Digital BW, The Print

Greetings!

The following post is an excerpt of what I sent to the Piezo list.  I am using PiezoBW inks but the basics of the message may be of interest to people using other inks. 

I have great news.  After some careful testing of a new paper (it is scheduled to be distributed in the US in August/September), I have found what may be the IDEAL paper for archival BW prints.  That is a bold statement so let me back it up with some facts and observations:

1. The paper in question is made by Hahnemuhle in Germany. And..no I don't work for them.  I just like their papers and those of other manufacturers too.

2.  The paper is 100% rag, acid free,  white, and very very smooth!  I tested the paper with a Lineco ph test pen and it indicated deep purple (acid free-buffered) on the front coated side and lavender (acid free-neutral) on the backside.

3.  The paper is comes in two weights 188gsm and 308gsm.

4.  The paper is called Hahnemuhle Watercolor Rag Smooth  (HWRS)

Now here are some observations:

5.  This paper is much smoother than Orwell, William Turner (190 or 310), German Etching. Comparing the Orwell 310 and HWRS 308, the Orwell feels like sandpaper in the hand (blind touch test).  Big difference.  This is one of the smoothest papers I have felt...not counting glossy papers.  Think Mercedes paint job smooth. 

6.   HWRS is even smoother than Museo or Concorde Rag (by a little for either).  It is so smooth that the 188 weight has the feel of...ready?......a baby's bottom.  That smooth.  As smooth as Conetech Matte/Hahnemuhle Matte/EAM. 

7. HWRS is white and has the same tone as Orwell (not the same surface), similar to Museo, and very slightly warmer than EAM (which is very bright white).  I don't want you to think this is a warm tone paper like Allegretto or Concorde Rag though.  You have to see them side by side.  

8.  HWRS comes in two weights and the lighter 188 has a very distinct feel to it.  I held it and EAM side by side (each in a different hand) and you can feel a  difference.  I can best describe it this way...EAM feels like a cheap index card.  HWRS feels like a piece of rag cotton writing paper.  I believe the rag fibers make a difference in the hand/feel of the paper.  The EAM is slightly stiffer while the HWRS has a suppleness that feels like quality.  

9.  HWRS 308 is very substantial and feels almost the same as Orwell/William Turner 310 for weight. Identical I would say to feel it.  What do you expect?  But the smoother finish of the HWRS is noticeable too. 

Now some comparisons of the print using my test image.  By the way this image is the very same one I have used on all of my test papers.  I have described it before but here goes again...It is a real world test image of a portrait of a woman with luminous skin, 18% grey solid backdrop, and the woman has jet black hair.  The skin tones, solid black areas, and solid grey areas are tough.  I am critical of detail in the skin/eyelashes etc.. I think this test image is better than a greyscale ramp because we all know what to look for in skin, eyes, hair, etc.. and the "natural look" is very important. 

10.  HWRS printed better solid grey areas than Museo.  Nice even grey tones.

11.  HWRS printed better black than Concorde Rag. More neutral black..deeper. 

12.  HWRS (using Conetech Matte profile) printed identical image as Epson Archival Matte (EAM, using Conetech Matte Profile).  The only way I could tell them apart at first look was the slightly cooler tone of the EAM  in the "unprinted" border areas...and that was only when the two prints were overlapping.  When they are looked at one at a time, there is no visible difference.  This is good news for EAM fans who want the sharp details, high dmax, and also want a true archival paper that is acid free. 

13.  Oddly, the HWRS printed a solid black that looked more neutral than EAM.  I say this is odd because the HWRS paper has a slightly (!) warmer tone in unprinted areas.  But the solid black area on the EAM has a slightly warmer look in black.  It must be the way the Piezo inks react to the paper coatings.  In short, when compared side by side or one overlapping the other, the EAM black looked slightly warmer than the HWRS black.  Surprised as I was, I looked at this very carefully several different times/ways in a color corrected lighting area.  While others may doubt this, I only post it because it was an observation.

