Digital BW, The Print

Steve, I have tried all the inks on most of the papers mentioned on the list. Without reservation, the MIS Variable tone Black and the
Generations black are the deepest blacks of all the inks, both are deeper than piezo. I suppose it could be possible you have a bad bottle
of MIS Black ink. Or maybe I had a bad bottle of Piezo ink. It's certainly possible.

Do a Dip and dunk test with 1x5 inch strips of paper. Dunk them in a bottle and leave them there a few seconds, and when you take them out,
lay them on a towel, do NOT leave them in a vertical position.  Then blow on them a few seconds.  When they are all dry, take them into a
bright light. Then you'll know which is the blackest ink.

If Piezo is YOUR blackest ink, then I had a bottle of bad piezo black, OR, you have a bad bottle of MIS ink.

Of course you are on the  7000, and this could make a difference, I suppose. There are just TOO many damn variables in this whole
process....

jerry




sdmey4@... wrote:

> Today I've been printing a 75% all black image on my Epson 7000. I have the
> standard Hextone inks with VM HEX-4-K in the black position.
> I believe Paul R. tested this as his favorite and piezo equal in the black
> position.
> Is VM-HEX-4-K The best black to compare to Piezo?
> What I can tell you is that visually this black is a full stop lighter than
> Piezo black.
> Compared to the Piezo print of the same image. This MIS black looks more like
> 80-90%. Its not a work flow issue either as I printed a black only image also
> with the MIS and its still weak compared to piezo. Is this because I dont
> have the Vari tone inkset included with this black? Are you guys getting some
> blue in there and making the black appear darker?
> The More I use MIS inks the More different they are compared to Piezo, and
> black Vs black Piezo wins hands down. Maybe MIS ink just doesn't like Royal
> plush/ or Jazz paper!
> Thats a possibility. Can anybody else explain my poor MIS blacks while know
> one else is complaining?
> Steve Meyers
>
>
>
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Jerry I don't need a dip and dunk test the Piezo black is obviously darker 
than MIS black VM-HEX-4-K ON EAM. I just printed a 100% plain black patch 
through the 3000 piezo and the 7000 MIS. Cant be the printers ! they are just 
printing the ink that loaded. 
Could they have loaded the Double density black in the VM-HEX-4-K Bottle? 
I would assume you printed all you inks with a black patch only to make sure 
your workflow wasn't adding any other inks to your black. Heck, print a black 
patch with black ink only selected and see what you get? The Piezo black on 
EAM coudn't be any blacker but blue might make you think so..
Is the VM-HEX-4-K the best balck from MIS?
This is driving me crazy to say the least
Steve M. 
n a message dated 09/03/2001 2:24:24 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
jerryolson@... writes:

<< Steve, I have tried all the inks on most of the papers mentioned on the 
list. Without reservation, the MIS Variable tone Black and the
 Generations black are the deepest blacks of all the inks, both are deeper 
than piezo. I suppose it could be possible you have a bad bottle
 of MIS Black ink. Or maybe I had a bad bottle of Piezo ink. It's certainly 
possible.
 
 Do a Dip and dunk test with 1x5 inch strips of paper. Dunk them in a bottle 
and leave them there a few seconds, and when you take them out,
 lay them on a towel, do NOT leave them in a vertical position.  Then blow on 
them a few seconds.  When they are all dry, take them into a
 bright light. Then you'll know which is the blackest ink. >>

Steve,

Of the blacks I've tried from MIS, the VM black, which is also sold as the
FS black, is the best, in my view.  The samples I have are so close to Piezo
black that I suspect they are the same ink.  To see if you have the right
black from MIS, give it a sniff.  The VM/FS black, like Piezo, uses a
solvent base that smells rather strong compared to the other MIS black inks
or the VM or standard MIS quad midtones.

Of course, different printers and drivers will print different amounts of
black ink.  So, be sure you are comparing the inks and not the
printer/driver differences.  Also, of course, there are major paper
differences.

Paul

Paul as far as I can tell they all smell the same! I can't smell the piezo 
inks, they are in the printer.
I ordered these inks before I even got the printer and it was unclear at the 
time which one was best. 
Looks like I might have the double density black, thats what I asked for at 
the time. Seeing that it was labeled 
VM-hex-4-k I thought I had a chance that it was the right one. Most of my 
testing has been on Sumerset Enhanced
and this version of there black prints is equal to piezo on that paper. The 
differance in VM-HEX-4-K and Piezo black is obvious
even if accounting for driver differances on paper like Royal plush.
Very, Very tough to beat the 3000 and piezo inks.
I'll call MIS tommorrow and see about a different black ink.
Steve M>>>>

In a message dated 09/03/2001 3:05:02 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
paul.roark@... writes:

<< Steve,
 
 Of the blacks I've tried from MIS, the VM black, which is also sold as the
 FS black, is the best, in my view.  The samples I have are so close to Piezo
 black that I suspect they are the same ink.  To see if you have the right
 black from MIS, give it a sniff.  The VM/FS black, like Piezo, uses a
 solvent base that smells rather strong compared to the other MIS black inks
 or the VM or standard MIS quad midtones.
 
