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[Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s

[Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s

2002-11-15 by Paul Roark

Don,

>>...I coated my first Eclipse 16x20 (17x22 paper)
>>with a wire-wound rod and polyurethane.
>>The process appears to scale-up to this level without
>> too much trouble.
>

>Why do you use a wire wrapped rod? Have you considered
>using a glass tube? These are commonly used to
>coat alternative process emulsions onto paper.

I've never done any coating with a glass tube.  So, I simply don't know
anything about them.  Is there a good description & picture of them on the
web somewhere?

>How do you clean your rod

The polyurethane ("PUR") I'm using is water-borne.  So, I just rinse the rod
under the faucet in my darkroom sink, which is where I do the coating.  For
the long 16x20 rod I first just put it into the bottom of the sink that I'd
filled to several inches with water. (I have one of those photo-washer type
stoppers that allows the sink to fill to a few inches before water can
drain.)  So, the rod sat in water for a while before I rinsed it more
thoroughly.

>... how do you introduce the urethane onto the rod?

I use a syringe to pull the PUR from the can and lay down a "bead" above the
print.  The rod is then just pulled through the bead and across the paper.

>> The main problem I had in setting up is that I have
>>no totally-flat counter top.

>... use a heavy piece of glass plate for coating.

Yes, I've ordered one.  The local glass shop can only go to 1/4 inch, so
I'll try that first.  If there are different types/qualities of glass that
could be flatter than others, the locals don't know about it.  (There are
limitations to living in a small town.)

I also will replace my crude plywood counter top cover with a
melamine-coated particle board.  (I lay a piece of solid plywood over my
darkroom wet sink.)

Also, with 8x10s I found that a couple pieces of paper under the print
seemed to help.  I had not done this with the 16x20.  I'll probably get a
roll of butcher paper for this and to help with clean-up (especially when I
try some solvent-based coatings).

>> ... the coating shows some signs of unevenness --

>Using a glass rod will eliminate this, an even
>bead of coating can be
>gotten by slightly lifting the rod before pushing forward.

With 8x10s I get totally even coating.  So, I'm hopeful that the wire-wound
rod can do it.  I would like to see how these glass tubes/rods work,
however.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s

2002-11-15 by Ernst Dinkla

Paul, you wrote:
> Yes, I've ordered one.  The local glass shop can only go to 1/4 inch, so
> I'll try that first.  If there are different types/qualities of glass that
> could be flatter than others, the locals don't know about it.  (There are
> limitations to living in a small town.)
>
> I also will replace my crude plywood counter top cover with a
> melamine-coated particle board.  (I lay a piece of solid plywood over my
> darkroom wet sink.)

All glass these days is float glass so its flatness is like the flatness of
the watersurface in your bathtube without anyone in it. It is unlikely that
minor defects in the surface will show, the paper will have more
irregularities. It is better to use a real thick glass plate and a softer
material below it to transfer the weight than using a thin glass plate on a
rigid board and filling up the flatness differences.

> >Using a glass rod will eliminate this, an even
> >bead of coating can be
> >gotten by slightly lifting the rod before pushing forward.
>
> With 8x10s I get totally even coating.  So, I'm hopeful that the
wire-wound
> rod can do it.  I would like to see how these glass tubes/rods work,
> however.

A glassrod will apply less coating than a wire-wound rod (at the same
diameter). I don't think there's much difference between the adhesion force
and the coating split for glass or steel with water soluble polyurethane.

Ernst

[Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s

2002-11-15 by Paul Roark

Mark,

>Paul Roark wrote:
>>... I coated my first Eclipse 16x20 (17x22 paper)
>>with a wire-wound rod and polyurethane....

>I have been coating with a Winsor Newton oil glaze called
>Wingel. It dries to a gloss, whereas my other
>product, Oleopasto, dries to more of a satin.
>I have not been going for that
>"uniform/perfection" technique that you and Robert have been;
>I've been going for a more hand done, funky, human look.
>I apply it to the print with a plastic 5" putty knife,
> spread it around somewhat evenly, then I dab the end
>of a 3" paintbrush into the varnish to add a texture.