14.  HWRS printed "better" (seems darker because of smooth finish) solid blacks than Somerset Enhanced (SSE).  Using the very same image, the HWRS has smoother grey areas and finer details (eyelashes) and slightly deeper blacks.  While SSE is one of my favorite papers, HWRS has some distinct advantages for highly detailed work.  I say advantages...with some caveat.  The portrait image using HWRS now shows some of the fine line wrinkles that were not apparent in the SSE or Orwell prints of the same image!  A client (woman) may not want to see that level of detail!  So there are still good reasons to use papers with more texture.  Texture can hide some details you don't want seen.  If that is important, SSE may be the better choice.

Well, that is enough to get you started.  I am convinced that this paper is excellent for portraits and fine detailed images.  It is archival and made from a very reputable firm.  I will begin using it as soon as it is available.  Now for some likely questions: 

15. How much is it?  
I don't know.  I called Hahnemuhle and several distributors.  Pricing is not set yet at the distributor level.  Will it cost more than EAM?  I should expect so and would not mind paying more for the quality and true archival character (and it doesn't say "Epson" all over the back either!).  I imagine it will price somewhere like Museo or Somerset Enhanced...the closest competitors in my opinion.

16.  Who sells it?  
Hahnemuhle distributors/dealers will.  Inkjetmall.com is a Hahnemuhle dealer.  Will they carry it?  I don't know.  I do hope Jon Cone will pick this one up ASAP and give us a good price.  That would make good business sense.  Let's hope.  The paper is NOT available at this time...it is on a boat crossing the Atlantic presumably...so don't sweat it or ask me where to get it.  No one in the US has it.  That will change later in August/September.   

17.  What Profile should I use?
I printed the same image using the Orwell profile (on 308gsm) and Conetech Matte profile (on 188gsm).  Both looked excellent.  Almost identical. Only a little more ink in the shadow areas on the grey backdrop section of image.  Otherwise they looked identical.  If I had to choose one for this image (remember it has luminous skin) I would pick the CTM profile.  And let's not diminish the role of the profile.  A great profile yields great results on a great paper.  

For final comparison, I tried the same image on even another (will remain unnamed) 100% rag coated inkjet paper (300+ gsm).  The image looked vastly different.  You might say...no comparison in image quality. 

In sum, I can't wait to use this paper.  While it may not suit some needs, if you are looking for a matte paper that is truly archival and produces outstanding results with conetech profiles and inks, this paper will surprise you.  It surprised me...pleasantly.

Good light to all,   its late now so must sign off....

Steadman


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,
the paper you are discribing is called Photo Rag 188, 308 
(working name) in Germany. A sample set was sent by 
Hahnemühle to me yesterday, but the postmann didn´t get me at 
home today, so the parcel will be redelivered tomorrow. After 
having read your statement I will get no sleep this night waiting 
anxiously for the sunrise.

BTW wasn´t it you who reported on Schoellershammer 
Watercolor Rough before on the Piezo list (see my message on 
this list). The papers seem to be rather alike. Did you compare 
them??
Bernd








--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Greetings!

> I have great news.  After some careful testing of a new paper (it 
is scheduled to be distributed in the US in August/September), I 
have found what may be the IDEAL paper for archival BW prints.  
That is a bold statement so let me back it up with some facts 
and observations:
> 
> 1. The paper in question is made by Hahnemuhle in Germany. 
And..no I don't work for them.  I just like their papers and those of 
other manufacturers too.
> 
> 2.  The paper is 100% rag, acid free,  white, and very very 
smooth!  I tested the paper with a Lineco ph test pen and it 
indicated deep purple (acid free-buffered) on the front coated 
side and lavender (acid free-neutral) on the backside.
> 
> 3.  The paper is comes in two weights 188gsm and 308gsm.
> 
> 4.  The paper is called Hahnemuhle Watercolor Rag Smooth  
(HWRS)

Steadman,

now look what you've done: I have lost all enthusiasm to print on my vast 
stock of Orwell, Tunbridge, Wells River and EAM. Or rather, I will crank 
through everything to make space in October for Hahnemuhle Photo Rag. <g>

I appreciate the thorough review and the use of  a "real world" image for the 
test. If, however, you still have a small bit of unprinted paper and can print a 
small square of 100% black and send it to me, I could put a number on it. I am 
just curious if it beats the 1.65 Hahnemuhle standard. (If you are interested in 
this, please email me).

