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Re: [Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

Re: [Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

2001-09-02 by Jerry Olson

I do NOT experience 1 single noticeable dot with the Cool 17 curve from Paul Roark, using the 1280 printer and the MIS hextone inks. If you
see dots, something is wrong somewhere, 'cause there just ain't any.

Jerry



Shaun Granleese wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I've seen some discussion of this issue in past posts but it's not
> clear to me whether the expert users of the VM inkset have conceded
> that dotty highlights is a limitation of this process. This has been
> my experience so far, with the colder curves being "dottier".
>
> With the original MIS quads/Brandin curves and with my standard
> PiezoBW setup, I am used to zero dots.
> I love the tonality and ability to produce such a range of prints
> from the same printer, but I had hoped the process would be as close
> to continuous tone as the methods I mentioned above.
>
> Any advice would be appreciated,
>
> Shaun Granleese
>
>
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[Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

2001-09-03 by Paul Roark

Shaun,

What printer and paper are you using?

Paul
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>I've seen some discussion of this issue in past posts but it's not 
>clear to me whether the expert users of the VM inkset have conceded 
>that dotty highlights is a limitation of this process. This has been 
>my experience so far, with the colder curves being "dottier".

>With the original MIS quads/Brandin curves and with my standard 
>PiezoBW setup, I am used to zero dots.
>I love the tonality and ability to produce such a range of prints 
>from the same printer, but I had hoped the process would be as close 
>to continuous tone as the methods I mentioned above.

>Any advice would be appreciated,

>Shaun Granleese

Re: [Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

2001-09-03 by Shaun Granleese

Sorry -  I missed an important detail in that I'm using an 1160, 
with only 3 "shades" of gray apart from the toner I would expect it 
to perform differently from your 1280. My curves are the July 19 
curves linked on the MIS website.

Anyone with an 1160 willing to make the same statement as Jerry?

Shaun Granleese


<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> I do NOT experience 1 single noticeable dot with the Cool 17 curve 
from Paul Roark, using the 1280 printer and the MIS hextone inks. If 
you
> see dots, something is wrong somewhere, 'cause there just ain't 
any.
> 
> Jerry

[Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

2001-09-03 by Paul Roark

Shaun asked whether others could see dots in the highlights of the MIS VM
inkset when used on an 1160.

I must say that I do not see them at normal viewing distance, but it is
certainly possible that some have eyes good enough to perceive them. (Note
that most commentators, and Kodak in its Print Grain Index Technical
Publication, use 14 inches as the normal viewing distance for prints.)

It is, of course, true that all of the inkjet printing systems have dots,
whether we are talking about the Epson or Piezo driver.  With magnifiers or
high resolution scans, we can clearly see the dot patterns of all of these
systems.  It is also the case that the lightest gray ink in the
variable-tone inkset is somewhat darker than, for example, the Piezo
lightest gray (about 38% v. 27%).  Also, even thought the toner is close to
the same luminance as the gray ink, there might be more color contrast with
it in there.  So, the dots in the variable-tone system are going to be
visible sooner than the dots in the Piezo system as we get closer with
higher power magnifiers.

However, the question I am concerned with is how much this affects the
visual appearance of grain in the print at normal viewing distance.  For
this, I suggest the following method of objectively measuring that relative
"graininess" of the prints using a scanner and Photoshop.

First, I believe most agree that at normal viewing distance the normal
maximum resolution that humans an see is 5 line pairs per millimeter
(lp/mm).  This figure is based on high contrast resolution targets.  As
such, for lower contrast details the resolution would be substantially less.

To "see" 1 lp/mm, it takes two pixels.  So, 5 lp/mm translates into 10
pixels/mm.  This is the same as 250 dpi.

Since this would be for high contrast detail, using the scanner setting of
240 dpi seems like a reasonable resolution to scan at in order for the
scanner to "see" about the same detail as we can see at normal viewing
distance.

So, I scanned 21-step test file images made by my 1160 using the Piezo
driver/ink, and the Epson driver with the MIS variable-tone inkset and the
neutral-cool curve (vmq-nc).

To measure the "graininess" or unevenness, I think the Photoshop Histogram
tool's Standard Deviation calculation gives us a good relative measure.  The
higher the number, the more differences or deviations in values the scanner
saw in the scanned area, as I understand it.

