Digital BW, The Print

Plastic technology is getting better I guess.
Mark

Robert Morrison wrote:

>  The papers that epson is rating for 60-75 years with the new
> Ultrachrome
> inks are simply RC base as well...so I wouldn't necessarily write off
> RC's
> based on the plastic base.  I think the issue here is what happens
> with the
> emulsion.
>
> Robert
>
> On 10/31/02 5:16 AM, "Mark Savoia" <mark@...> wrote:
>
> > Again I would think that the downfall would be the base of the print
> being
> > plastic. You should call Ilford Photo or Kodak (although Kodak seems
> to be
> > getting out of the b&w paper business) and get details, I am only
> talking from
> > my experience.
> > Mark
> >
> > Loris Medici wrote:
> >
> >> Thanks Mark,
> >>
> >> What about toned (selenium) RC prints?
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Mark Savoia" <mark@...>
> >> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:47 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Carbon-pigment inkjet print life vs.
> Conventional
> >> VC/MG RC print life?
> >>
> >>> I would think the RC print would not do well since it is just an
> emulsion
> >> coated onto plastic. I have seen prints go completely yellow within
> a couple
> >> of
> >>> years if exposed to airborne pollutants.
> >>> Mark
> >>
> >>
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>
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I believe that, in the ancient past, RC paper was, just that, resin 
coated paper. When fixed, the hypo would migrate into the edge of the 
paper where is was impossible to be extracted by washing. Over time, 
the hypo trapped in the paper would lead to the ruination of the print. 
OTOH, Ilofochrome (sp?) uses a polyester base. No paper to absorb 
anything.

So, does modern VCRC "paper" contain no actual paper that could absorb 
the hypo/fixer? Another consideration is the fact that whatever 
material we spray ink onto, it will not be subjected to B&W fixer nor 
to color fixer/bleach.

Plastics do age, often becoming brittle. Perhaps a combination of 
factors leads to the life expectancy Epson states. That might also 
include marketing's wishful thinking. I'm 56, whether something fades, 
or turns yellow, in 49 or 68 or 70 years is something I won't be 
calling them on! (lol)

Jim
San Diego

On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 08:27 AM, Mark Savoia wrote:

> Plastic technology is getting better I guess.
> Mark
>
> Robert Morrison wrote:
>
> >  The papers that epson is rating for 60-75 years with the new
> > Ultrachrome
> > inks are simply RC base as well...so I wouldn't necessarily write off
> > RC's
> > based on the plastic base.  I think the issue here is what happens
> > with the
> > emulsion.
> >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Touche'!
Ah, yes, but "fixed" how?

On Thursday, October 31, 2002, at 06:35 PM, Todd Flashner wrote:

>
>
> > I'm 56, whether something fades,
> > or turns yellow, in 49 or 68 or 70 years is something I won't be
> > calling them on! (lol)
>
> Perhaps if you were properly fixed you would...
>
> Todd
>
>
<image.tiff>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I'm 56, whether something fades,
> or turns yellow, in 49 or 68 or 70 years is something I won't be
> calling them on! (lol)

Perhaps if you were properly fixed you would...

Todd

Right, I'm 59 and I spend alot of time wondering what the flap is 
about whether a print lasts 50 or 54 years or even 10 years.  One 
thing about digital...you can do it again.

Jerry in Houston

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:

> 
> 
> > I'm 56, whether something fades,
> > or turns yellow, in 49 or 68 or 70 years is something I won't be
> > calling them on! (lol)
> 
> Perhaps if you were properly fixed you would...
> 
> Todd

Well... sure, you can do it again. But if you've printed hundreds 
or thousands of prints, sold some of them to people who bought 
them thinking they would last, and then they fade in ten years, 
to "do it again" would not be a trivial exercise. I think that's 
what all the flap is about.

- David

= = = Original message = = =

Right, I'm 59 and I spend alot of time wondering what the flap 
is 
about whether a print lasts 50 or 54 years or even 10 years. 
 One 
thing about digital...you can do it again.

Jerry in Houston

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 

wrote:
> 
> 
> > I'm 56, whether something fades,
> > or turns yellow, in 49 or 68 or 70 years is something I won't 
be
> > calling them on! (lol)
> 
> Perhaps if you were properly fixed you would...
> 
> Todd



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And then of course there's the whole collector issue. To quote the final
paragraph in an article on collecting B&W images in the latest issue of B&W
magazine: "Collectors [of digital prints] should know about longevity and
not be paying more than they should for something made recently. The only
concerns I have are print permanence."

