Digital BW, The Print

My first question, maybe its a dumb one, but, If your comparing black ink 
only and have black ink only selected in the driver why would you run a curve 
on the file before printing? Or did you?
Does anyone have a piece of junk black tests they can send me? Showing VM or 
Full spectrum MIS black ink! preferably on jazz or Plush.
I have Vm black loaded in my 7000 and On Jazz paper, piezo black makes this 
black look faded! It seems most likely that MIS black inks don't like this 
paper
The difference on EAM isn't as obvious. It just dawned on me most of you guys 
are printing on EAM or something similar so I can only conclude that MIS 
black does not like this paper or Royal plush for that matter. 
Are MIS inks compatible with Piezo inks? I don't think its possible to flush 
just one position and I'am thinking  load Piezo black in there so I can print 
on the small fortune I have in Jazz and Plush paper.
With Jerry and Paul, and others saying that VM black and Piezo black are 
identicle! do they mean only on one paper? like EAM?
Steve Meyers
no good blacks with MIS VM BLACK on Jazz or Plush.


In a message dated 09/05/2001 5:27:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
paul.roark@... writes:

<< There have been several comments about how neutral the black-ink-only
 printing is.  However, according to my scanner, (and eyes) the MIS VM black
 is not entirely neutral (at least on EAM), it's medium warm with a touch of
 green.
 
 Comparing essentially same-density areas (about 50%) of a VM black-only test
 strip to the full MIS VM (variable-tone) inkset, both on EAM, these are the
 RGB readings I get:
 
 VM Black-only RGB = 121/123/117.
 
 MIS VM (variable-tone vmq-mw curve on 1160) RGB = 125/125/121 >>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
snip
> no good blacks with MIS VM BLACK on Jazz or Plush.

Comparative L values (from LAB Spectrocam measurements)-

Piezo ink , 3000, RGB driver- 15.14
Steve's MIS VM, 7000, RGB driver- 20.75
Old MIS set, 3000, PressReady (probably bumped with the next darkest ink)- 15.72

These were all on Lysonic Fine Art/ Royal Plush. The old MIS reading is from an old print I have here from years ago, so it's 
the old MIS black (there was only one). The workflow from back then has gone to workflow heaven, I don't have the 
specifics.
The current black in the 7000 is clearly deficient. Any input from people experienced with both the Piezo and the MIS on this 
paper, or Wells River, would help a lot.
Any comments about the "double density" ink would be apreciated also.
Thanks, Tyler

Tyler, Steve,

I ran a test image of a 1" 100% black square four times on the same 
piece of paper. Once on Torchon and once on Hahnemule Photo Rag 
188gsm. I scanned the 8 patches together with my Linoscan 1400 and 
its cheesy software. In Photoshop I applied a levels adjustment layer 
and brought the white and black points in to slightly outside the 
ends of the histogram. I then selected each square and did a 
histogram. Here is what I got:

Torchon: Luminosity - Mean, Std. Dev., Median 

Piezo Ink and Driver: 94.28, 21.88, 90
Piezo Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 67.26, 9.68, 66
MIS VM Ink and Neutral Curve, Epson Driver RGB: 69.00, 11.40, 67
MIS VM Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 64.70, 8.81, 64

Hahnemule Photo Rag: Luminosity - Mean, Std. Dev., Median

Piezo Ink and Driver: 89.17, 11.92, 87
Piezo Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 64.18, 7.50, 63
MIS VM Ink and Neutral Curve, Epson Driver RGB: 64.34, 7.23, 64
MIS VM Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 64.33, 7.91, 63

This information is obviously meaningless as an absolute value but 
should be a reasonable comparison. On Torchon the MIS VM black is 
slightly darker. On the Photo Rag I would say they are the same. The 
difference in Std Dev on the Torchon is probably surface related.

The Piezo driver must be running more of the lighter inks into the 
black giving a higher luminosity reading.

All this seems to confirm earlier reports that the Piezo and MIS VM 
blacks are very similar. Also confirms that the Piezo inks are 
capable of deeper blacks than the Piezo driver produces.

