Digital BW, The Print

Martin, yes, the MIS variable toned inks DO have colors in them They are colored by bob zeiss so the user need not do it himself. I'ts a
fairly complex procedure, trying to follow his formula. I'm really very pleased with the neutral and cool curve and these inks.

IF i have a picture that has no smooth tones, I'll probably use just the black ink, because the print does appear just a hair sharper, and
the black is in fact deeper than the 4 tone ink print. This appears to be a very good way to go for tree branches, rocks, and grasses.

Jerry

>
> What all this makes me wonder if the other 3 inks in the quads really
> are just dilutions of the black? Seems to me if they were, you would
> still have that incredible neutral tone I see in the mono-ink print
> where the paper color dominates the tone of the print.
>
> There is obviously some toning in the Piezo inks and I think there
> must be some in the 75% and 50% of the MIS VM as well.

there is

>
>
> I, for one, would be very interested in a true neutral ink set. Maybe
> even a duo to tri tone system. Think about how close you can get with
> just the black. What if you just split the duty between a 100% and a
> 50%? Or a 100%, 50% and 25%?

Hard to get a true neutral set. What looks neutral to you may not to me. Just look at all the people who have said they believe that piezo
inks make neutral prints.  I have hundreds of piezo prints. not one of them is neutral. They are all various shades of brown, depending on
paper. On the Torchon paper, I must admit the print approaches a neutral tone.

However, under tungsten light, the piezo prints do appear neutral. They look nicer under this light than diffused daylight, to me.

> I think what you saw on the Legion is just a paper "profile" issue.
> You could probably come up with a correction curve to get better
> results.

I suppose, but I have no idea how to make a black and white profile.

Jerry

There have been several comments about how neutral the black-ink-only
printing is.  However, according to my scanner, (and eyes) the MIS VM black
is not entirely neutral (at least on EAM), it's medium warm with a touch of
green.

Comparing essentially same-density areas (about 50%) of a VM black-only test
strip to the full MIS VM (variable-tone) inkset, both on EAM, these are the
RGB readings I get:

VM Black-only RGB = 121/123/117.

MIS VM (variable-tone vmq-mw curve on 1160) RGB = 125/125/121

I look at visual "warmth" as the red channel being more than the blue
channel.  The unit differences are what appears to matter, not percentage
differences.  Here, the two are the same -- red is 4 units more than blue.
So, I'd call the VM black-only print medium warm.

Looking at the green channel, the black-only has a touch of green compared
to the variable-tone -- the green channel is up 2 units, relative to the
other channels, compared to the variable-tone test strip.

The VM black-only print will look neutral compared to the standard MIS quads
because it is a different black than used in the standard MIS quads.  The VM
black is essentially the same as Piezo black.

In the MIS VM midtones, it is the standard MIS black that is used, diluted
in the cyan, and toned with light archival cyan and magenta pigments in the
toner.  There are no other colors added to the VM inkset.

I think the MIS quad black was best as a base for the VM midtones, in part,
because the VM (Piezo-equivalent) black, as great as it is for a black ink,
does have more green in it -- meaning it's shade is more green.  I do not
think there are any colors added to either the VM black or the MIS standard
quad black or midtones.  It's just a question of the tone of the black
colorant that covers the carbon particles and how it all looks on the
particular paper.

Given the differences in papers (and remember also the warm-shifting) it is
impossible to have an ink be neutral for all papers and ages.  That is one
reason I felt the availability of the sliders in the variable-tone inksets
was important.  Each person can tune the inks to the color (within the
cool-warm range of the inkset) that fits the paper and individual
preferences.

Just my 2 bits worth ...

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I agree that the mono-ink print on EAM is a bit to the warm side. 
Nick's print seemed a bit warmer yet because it was on Heavy Weight 
Matte rather than EAM. In my try at this, the tone of the mono-ink 
print seemed similar to the color of the EAM and with the full MIS VM 
quads with the neutral curve the overall tone was cooler as expected 
since the toning ink is in play.
 
Is it possible that the mono-ink print does not show the tone of the 
ink as much as the quad inks from the same black because each dot 
laid down is 100%. As the same ink is diluted with base the color of 
the ink may become more apparent. I would expect that it would be 
more difficult to distinguish colorcasts in a pure black than in a 
mid tone.

