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Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test

Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test

2002-09-07 by Ernst Dinkla

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 8:43 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test
>
>
> > Dan and Martin,
> >
> > It sounds like Royce was talking about a yellowing that is different
than
> > the optical brightener yellowing we've become familiar with -- and
> > (personally) not much concerned with.  If Royce is correct, then EAM may
> > have more problems than I thought.
> >
> > Do we know where the information on the effect of the slight acidity is
> > coming from?  That is, how authoritative is it?  Also, how serious is
it?
> > If, like the OB yellowing, we're talking about 0.02 units of yellowing
and
> > then stabilizing, then it may still not be a major issue.
>
> Paul,
>
> I have never seen any measurement of the acidity of EAM other than pH pen
> tests which do not have a high degree of accuracy. As I have posted
before,
> an unbuffered but acid free paper may test "acid" with these pens. The
> result is inconclusive as to presence of free acid in EAM. It may or may
not
> be there. If it was truly yellowing from acid content I would expect it to
> be happening much faster than it seems to be the case in these fade tests.
>
> However, I think that it is likely that Epson's "Archival" designation may
> be related to image permanence rather than paper permanence and if the
image
> permanence is not longer as good as initially believed then the name
change
> is appropriate.

I have seen that comment on acidity/yellowing by Royce in the 9000 list some
time ago. I find it a bit confusing. The results given by Wilhelm are based
on his use of 60 % humidity in the test, the temperature in Wilhelm's tests
is not below room temperature (I guess). If the paper yellowed in the test
he would have made that clear. The tests are not on ink alone but for a
given ink/substrate combination. It is of course possible that a higher
degree of humidity and temperature will change the paper colour faster.
However Wilhelm's test conditions are already considered severe if compared
with museum conditions. I have made the same comment on the 9000 list then.
Royce answer was as follows:

"According to my recent talks with Henry W., all aspects of image
permanence are now being carefully considered, which is why
Epson is now calling the results of his tests "Image
Permanence" testing vs. just "Lightfastness".  This is why the
results on the Enhanced Matte are dual (30/75) and annotated."

Ernst

Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test

2002-09-07 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Dan_Honemann" <dan_honemann@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 06, 2002 10:39 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test


> Paul,
>
> The UC inks may last 75-100 years, but the Enhanced Matte paper will
> begin to yellow at 30 years, at least according to Royce Bair at
> inkjetart.com; I quote him here:
>
> "The Enhanced Matte image permanence drop was NOT in going from the
> roll version to the sheet version (not a coating difference issue)
> The 30 years vs. 75 years (with UltraChrome inks) and the 30 years
> vs. 100+ years (with the Archival Inks) is due to paper YELLOWING.
> Within about 30 years, both the roll and sheet versions of the
> Enhanced Matte paper will yellow due to the paper's slightly acid
> pH.  The image itself, will not start to show noticeable fading
> until about 75 years (UltraChrome) or about 100+ years (Archival).

Dan,

Thanks for the info on the "life" rating. The line between paper and image
permanence tends to get blurred. The yellowing in the Archival Matte and
other papers with optical brightening agents is due to the OBA's loosing
there ability to fluoresce. Robert Rex of Crane paper posted information on
this quite some time ago. Once the OBA is exhausted and has yellowed it is
stable and does not appear to effect paper life. The effect of OBA's on
image permanence is not known but obviously a yellowing of your highlights
is not a desirable effect. Keep in mind that most of the top silver fiber
papers seem to use some OBA's too.

Martin Wesley

(snip earlier)

Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test

2002-09-07 by Paul Roark

Dan and Martin,

It sounds like Royce was talking about a yellowing that is different than
the optical brightener yellowing we've become familiar with -- and
(personally) not much concerned with.  If Royce is correct, then EAM may
have more problems than I thought.

Do we know where the information on the effect of the slight acidity is
coming from?  That is, how authoritative is it?  Also, how serious is it?
If, like the OB yellowing, we're talking about 0.02 units of yellowing and
then stabilizing, then it may still not be a major issue.

Incidentally, the yellowed 1850's era prints by Gustave Le Gray at the Getty
are just spectacular.  (Not that I'm in favor of yellowing, but in those
photos its very appropriate.)

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Original messages:

Dan wrote:

>> The UC inks may last 75-100 years, but the Enhanced Matte paper will
>> begin to yellow at 30 years, at least according to Royce Bair at
>> inkjetart.com; I quote him here:
>
>> "The Enhanced Matte image permanence drop ...
>>30 years vs. 75 years (with UltraChrome inks) and the 30 years
>> vs. 100+ years (with the Archival Inks) is due to paper YELLOWING.
>> Within about 30 years,...
>> Enhanced Matte paper will yellow due to the paper's slightly acid
>> pH.  The image itself, will not start to show noticeable fading
>> until about 75 years (UltraChrome) or about 100+ years (Archival).