With any luck, Jon Cone (hope you are following this, Bill Bergh! <s>)  will 
profile it as well as carry it. Those profiles are due for an update anyway. A 
bunch in there that no one seems to use. Outside of ct matte, Orwell, 
Concorde Rag and Sommerset, I doubt the rest are of much use. I would 
rather see Museo and Photo Rag instead.

Thanks again for the great news!

Antonis

Steadman,

Thank you for all the information. I does indeed sound like the 
answer for all us EAM users!

Waiting for this is going to be murder!!

If it comes out in Europe first maybe we can order some from an EU 
supplier.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> Greetings!
> 
> The following post is an excerpt of what I sent to the Piezo list.  
I am using PiezoBW inks but the basics of the message may be of 
interest to people using other inks. 
> 
> I have great news.  After some careful testing of a new paper (it 
is scheduled to be distributed in the US in August/September), I have 
found what may be the IDEAL paper for archival BW prints.  That is a 
bold statement so let me back it up with some facts and observations:
> 
> 1. The paper in question is made by Hahnemuhle in Germany. And..no 
I don't work for them.  I just like their papers and those of other 
manufacturers too.
> 
> 2.  The paper is 100% rag, acid free,  white, and very very 
smooth!  I tested the paper with a Lineco ph test pen and it 
indicated deep purple (acid free-buffered) on the front coated side 
and lavender (acid free-neutral) on the backside.
> 
> 3.  The paper is comes in two weights 188gsm and 308gsm.
> 
> 4.  The paper is called Hahnemuhle Watercolor Rag Smooth  (HWRS)
> 
> Now here are some observations:
> 
> 5.  This paper is much smoother than Orwell, William Turner (190 or 
310), German Etching. Comparing the Orwell 310 and HWRS 308, the 
Orwell feels like sandpaper in the hand (blind touch test).  Big 
difference.  This is one of the smoothest papers I have felt...not 
counting glossy papers.  Think Mercedes paint job smooth. 
> 
> 6.   HWRS is even smoother than Museo or Concorde Rag (by a little 
for either).  It is so smooth that the 188 weight has the feel 
of...ready?......a baby's bottom.  That smooth.  As smooth as 
Conetech Matte/Hahnemuhle Matte/EAM. 
> 
> 7. HWRS is white and has the same tone as Orwell (not the same 
surface), similar to Museo, and very slightly warmer than EAM (which 
is very bright white).  I don't want you to think this is a warm tone 
paper like Allegretto or Concorde Rag though.  You have to see them 
side by side.  
> 
> 8.  HWRS comes in two weights and the lighter 188 has a very 
distinct feel to it.  I held it and EAM side by side (each in a 
different hand) and you can feel a  difference.  I can best describe 
it this way...EAM feels like a cheap index card.  HWRS feels like a 
piece of rag cotton writing paper.  I believe the rag fibers make a 
difference in the hand/feel of the paper.  The EAM is slightly 
stiffer while the HWRS has a suppleness that feels like quality.  
> 
> 9.  HWRS 308 is very substantial and feels almost the same as 
Orwell/William Turner 310 for weight. Identical I would say to feel 
it.  What do you expect?  But the smoother finish of the HWRS is 
noticeable too. 
> 
> Now some comparisons of the print using my test image.  By the way 
this image is the very same one I have used on all of my test 
papers.  I have described it before but here goes again...It is a 
real world test image of a portrait of a woman with luminous skin, 
18% grey solid backdrop, and the woman has jet black hair.  The skin 
tones, solid black areas, and solid grey areas are tough.  I am 
critical of detail in the skin/eyelashes etc.. I think this test 
image is better than a greyscale ramp because we all know what to 
look for in skin, eyes, hair, etc.. and the "natural look" is very 
important. 
> 
> 10.  HWRS printed better solid grey areas than Museo.  Nice even 
grey tones.
> 
> 11.  HWRS printed better black than Concorde Rag. More neutral 
black..deeper. 
> 