Hope this is of some use.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> snip
> > no good blacks with MIS VM BLACK on Jazz or Plush.
> 
> Comparative L values (from LAB Spectrocam measurements)-
> 
> Piezo ink , 3000, RGB driver- 15.14
> Steve's MIS VM, 7000, RGB driver- 20.75
> Old MIS set, 3000, PressReady (probably bumped with the next 
darkest ink)- 15.72
> 
> These were all on Lysonic Fine Art/ Royal Plush. The old MIS 
reading is from an old print I have here from years ago, so it's 
> the old MIS black (there was only one). The workflow from back then 
has gone to workflow heaven, I don't have the 
> specifics.
> The current black in the 7000 is clearly deficient. Any input from 
people experienced with both the Piezo and the MIS on this 
> paper, or Wells River, would help a lot.
> Any comments about the "double density" ink would be apreciated 
also.
> Thanks, Tyler

Tyler, Steve,

Forgot to note that the Piezo inks were run on a 1200 and the MIS VM 
on a 1280.

MIS VM print on the Torchon with the neutral curve looks pretty good. 
Needs a Transfer Function Curve though.

The Hahnemule Photo Rag is closer but still needs some adjusting. 
Photo Rag has same base color as Torchon but is smooth. Not quite as 
smooth as Legion Photo Matte or EAM. Not quite as white as EAM.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> Tyler, Steve,
> 
> I ran a test image of a 1" 100% black square four times on the same 
> piece of paper. Once on Torchon and once on Hahnemule Photo Rag 
> 188gsm. I scanned the 8 patches together with my Linoscan 1400 and 
> its cheesy software. In Photoshop I applied a levels adjustment 
layer 
> and brought the white and black points in to slightly outside the 
> ends of the histogram. I then selected each square and did a 
> histogram. Here is what I got:
> 
> Torchon: Luminosity - Mean, Std. Dev., Median 
> 
> Piezo Ink and Driver: 94.28, 21.88, 90
> Piezo Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 67.26, 9.68, 66
> MIS VM Ink and Neutral Curve, Epson Driver RGB: 69.00, 11.40, 67
> MIS VM Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 64.70, 8.81, 64
> 
> Hahnemule Photo Rag: Luminosity - Mean, Std. Dev., Median
> 
> Piezo Ink and Driver: 89.17, 11.92, 87
> Piezo Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 64.18, 7.50, 63
> MIS VM Ink and Neutral Curve, Epson Driver RGB: 64.34, 7.23, 64
> MIS VM Ink and Epson Driver Black Only: 64.33, 7.91, 63
> 
> This information is obviously meaningless as an absolute value but 
> should be a reasonable comparison. On Torchon the MIS VM black is 
> slightly darker. On the Photo Rag I would say they are the same. 
The 
> difference in Std Dev on the Torchon is probably surface related.
> 
> The Piezo driver must be running more of the lighter inks into the 
> black giving a higher luminosity reading.
> 
> All this seems to confirm earlier reports that the Piezo and MIS VM 
> blacks are very similar. Also confirms that the Piezo inks are 
> capable of deeper blacks than the Piezo driver produces.
> 
> Hope this is of some use.
> 
> Martin
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., sdmey4@a... wrote:
> > snip
> > > no good blacks with MIS VM BLACK on Jazz or Plush.
> > 
> > Comparative L values (from LAB Spectrocam measurements)-
> > 
> > Piezo ink , 3000, RGB driver- 15.14
> > Steve's MIS VM, 7000, RGB driver- 20.75
> > Old MIS set, 3000, PressReady (probably bumped with the next 
> darkest ink)- 15.72
> > 
> > These were all on Lysonic Fine Art/ Royal Plush. The old MIS 
> reading is from an old print I have here from years ago, so it's 
> > the old MIS black (there was only one). The workflow from back 
then 
> has gone to workflow heaven, I don't have the 
> > specifics.
> > The current black in the 7000 is clearly deficient. Any input 
from 

> people experienced with both the Piezo and the MIS on this 
> > paper, or Wells River, would help a lot.
> > Any comments about the "double density" ink would be apreciated 
> also.
> > Thanks, Tyler