Digital BW, The Print

Phil:
I think what you are referring to here is a multi color press using separate
printing plates. Each carrying a different grade of black ink. This can also
be accomplished with multiple presses and passing the sheet through these
presses multiple times, with the sheet in register. I used to do this all
the time in my offset printing days. The idea was to get as much snap in the
blacks so the image looked like it would jump off the page.

Jim Davis
http://www.visual-artists.com
jarthurdavis@...
support@...
Fine art pigment print makers


> Mark,
>
> The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by running
> two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.  In areas of
> solid black, the additional printer lays down another layer of black
> ink (actually beneath the main ink layer).  This effectively increases
> the DMax by further blocking light to the sheet, and produces better
> depth.  This method also works well when running a duotone with, say,
> black and a PMS gray ink.  As with Piezography, the tonal range is
> divided up between the 2 inks, the gray handles the highs, black the
> lows with some mixing in the midtones.  Again, the gray, which goes
> onto the sheet first, underlays the blacks in the deep shadows,
> allowing better maximum black as in the above scenario.  The ultimate
> print is achieved by adding still more printers with additional grays
> to continue to divide the tonal range, and perhaps a gloss varnish for
> the silver print look.  This is where the idea for quad black printing
> initially came from.
>
> Cheers,
> Phil
> http://philbard.com
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink
> > system. Use
> > > the black and a 50% dilution of the black.
> >
> > In commercial offset printing, there is a technique known as
> > "double-dot black" printing. I did a poster in that method years
> > ago. I don't know any of the details about it, but my guess is that
> > it's a "budget" way to pump up the richness of the blacks, while
> > still running one color of black only. (If I'm wrong, someone
> > correct me here). So this would be similar to what you're
> > suggesting.
> >
> > I just shot a calendar this week for a liquor company. They're
> > known to print only b/w in their ads, and I mean one hit of black
> > only. The designer is nudging them to try to get them to at least
> > spring for a double-dot black, to add as much depth as possible.
> >
> > Also in commercial printing, there is general acceptance that you
> > get more richness if you print at least a duotone, a tritone, or
> > even CMYK-neutral to get the most richness out of a B/W image.
> > It makes sense, since you're stacking up all those layers of ink.
> > But wasn't it pretty stunning to see what just ONE hit of black-only
> > could do with the Epson? I totally agree with you about the look of
> > a "B/W photograph". I wish there was a way to run the Black
> > channel at full strength, but then be able to back down all the
> > other five inks in my 7000 to about quarter-strength, to add some
> > richness, but also to eliminate that pesky color crossover.
> >
> > -http://marktucker.com
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Yes, Jim.  I was responding to Mark's post regarding commercial-offset 
printing and double-black, as he called it.  See his post below.  I'm 
not implying this can necessarily be done with inkjet printers, 
although I suppose it's possible depending on the inkset...

Phil
http://philbard.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "J. Arthur Davis" <
jarthurdavis@e...> wrote:

> Phil:
> I think what you are referring to here is a multi color press using separate
> printing plates. Each carrying a different grade of black ink. This can also
> be accomplished with multiple presses and passing the sheet through these
> presses multiple times, with the sheet in register. I used to do this all
> the time in my offset printing days. The idea was to get as much snap in the
> blacks so the image looked like it would jump off the page.
> 
> Jim Davis
> http://www.visual-artists.com
> jarthurdavis@v...
> support@i...
> Fine art pigment print makers
> 
> 
> > Mark,
> >
> > The double hit of black your referring to is accomplished by running
> > two printers (ie. ink rollers) both loaded with black ink.  In areas of
> > solid black, the additional printer lays down another layer of black
> > ink (actually beneath the main ink layer).  This effectively increases
> > the DMax by further blocking light to the sheet, and produces better
> > depth.  This method also works well when running a duotone with, say,
> > black and a PMS gray ink.  As with Piezography, the tonal range is
> > divided up between the 2 inks, the gray handles the highs, black the
> > lows with some mixing in the midtones.  Again, the gray, which goes
> > onto the sheet first, underlays the blacks in the deep shadows,
> > allowing better maximum black as in the above scenario.  The ultimate
> > print is achieved by adding still more printers with additional grays
> > to continue to divide the tonal range, and perhaps a gloss varnish for
> > the silver print look.  This is where the idea for quad black printing
> > initially came from.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Phil
> > http://philbard.com
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> > wrote:
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley"
> > > <mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> > > > This leads me to wonder what you could do with a duo-ink
> > > system. Use
> > > > the black and a 50% dilution of the black.
> > >
> > > In commercial offset printing, there is a technique known as
> > > "double-dot black" printing. I did a poster in that method years
> > > ago. I don't know any of the details about it, but my guess is that
> > > it's a "budget" way to pump up the richness of the blacks, while
> > > still running one color of black only. (If I'm wrong, someone
> > > correct me here). So this would be similar to what you're
> > > suggesting.
> > >
> > > I just shot a calendar this week for a liquor company. They're
> > > known to print only b/w in their ads, and I mean one hit of black
> > > only. The designer is nudging them to try to get them to at least
> > > spring for a double-dot black, to add as much depth as possible.
> > >
> > > Also in commercial printing, there is general acceptance that you
> > > get more richness if you print at least a duotone, a tritone, or
> > > even CMYK-neutral to get the most richness out of a B/W image.
> > > It makes sense, since you're stacking up all those layers of ink.
> > > But wasn't it pretty stunning to see what just ONE hit of black-only
> > > could do with the Epson? I totally agree with you about the look of
> > > a "B/W photograph". I wish there was a way to run the Black
> > > channel at full strength, but then be able to back down all the
> > > other five inks in my 7000 to about quarter-strength, to add some
> > > richness, but also to eliminate that pesky color crossover.
> > >
> > > -http://marktucker.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

Several years ago I looked at creating direct mail peices of my 
B&W work. I investigated multiple press passes through Black 
ink. But multiple black is more than just repeating the black run 
to lay down more black on top of the previous black. A second or 
third separation is created with a different screen angle. The 
idea is to get better resolution and use finer dot sizes. Thus 
more shades are available which translates into smoother 
transition zones and an apparent Dmax greater than what's 
possible with one black.


regards,

H. Gregory Porter
The Porter Gallery

Mark, I just printed some photos with the epson archival paper at 2880, with the VM black ink.  You got the standard ink, which is not as
black as the VM ink.

The print (rocks and lichen, lots of texture,) printed absolutely beautiful. Beautiful tone, sharper that I thought, deeper blacks than I
have ever seen outside epson's dye black ink, and just all around terrific. There was one small patch of medium gray water, where there were
Tiny dots and artifacts, but nowhere near as bad as they are at 1440 DPI. They can be dismissed in this case as it is a small area, and you
have to get 4 inches or so from the print to see them at all.

The same technique doesn't work for photo matte paper from legion. The dark water reflections of the rocks, which are detailed, but about
zone 3 and below, was just one solid mass of dripping wet black ink on that paper.

Haven't tried other papers yet.

> Sorry, Jerry. Forgot to specify. I have the MIS 6-color dyes loaded.
>

That set comes with the standard black unless you order the double density or the VM variable tone black. Both are deeper black than the one
you have. Also, You could use the enhanced black from generations, that too is a very deep black and is compatible with the mIS inks.

Jerry