what is
>required for the different output workflows, IMHO.

I can see your point. A standard, unmanipulated image would be OK.

Jeff Greer

If aesthetics is not an issue, why would you want to produce an image as
large as an 8x10.  When this subject came up a few weeks ago, I
suggested using two images, one bold and technical (architecture or a
bridge, etc.) and one softer portrait, showing lots of skin tones.  The
idea for the last go-around included a grayscale or something to that
effect.  That could give three images on one standardized page (keep in
mind that the images do not need to be complete)  I'd think keeping the
photographic images to 7x2 or so.
 
Karl Wolz

-----Original Message-----
From: J Greer [mailto:jgpinfo@...] 
Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:03 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] A different print exchange....
 
Depends on where we could store it. A 16 bit grayscale image with 300
dpi 
at 8 x 10 looks to be about 14 MB in Photoshop. I've downloaded upgrades

that are that big over a dial-up connection. Sure, it took a while but
it 
can be done. The bigger problem might be bandwidth limitations where the

file was stored on the Web. Web hosting plans have a monthly bandwidth 
limits that might be exceeded by a lot of downloads of such a file.
Don't 
know what the Yahoo group limitations are.

The other option would be CD. They are very cheap these days. Postage
might 
be more than the CD.

I'm probably asking too much of a print exchange with this but its worth

talking about.

Jeff Greer

At 08:38 PM 09/02/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>J,
>
>how to get a 16 bit large image to the participants?  A CD?  E mail
>would take much too long, no?
>
>Jerry
>
> > And there is one other comment I might make: The
ink/driver/paper/printer
> > combo I select will match my images which will differ from the next
> > person's. I may prefer high contrast most of the time while someone
else
> > may do the opposite. So I would suggest letting people interpret the
image
> > as well. Provide a basic scan in 16 bit and let everyone do whatever
> > Levels/Curves/etc. they choose. W
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and 
>other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to

>unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same 
>page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep 
>them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>"flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
various 
>resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since the idea seems to fancy many people,I checked out in the yahho
groups,and we habe about 11mb of free space in the files area. I could
upload a 9 inch tall file with 360 dpi,that is abou 6.8MB as a PSD
file,which I think could be read by both PC and Mac plataforms.So that's my
idea of how it could work:

1. I upload 5 small images so that all participants could take a look and
say which one seems more suitable for the test.
2. Everyone willing to participate send me an email saying which
inkset/printer/driver would use. Paper would be EAM for the sake of
availability and a minimum standartisation.
3.I upload the big image,everyone download it and then I delete it for
freeing space.
4.The rest goes as usual. Since I'm in Brazil,there would be better if
someone who live in the country where more people are (usa,I guess) receives
all the copies and re-route them.Any volunteers? Guess 14 participants would
be enough.

Any other ideas?Let's develop this further...

Andr\ufffd Vallejo

Tuesday, September 3, 2002, 7:25:06 AM, Andr\ufffd Vallejo wrote:

AV> 2. Everyone willing to participate send me an email saying which
AV> inkset/printer/driver would use. Paper would be EAM for the sake of
AV> availability and a minimum standartisation.

I'd like to participate.  I print with an 1160 with MIS FS-N inks.

Best regards,
 Richard  

mailto:richard@...

André Vallejo wrote:

>Since the idea seems to fancy many people,I checked out in the yahho
>groups,and we habe about 11mb of free space in the files area. I could
>upload a 9 inch tall file with 360 dpi,that is abou 6.8MB as a PSD
>file,which I think could be read by both PC and Mac plataforms.So that's my
>idea of how it could work:
>  
>

If you do go with this, might I suggest that each participant include 
one additional print for a travelling portfolio?  

That would give more people a chance to see the options and even those 
of us who might participate but whose ink or paper of choice is already 
being printed could then benefit by reviewing the output of others..

>  
>

Keith
 
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We just finished an exchange on the 9000 list, where everybody printed the 
same image. There was a ton of information to absorb, because everyone used 
different inks and different papers. I think everyone found it worthwhile. While it 
might not have been a very artsy image, in the end, it turned out to be a good 
choice. There were grey wedges, color cones, skin tones, etc. (But let me stress 
that we are NOT geeks over there on that list, even though we printed images of 
color cones! Let's just call us -- analytical; yeah, that's the word).

Here's what arrived at my doorstep about a week ago:

http://marktucker.com/temp/samples.jpg
(Sorry for giant jpeg. Just scroll left and right).

There were pigments mixed with dyes; 9600s, 9000s, 1270s, 7000s, hell, one 
guy even snuck in an actual photo  Cprint. (His reds popped, but his yellows 
sucked).

No one was allowed to tweak or alter the image. Here's what we went by:
http://marktucker.com/exchange/

We're contemplating one now, where we might *allow* people to tweak the image, 
just to see how much the image varied. Also planning a possible get-together in 
person during PhotoEast in NYC, as a group. 

-MT, http://marktucker.com

I'm with Keith: a traveling portfolio seems more appropriate, as we could
reach a lot more people this way.
Each submitter could send a limited number of copies (say 3 to 5), and those
would generate the same number (3 to 5) of identical traveling portfolios,
each with a different list of addressees, and each containing a copy of all
different ink/workflow/paper combinations.
It would take a while (a participated once in such a project, and was at the
end of the list :-) but in the end, as I said, a lot more people would be
able to see the results.
Things would get even better if groups of people who live in the same area
participate as a single person, and meet to see the prints (this would have
the portfolio to linger a bit waiting for them to arrange the meeting, but
would anyway be faster than having every single member of that group receive
it separately).
Of course, those who make the prints would be first in the lists, so that
they have the advantage of seeing the results early.
Do you think this is feasible? The only problem would be to find a volunteer
that collects the prints and sends each portfolio to the first in line...
 
Alessandro Pardi

-----Original Message-----
From: Editor P.O.V. Image Service [mailto:editor@...]
Sent: martedì 3 settembre 2002 23.10
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] A different print exchange....




André Vallejo wrote:

>Since the idea seems to fancy many people,I checked out in the yahho
>groups,and we habe about 11mb of free space in the files area. I could
>upload a 9 inch tall file with 360 dpi,that is abou 6.8MB as a PSD
>file,which I think could be read by both PC and Mac plataforms.So that's my
>idea of how it could work:
>  
>

If you do go with this, might I suggest that each participant include 
one additional print for a travelling portfolio?  

That would give more people a chance to see the options and even those 
of us who might participate but whose ink or paper of choice is already 
being printed could then benefit by reviewing the output of others..

>  
>

Keith





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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