Here are the relative numbers for some representative patches of the 21-step
test prints:

5% patch:  	Piezo 1.08,		vmq-nc 1.96

20% patch:	Piezo 1.32		vmq-nc 1.94

50% patch:	Piezo 2.22		vmq-nc 1.94

75% patch:	Piezo 3.95		vmq-nc 3.03

95% patch:	Piezo 4.16		vmq-nc 3.64

So, on my 1160, the Piezo print does indeed have slightly smoother
highlights.  However, the Epson driver produces slightly smoother mid-tones
and dark-tones.

The reason I originally started to write curves to print Piezo inks through
the Epson driver was to get the smoother tones that the Epson driver could
produce with its Error Diffusion algorithm.

I, personally, cannot see, at normal viewing distances, the differences in
the highlights of prints made with these two systems on my 1160, but I do
not doubt that some have better eyes (even when I'm wearing my reading
glasses).  I can, however, see the differences that often show up in the
very dark, heavily-filtered skies of my prints.  So, I started to print with
the Epson driver even before the advantages of the variable-tone inkset -- I
found that, overall, my prints were smoother.  (I also really liked the
darker blacks that the Epson driver produced.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

2001-09-03 by Alessandro Pardi

Paul,
I'm once more amazed at how detailed your answers are. 
Anyway, one thing is not yet clear to me: is the difference between the
Piezo and the Epson print you compared due to the drivers or to the inks? In
a previous thread you wrote that smooth B&W prints can be obtained with 3
inks only, and therefore the 4th ink could be used for toning, but maybe
there is a *small* advantage in using 4 inks. If this is the case, given
that I do not dislike the warm tone of the original MIS quads, I'd probably
be better off with the new Full spectrum quads.
 
Thanks, Alessandro Pardi
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...]
Sent: lunedì 3 settembre 2001 19.22
To: DigitalB&WPrint
Subject: [Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?



Shaun asked whether others could see dots in the highlights of the MIS VM
inkset when used on an 1160.

<huge snip> 

So, on my 1160, the Piezo print does indeed have slightly smoother
highlights.  However, the Epson driver produces slightly smoother mid-tones
and dark-tones.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Just installed my MIS VM - dots in highlights?

2001-09-03 by Paul Roark

Alessandro wrote:

>... is the difference between the
>Piezo and the Epson print you compared due to the drivers or to the inks?

I think both ink and driver are elements.  The Piezo prints at 2160 whereas
the 1160 Epson driver prints at 1440x720.  Also, the Piezo lightest gray is
lighter.  So, both these give an advantage to Piezo.  On the other side, of
course, is the Epson Error Diffusion.  So, especially outside the
highlights, there is also some advantage to that system.

> In a previous thread you wrote that smooth B&W prints
>can be obtained with 3 inks only,...

I originally read this in a couple of posts by Jon Cone.  So, I tried it
with Piezo ink and the Epson driver.  I just cut out the lightest gray
ink -- the yellow -- and printed a test strip and some test photos.  I
didn't see any visual difference.

Actually, for the print exchange I'm going to distribute a print made on the
3000 with the MIS variable-tone inkset.  I'm interested in how others see
the quality of that combination.  While I'd never recommend the 3000 for
small prints, at the 16x20 level, I find it amazingly better than I would
have thought.

For my prints or style, I think the emphasis on highlight dots is misplaced.
I don't even see dots in the highlights of Epson 3000 test strips.  The 5%
patch Standard Deviation for the 3000, for example, is 2.16, compared to
1.96 for the 1160 variable-tone and 1.08 for the 1160 with Piezo driver/ink.

The problems and differences that I become more aware of are down in the
midtones and darker tones.  There we are dealing with Standard Deviations of
3 & 4 for the 1160 with the Epson and Piezo driver, respectively, and
slightly over 5 for the 3000.  To me, that is where the action is, not the
highlights.

>... maybe there is a *small* advantage in using 4 inks.

Certainly in theory you're right.  I've also said that I see a small
advantage in 6-ink printers over the 4-inkers even for quads.  From what
I've seen, the 1280 beats the 1160 and all Piezo software on any machine.
(Piezo only uses 4 ink shades even on 6-ink machines, as far as I can
tell -- look at the nozzle checks of a Piezo 7000 system.)

>If this is the case, given that I do not dislike the
>warm tone of the original MIS quads, I'd probably
>be better off with the new Full spectrum quads.

To me color/tone is the big issue.  If any inkset hits what you like right
on and for all purposes, then there is not much reason not to go for it.
The variable-tone gives you the control and flexibility to do more and get
more what you really like best as opposed to what the inkset happens to be.
I like cool landscapes and warm old-photo reproductions.  To me, there is
also no visual disadvantage on modern Epson printers.  Others may be
sensitive to differences in highlights that are just not visible to me in my
normal printing.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

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