> 12.  HWRS (using Conetech Matte profile) printed identical image as 
Epson Archival Matte (EAM, using Conetech Matte Profile).  The only 
way I could tell them apart at first look was the slightly cooler 
tone of the EAM  in the "unprinted" border areas...and that was only 
when the two prints were overlapping.  When they are looked at one at 
a time, there is no visible difference.  This is good news for EAM 
fans who want the sharp details, high dmax, and also want a true 
archival paper that is acid free. 
> 
> 13.  Oddly, the HWRS printed a solid black that looked more neutral 
than EAM.  I say this is odd because the HWRS paper has a slightly 
(!) warmer tone in unprinted areas.  But the solid black area on the 
EAM has a slightly warmer look in black.  It must be the way the 
Piezo inks react to the paper coatings.  In short, when compared side 
by side or one overlapping the other, the EAM black looked slightly 
warmer than the HWRS black.  Surprised as I was, I looked at this 
very carefully several different times/ways in a color corrected 
lighting area.  While others may doubt this, I only post it because 
it was an observation.
> 
> 14.  HWRS printed "better" (seems darker because of smooth finish) 
solid blacks than Somerset Enhanced (SSE).  Using the very same 
image, the HWRS has smoother grey areas and finer details (eyelashes) 
and slightly deeper blacks.  While SSE is one of my favorite papers, 
HWRS has some distinct advantages for highly detailed work.  I say 
advantages...with some caveat.  The portrait image using HWRS now 
shows some of the fine line wrinkles that were not apparent in the 
SSE or Orwell prints of the same image!  A client (woman) may not 
want to see that level of detail!  So there are still good reasons to 
use papers with more texture.  Texture can hide some details you 
don't want seen.  If that is important, SSE may be the better choice.
> 
> Well, that is enough to get you started.  I am convinced that this 
paper is excellent for portraits and fine detailed images.  It is 
archival and made from a very reputable firm.  I will begin using it 
as soon as it is available.  Now for some likely questions: 
> 
> 15. How much is it?  
> I don't know.  I called Hahnemuhle and several distributors.  
Pricing is not set yet at the distributor level.  Will it cost more 
than EAM?  I should expect so and would not mind paying more for the 
quality and true archival character (and it doesn't say "Epson" all 
over the back either!).  I imagine it will price somewhere like Museo 
or Somerset Enhanced...the closest competitors in my opinion.
> 
> 16.  Who sells it?  
> Hahnemuhle distributors/dealers will.  Inkjetmall.com is a 
Hahnemuhle dealer.  Will they carry it?  I don't know.  I do hope Jon 
Cone will pick this one up ASAP and give us a good price.  That would 
make good business sense.  Let's hope.  The paper is NOT available at 
this time...it is on a boat crossing the Atlantic presumably...so 
don't sweat it or ask me where to get it.  No one in the US has it.  
That will change later in August/September.   
> 
> 17.  What Profile should I use?
> I printed the same image using the Orwell profile (on 308gsm) and 
Conetech Matte profile (on 188gsm).  Both looked excellent.  Almost 
identical. Only a little more ink in the shadow areas on the grey 
backdrop section of image.  Otherwise they looked identical.  If I 
had to choose one for this image (remember it has luminous skin) I 
would pick the CTM profile.  And let's not diminish the role of the 
profile.  A great profile yields great results on a great paper.  
> 
> For final comparison, I tried the same image on even another (will 
remain unnamed) 100% rag coated inkjet paper (300+ gsm).  The image 
looked vastly different.  You might say...no comparison in image 
quality. 
> 
> In sum, I can't wait to use this paper.  While it may not suit some 
needs, if you are looking for a matte paper that is truly archival 
and produces outstanding results with conetech profiles and inks, 
this paper will surprise you.  It surprised me...pleasantly.