Martin wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>... The yellowing in the Archival Matte and
>other papers with optical brightening agents is due to the OBA's loosing
>there ability to fluoresce. Robert Rex of Crane paper posted information on
>this quite some time ago. Once the OBA is exhausted and has yellowed it is
>stable and does not appear to effect paper life. ... the top silver fiber
>papers seem to use some OBA's too.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test

2002-09-07 by Martin Wesley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: "DigitalB&WPrint" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 07, 2002 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test


> Dan and Martin,
>
> It sounds like Royce was talking about a yellowing that is different than
> the optical brightener yellowing we've become familiar with -- and
> (personally) not much concerned with.  If Royce is correct, then EAM may
> have more problems than I thought.
>
> Do we know where the information on the effect of the slight acidity is
> coming from?  That is, how authoritative is it?  Also, how serious is it?
> If, like the OB yellowing, we're talking about 0.02 units of yellowing and
> then stabilizing, then it may still not be a major issue.

Paul,

I have never seen any measurement of the acidity of EAM other than pH pen
tests which do not have a high degree of accuracy. As I have posted before,
an unbuffered but acid free paper may test "acid" with these pens. The
result is inconclusive as to presence of free acid in EAM. It may or may not
be there. If it was truly yellowing from acid content I would expect it to
be happening much faster than it seems to be the case in these fade tests.

However, I think that it is likely that Epson's "Archival" designation may
be related to image permanence rather than paper permanence and if the image
permanence is not longer as good as initially believed then the name change
is appropriate.
>
> Incidentally, the yellowed 1850's era prints by Gustave Le Gray at the
Getty
> are just spectacular.  (Not that I'm in favor of yellowing, but in those
> photos its very appropriate.)

Are these albumen prints with a gelatin made from egg whites? They are known
to yellow. Even modern albumen prints do the same. Gustave might be very
disappointed if he was still around.

Martin


>
> Original messages:
>
> Dan wrote:
>
> >> The UC inks may last 75-100 years, but the Enhanced Matte paper will
> >> begin to yellow at 30 years, at least according to Royce Bair at
> >> inkjetart.com; I quote him here:
> >
> >> "The Enhanced Matte image permanence drop ...
> >>30 years vs. 75 years (with UltraChrome inks) and the 30 years
> >> vs. 100+ years (with the Archival Inks) is due to paper YELLOWING.
> >> Within about 30 years,...
> >> Enhanced Matte paper will yellow due to the paper's slightly acid
> >> pH.  The image itself, will not start to show noticeable fading
> >> until about 75 years (UltraChrome) or about 100+ years (Archival).
>
> Martin wrote:
>
> >... The yellowing in the Archival Matte and
> >other papers with optical brightening agents is due to the OBA's loosing
> >there ability to fluoresce. Robert Rex of Crane paper posted information
on
> >this quite some time ago. Once the OBA is exhausted and has yellowed it
is
> >stable and does not appear to effect paper life. ... the top silver fiber
> >papers seem to use some OBA's too.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
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>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome 100 Hr Fade test

2002-09-07 by Paul Roark

I noticed that the Epson Australia web site that has the 75+ year rating
also has a footnote that applies to all the papers:

"Test Conditions  ... 3. The estimate longevity does not indicate the colour
changing and the durability of the paper itself."

The Epson USA pre-sale and tech support people were talking 100 years -- no
conditions.  I'm going to call the Epson folks again and try to nail them
down on this.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
...
> > It sounds like Royce was talking about a yellowing that is different
than
> > the optical brightener yellowing we've become familiar with -- and
> > (personally) not much concerned with.  If Royce is correct, then EAM may
> > have more problems than I thought.
> >
> > Do we know where the information on the effect of the slight acidity is
> > coming from?  That is, how authoritative is it?  Also, how serious is
it?
> > If, like the OB yellowing, we're talking about 0.02 units of yellowing
and
> > then stabilizing, then it may still not be a major issue.
>
> Paul,
>
> I have never seen any measurement of the acidity of EAM other than pH pen
> tests which do not have a high degree of accuracy. As I have posted
before,
> an unbuffered but acid free paper may test "acid" with these pens. The
> result is inconclusive as to presence of free acid in EAM. It may or may
not
> be there. If it was truly yellowing from acid content I would expect it to
> be happening much faster than it seems to be the case in these fade tests.
>
> However, I think that it is likely that Epson's "Archival" designation may
> be related to image permanence rather than paper permanence and if the
image
> permanence is not longer as good as initially believed then the name
change
> is appropriate.

I have seen that comment on acidity/yellowing by Royce in the 9000 list some
time ago. I find it a bit confusing. The results given by Wilhelm are based
on his use of 60 % humidity in the test, the temperature in Wilhelm's tests
is not below room temperature (I guess). If the paper yellowed in the test
he would have made that clear. The tests are not on ink alone but for a
given ink/substrate combination. It is of course possible that a higher
degree of humidity and temperature will change the paper colour faster.
However Wilhelm's test conditions are already considered severe if compared
with museum conditions. I have made the same comment on the 9000 list then.
Royce answer was as follows:

"According to my recent talks with Henry W., all aspects of image
permanence are now being carefully considered, which is why
Epson is now calling the results of his tests "Image
Permanence" testing vs. just "Lightfastness".  This is why the
results on the Enhanced Matte are dual (30/75) and annotated."

Ernst

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