Martin




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> There have been several comments about how neutral the black-ink-
only
> printing is.  However, according to my scanner, (and eyes) the MIS 
VM black
> is not entirely neutral (at least on EAM), it's medium warm with a 
touch of
> green.
> 
> Comparing essentially same-density areas (about 50%) of a VM black-
only test
> strip to the full MIS VM (variable-tone) inkset, both on EAM, these 
are the
> RGB readings I get:
> 
> VM Black-only RGB = 121/123/117.
> 
> MIS VM (variable-tone vmq-mw curve on 1160) RGB = 125/125/121
> 
> I look at visual "warmth" as the red channel being more than the 
blue
> channel.  The unit differences are what appears to matter, not 
percentage
> differences.  Here, the two are the same -- red is 4 units more 
than blue.
> So, I'd call the VM black-only print medium warm.
> 
> Looking at the green channel, the black-only has a touch of green 
compared
> to the variable-tone -- the green channel is up 2 units, relative 
to the
> other channels, compared to the variable-tone test strip.
> 
> The VM black-only print will look neutral compared to the standard 
MIS quads
> because it is a different black than used in the standard MIS 
quads.  The VM
> black is essentially the same as Piezo black.
> 
> In the MIS VM midtones, it is the standard MIS black that is used, 
diluted
> in the cyan, and toned with light archival cyan and magenta 
pigments in the
> toner.  There are no other colors added to the VM inkset.
> 
> I think the MIS quad black was best as a base for the VM midtones, 
in part,
> because the VM (Piezo-equivalent) black, as great as it is for a 
black ink,
> does have more green in it -- meaning it's shade is more green.  I 
do not
> think there are any colors added to either the VM black or the MIS 
standard
> quad black or midtones.  It's just a question of the tone of the 
black
> colorant that covers the carbon particles and how it all looks on 
the
> particular paper.
> 
> Given the differences in papers (and remember also the warm-
shifting) it is
> impossible to have an ink be neutral for all papers and ages.  That 
is one
> reason I felt the availability of the sliders in the variable-tone 
inksets
> was important.  Each person can tune the inks to the color (within 
the

> cool-warm range of the inkset) that fits the paper and individual
> preferences.
> 
> Just my 2 bits worth ...
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I am ordering the MIS Archival color inks as soon as they get them in 
cartridges, which, according to MIS will be in 2 weeks. Which black 
should I order with them? All the talk about blacks has me confused. 
I print duotone b/w images which allows me to use color inks and 
helps me avoid all the problems with hextones. Plus, I prefer the 
selenium look to my duotones. I print to a 1280 and use Torchon and 
soon eclipse Satine as soon as it arrives. 
 I don't have any profiles other than the ones that came with the 
printer, do I need profiles if I'm printing duotones? Thank you for 
your continued help, I really appreciate it.

Best regards,

Tim

www.portraitsofnature.net 











--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> There have been several comments about how neutral the black-ink-
only
> printing is.  However, according to my scanner, (and eyes) the MIS 
VM black
> is not entirely neutral (at least on EAM), it's medium warm with a 
touch of
> green.
> 
> Comparing essentially same-density areas (about 50%) of a VM black-
only test
> strip to the full MIS VM (variable-tone) inkset, both on EAM, these 
are the
> RGB readings I get:
> 
> VM Black-only RGB = 121/123/117.
> 
> MIS VM (variable-tone vmq-mw curve on 1160) RGB = 125/125/121
> 
> I look at visual "warmth" as the red channel being more than the 
blue
> channel.  The unit differences are what appears to matter, not 
percentage
> differences.  Here, the two are the same -- red is 4 units more 
than blue.
> So, I'd call the VM black-only print medium warm.
> 
> Looking at the green channel, the black-only has a touch of green 
compared
> to the variable-tone -- the green channel is up 2 units, relative 
to the
> other channels, compared to the variable-tone test strip.
> 
> The VM black-only print will look neutral compared to the standard 
MIS quads
> because it is a different black than used in the standard MIS 
quads.  The VM
> black is essentially the same as Piezo black.
> 
> In the MIS VM midtones, it is the standard MIS black that is used, 
diluted
> in the cyan, and toned with light archival cyan and magenta 
pigments in the
> toner.  There are no other colors added to the VM inkset.
> 
> I think the MIS quad black was best as a base for the VM midtones, 
in part,
> because the VM (Piezo-equivalent) black, as great as it is for a 
black ink,
> does have more green in it -- meaning it's shade is more green.  I 
do not
> think there are any colors added to either the VM black or the MIS 
standard
> quad black or midtones.  It's just a question of the tone of the 
black
> colorant that covers the carbon particles and how it all looks on 
the
> particular paper.
> 
> Given the differences in papers (and remember also the warm-
shifting) it is
> impossible to have an ink be neutral for all papers and ages.  That 
is one
> reason I felt the availability of the sliders in the variable-tone 
inksets
> was important.  Each person can tune the inks to the color (within 
the

> cool-warm range of the inkset) that fits the paper and individual
> preferences.
> 
> Just my 2 bits worth ...
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com