> 
> Good light to all,   its late now so must sign off....
> 
> Steadman
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steadman,

My dealer has 4 rolls on order for me. They thought it should be only 
a short while at this point.

Can't wait to test it. I only have 4 sheets of Torchon and 25 sheets 
of German Etching left, so I will need it soon.

Mike

Michael,

And your dealer is.....?

Really want to see this stuff!

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Michael J. Kravit" 
<kravit@b...> wrote:
> Steadman,
> 
> My dealer has 4 rolls on order for me. They thought it should be 
only 
> a short while at this point.
> 
> Can't wait to test it. I only have 4 sheets of Torchon and 25 
sheets 

> of German Etching left, so I will need it soon.
> 
> Mike

Steadman,
just couldn´t resist to make you a little jealous ;-)

Some minutes ago, I got my Photo Rag 308gsm  sample sheets 
from Hahnemühle. 
8 sheets of DIN A 2 (16"x23").
Now, how shall I use this treasure.
So many questions:
First: what shall I print? 
And then:  what profile. How many sheets shall I cut down 
and....shall I use one or two for color,  hhmmmm....? 
No,no, no.... no color, or?

To be serious:
though Hahnemühle says the coating is identicall to German 
Etching, they told me, the surface is a little brighter. At first glance 
I can´t see the difference. but maybe the Orwell profile won´t fit 
automatically best.  It seems that the CTM profile was best for 
you. Did you try others than Orwell meanwhile?
Help me not to waste ink and paper.
Thanks 
Bernd

PS
Hahnemuhle told me, they are just making the paper ready to 
ship. It isn´t shipped yet in quantities (just samples), but will be 
shipped to resellers mid to late August. So everybody be happy if 
you have some German Etching in stock.

Bernd,

You since you have contact with Hahnemule, would you be kind enough 
to ask them about the possibility of obtaining the new paper in 13" 
and 17" rolls? Do they have a process for special ordering something 
like this?

Thanks

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ruhrfoto@y... wrote:
> Steadman,
> just couldn´t resist to make you a little jealous ;-)
> 
> Some minutes ago, I got my Photo Rag 308gsm  sample sheets 
> from Hahnemühle. 
> 8 sheets of DIN A 2 (16"x23").
> Now, how shall I use this treasure.
> So many questions:
> First: what shall I print? 
> And then:  what profile. How many sheets shall I cut down 
> and....shall I use one or two for color,  hhmmmm....? 
> No,no, no.... no color, or?
> 
> To be serious:
> though Hahnemühle says the coating is identicall to German 
> Etching, they told me, the surface is a little brighter. At first 
glance 
> I can´t see the difference. but maybe the Orwell profile won´t fit 
> automatically best.  It seems that the CTM profile was best for 
> you. Did you try others than Orwell meanwhile?
> Help me not to waste ink and paper.
> Thanks 
> Bernd
> 
> PS
> Hahnemuhle told me, they are just making the paper ready to 
> ship. It isn´t shipped yet in quantities (just samples), but will 
be 
> shipped to resellers mid to late August. So everybody be happy if 
> you have some German Etching in stock.

I spoke to a Hahnemuhle representative today - he will be sending me some
samples of the new paper (I am way behind in that respect!) I'm afraid I
forgot to ask about narrower rolls, but they did confirm that the new paper
is available in 24" rolls - it's not publicised as much as the 36" + rolls.
Also, Gernam Etching, Torchon, William Turner 310, Albrecht Durer 210.

No prices available for the new paper in the UK yet... expect developments
within the next 2-3 weeks.

Nij

-----Original Message-----
From: mwesley250@... [mailto:mwesley250@...]
Sent: 03 August 2001 18:30
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Panorama Wunder Papier? was Re: Eureka: Wunder
Papier Found


Bernd,

You since you have contact with Hahnemule, would you be kind enough
to ask them about the possibility of obtaining the new paper in 13"
and 17" rolls? Do they have a process for special ordering something
like this?

Thanks

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., ruhrfoto@y... wrote:
> Steadman,
> just couldn\ufffdt resist to make you a little jealous ;-)
>
> Some minutes ago, I got my Photo Rag 308gsm  sample sheets
> from Hahnem\ufffdhle.
> 8 sheets of DIN A 2 (16"x23").
> Now, how shall I use this treasure.
> So many questions:
> First: what shall I print?
> And then:  what profile. How many sheets shall I cut down
> and....shall I use one or two for color,  hhmmmm....?
> No,no, no.... no color, or?
>
> To be serious:
> though Hahnem\ufffdhle says the coating is identicall to German
> Etching, they told me, the surface is a little brighter. At first
glance
> I can\ufffdt see the difference. but maybe the Orwell profile won\ufffdt fit
> automatically best.  It seems that the CTM profile was best for
> you. Did you try others than Orwell meanwhile?
> Help me not to waste ink and paper.
> Thanks
> Bernd
>
> PS
> Hahnemuhle told me, they are just making the paper ready to
> ship. It isn\ufffdt shipped yet in quantities (just samples), but will
be
> shipped to resellers mid to late August. So everybody be happy if
> you have some German Etching in stock.



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