- David

----Original Message----
From: GLewis4457 [mailto:glewis4457@...]
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:00 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Carbon-pigment inkjet print life
vs.Conventional VC/MG RC print life?

> Right, I'm 59 and I spend alot of time wondering what the flap is
> about whether a print lasts 50 or 54 years or even 10 years.  One
> thing about digital...you can do it again.

The "collector issue" is paramount if your are selling your prints. 
The fact of the matter is that many people buy prints not only for 
enjoyment but also as an investment or they seek to assemble a 
collection that they can pass on to their families or some 
organization, etc. In this case, 40-50 years may not cut it.

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "David J. Bookbinder" 
<david_bookbinder@s...> wrote:
> And then of course there's the whole collector issue. To quote the 
final
> paragraph in an article on collecting B&W images in the latest 
issue of B&W
> magazine: "Collectors [of digital prints] should know about 
longevity and
> not be paying more than they should for something made recently. 
The only

> concerns I have are print permanence."
> 
> - David
> 
> ----Original Message----
> From: GLewis4457 [mailto:glewis4457@a...]
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:00 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Carbon-pigment inkjet print life
> vs.Conventional VC/MG RC print life?
> 
> > Right, I'm 59 and I spend alot of time wondering what the flap is
> > about whether a print lasts 50 or 54 years or even 10 years.  One
> > thing about digital...you can do it again.

Howdy,

Excuse the sarcasm, but I don't think your prints will fade to white in
40-50 years...even if you are using inks manufactured by "Midnight Inks,
Inc."  If your prints are properly conserved, there is no reason why your
great great great grandchildren can't enjoy your work.

I have seen silver prints that were not washed and toned correctly develop
stains in less than 5 years...who says the photographer or gallery selling
these prints knows for sure how well the print has been processed and or
conserved?  Probably not!

Typically, most photographers do not own archival washers.  Typically they
use trays for washing prints.  Truth of the matter here is that tray washing
is not the most effective way to remove chemicals from silver print paper.
I would like to see what happens to a tray washed print after hanging on a
wall in direct light for a year...perma washed and selenium toned or not!

I don't think any serious collector hangs expensive works of art on walls
exposed to sunlight for 8 hours a day.  I mean traditional watercolor
painting, etching, lithography and silkscreen ALL fades when abused.

I have an original Epson inkjet print from 5 years ago printed on Arches
watercolor paper.  It is in a frame, not exposed to direct light...hasn't
faded a lick!  If it has, it is not very noticable.

The issue here is that it's about the IMAGE not the process.  Anyone
investing in one of your prints is buying a piece of history...no different
than buying one of the first albuman or platinum prints ever produced.

I think we need to put all this "archival stuff" in the right
perspective...IMHO, I think WE are our biggest enemies...not the collectors
or dealers.

Hope this make you feel better...Craig
------------------------------------------
http:www.craigsterling.com "Photography With a Sense of Place"

> From: "Chris Hargens" <ldmr@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2002 15:43:23 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Carbon-pigment inkjet print life vs.Conventional
> VC/MG  RC print life?
> 
> The "collector issue" is paramount if your are selling your prints.
> The fact of the matter is that many people buy prints not only for
> enjoyment but also as an investment or they seek to assemble a
> collection that they can pass on to their families or some
> organization, etc. In this case, 40-50 years may not cut it.
> 
> Chris Hargens
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "David J. Bookbinder"
> <david_bookbinder@s...> wrote:
>> And then of course there's the whole collector issue. To quote the
> final
>> paragraph in an article on collecting B&W images in the latest
> issue of B&W
>> magazine: "Collectors [of digital prints] should know about
> longevity and
>> not be paying more than they should for something made recently.
> The only
>> concerns I have are print permanence."
>> 
>> - David
>> 
>> ----Original Message----
>> From: GLewis4457 [mailto:glewis4457@a...]
>> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:00 AM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Carbon-pigment inkjet print life
>> vs.Conventional VC/MG RC print life?
>> 
>>> Right, I'm 59 and I spend alot of time wondering what the flap is
>>> about whether a print lasts 50 or 54 years or even 10 years.  One
>>> thing about digital...you can do it again.
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

What about the collectors who have paid $250,000+ for a large digital colour
print by Andreas Gursky? Et al