 Of course, different printers and drivers will print different amounts of
 black ink.  So, be sure you are comparing the inks and not the
 printer/driver differences.  Also, of course, there are major paper
 differences.
 
 Paul
 
  >>

Hi Steve, I've printed many a print lately on the cold tone VM MIS inkset. I swear to God it's blacker than piezo black. Again, wer'e
picking nits here. the difference certainly is not great! just noticeable. I would swear the MIS VM black HEXtone ink and Beta Black are the
same ink. I can't prove it, but I sure can't see any difference. the MIS STANDARD black is NOT nearly as black.

By the way, the Generations "Enhanced" black is the Renamed "Beta Black" which isn't Beta anymore.

And yes, unfortunately, MIS has mislabeled inks more than once on bottles I have gotten from them, but they were good enough to catch the
mistake and sent properly labeled inks out immediately.

Again, I'm not on a 4 color printer, but a 6 (1280 with the MIS inks). I don't know for a fact that the inks are the same for both printers.
I just assume 4 of them would be the same with the additional 2 light ones for the 6 tone set.

Can't see what difference a 7000 printer should make, but who knows?

Yes, I've printed black patches with all inks. They match the dip and dunk tests.

In Paul Roark's tests, he has determined the paper with the deepest black is Epson Archival. When you put up an Eclipse or a legion photo
matte print next to an EAM print, the blacks look darker to me. BUT the paper is so much whiter than the EAM that this may be causing it to
LOOK like it is darker than it really is because of the better contrast. I just don't know.  Again, we are picking nits. All the black inks
are pretty black, except the mis standard, and the old Generations standard, which were/are not as black as their current offerings.


> Could they have loaded the Double density black in the VM-HEX-4-K Bottle?

Yes.

I have 3 mis labeled bottles of MIS Ink. IT CAN happen. But again, they caught the mistake and corrected it immediately, much to Bob's
credit.

>
> I would assume you printed all your inks with a black patch only to make sure
> your workflow wasn't adding any other inks to your black. Heck, print a black
> patch with black ink only selected and see what you get? The Piezo black on
> EAM coudn't be any blacker but blue might make you think so..\

> Is the VM-HEX-4-K the best balck from MIS?

I don't know about the hex FOUR k. It is if it's identical to the HEX inks.

But you said that the MIS black was a full f stop lighter than the piezo, which is WAY out of line according to all my prints. Lets say you
have a 25 point scale. 0 is black velvet in a cave at night underground. White is the chrome on your old car's bumper.

The best black ink there is is (not yet discovered by anyone on this list), is about a 4 on that scale.  MIS is a 4.5, Piezo is a 4.9.  We
all want the 0, but that will give the ink folks something to work towards during the next few years....

The eye can see the difference if you look very carefully, but it is really not worth talking about, except on these lists.

I suppose if I really REALLY wanted the deepest black in the world I would use glossy papers and varnish them. Hope my aesthetic taste in
prints never stoops to using glossy paper!

Wonder what epson is going to do about improving the print quality of the 1280 printer? Could it get any better?  They can improve inks and
paper, but print quality? It will be interesting to see the ad copy on their next line of printers.... 5600 DPI Print Quality! 16 inches
Wide! 2 minutes for a 16x20 Print! $499!


Incidentally, FYI, Somerset now has 4 coated papers of various thickness' and textures. They are all the same color, and print identically.
None has as good a black as Epson Archival or Legion Photo Matte.

In any event, all the prints in the Piezo exchange were pretty good quality, no?  Mine had a black at least as deep as any of them, and it
was the MIS Hextone VM ink.

We should stop picking nits and get to work printing.  But it will never ever happen. There's always this one more paper or another inkset
coming out......

There IS a new inkset just out, the indelibles. But they are too expensive for me to test. And then there's the Eclipse, the Photo Rag,
the...... You get the picture. Always something new, and you KNOW we'll test it and pick the nits out of the blacks....

jerry



Jerry

Jerry! I'am thinking I do don't have MIS 's best black. The smell is the same 
as the other inks. and Its obviously lighter than piezo black so maybe is 
double density or standard. 
When I call MIS tommorrow, which Black MIS ink should I ask for regarding a 
six ink 7000. And how should I expect the Label to read?
Steve M.

Steve, MIS makes FIVE different black inks!

Tell Bob you want the blackest ink they sell!!!!

Jerry

>
> even if accounting for driver differances on paper like Royal plush.
> Very, Very tough to beat the 3000 and piezo inks.
> I'll call MIS tommorrow and see about a different black ink.
> Steve M>>>>
>

Yes, the correct ink you want definitely has the smell of alcohol and glycol in it. It's unmistakable, as the others don't seem to have an
odor.

I'd simply tell Bob you like GREAT blacks and you want the blackest ink available for the printer you have.

He's got the full spectrum blacks, the hextone variable blacks, the double density black, the standard mis inkset black, and black he uses
for his Color Archival inks. Sheesh, you'd think just the deepest one would do for everything, wouldn't you? I mean who wants a black that
isn't as black as it can be?

jerry