>Probably not what most people would do, but it works for me.

I think that your more artistic approach could help make your work more
unique.  As an old silver printer, I'm at least initially inclined in that
direction.  There is a lot of room for creativity here.

>I've been applying it onto either ESFA sheets,

I'm trying to get some samples of roll ESFA.  The sheets are too thick for
my 3000.  However, the roll 225 thickness might work.

> Museo sheets

My printer seems to produce blotchy results with that paper.

> PhotoRag sheets

With the #15 rod, this paper seems to take 2 coats.  Also, it shows the
pizza wheel marks worse than the other papers with the 3000 (even after
removing most of them).

> I like the coating because it de-computerizes the
>print by adding a human
>touch, and it also deepens the WEAK BLACKS of the
>9600 with matteblack loaded.

I agree.  Even with the rod coating that has no obvious artistic value
besides darker blacks, the fact that the print is more than just a straight
inkjet output will, I think, help separate it from the masses.  It at least
has some "hand-made" content to it.

>The lack of black in the Ultras is obviously an issue
>for me, but therapy is taking off the sharp edges.
>(RIGHT? Answer me, Paul, dammit!)

Yes, let's hope there is a cure.  If you really like black and artistic
look, try Arches Hot Press.  It hit 2.51 with several coats.  (The "several
coats" ends my interest in it.)  With these uncoated papers hot pressing
them between coatings flattens the paper fibers.  They all, also, have a
grainy look that I don't want.  But, for artistic effect (and snob appeal --
very important in some markets) having the Arches embossed label might be a
plus.

>...There's just nothing like a dye black.

I'm afraid you're right.  However, getting over 2.0 helps.  The eye is much
less sensitive to the black end of the scale.  So, we get diminishing
marginal returns to our efforts there.

The Eclipse coats easily, but it is at the low end of the acceptable
spectrum on the black depth issue.  I've ordered a couple more rods to see
if I can get a one-coat workflow going with some of the papers that have a
better black but now take two coats.

However, some of the dyes are apparently getting over 3.0.  I don't happen
to like glossy papers, however, and the fading is then an issue.  So, I'm
going to continue to try to get the coating to a point where it's easy and
at least gets me a silver-print depth of black.

>But my point is: I'm bailing from the whole coating
>thing, just because of the huge amount of post-production
>that it adds. With Wingel, I apply either three or four coats,
>...

I'm going with a one-coat approach.  It dries so quickly that dust has not
been a problem.  The PUR is pulled straight from the can without dilution.
So, that can is open for only a moment.  The bead is laid down and the print
given a final shot of air to blow off any dust.  After coating the
micro-porous surface that is designed to dry ink "instantly" does it's thing
with the PUR also.  So, the coating is dry enough to handle very quickly.
It can be hung vertically almost immediately.  I sometimes dry it a bit more
with a hair drier, but it's not really necessary.  Most of the moisture has
been pulled into the paper/inkjet-receptor coating.

I think once the first coating has sealed the paper, the subsequent coatings
that are not quickly soaked up by the paper/receptor-coating are the
problematic ones with respect to dust.  That is a big reason a one-coat
workflow is, for me, the only thing I'm interested in.

>I had to make a decision that I'm a photographer, and not a
>printmaker. ...

But Mark, you and I are a printmakers.  Whether in the computer, darkroom,
or wherever, the post-image-acquisition work is what really separates us
from the snap-shot folks.  If some one is not interested in this part of the
process, why not just have a lab print your negatives?  I did this once with
color, and found it very unsatisfying.  I think much of the value-added and
fun is in the post-image-acquisition work.

That said, having a studio full of wet, coated prints with dust settling on
them is not appealing at all.  The process has to be easy enough to not be a
hassle.  The 16x20 I did yesterday took 10 minutes.  I can hang a lot of
prints vertically in my darkroom.

>...I had to come back to the fact that it's
>about THE IMAGE. Yes, the print should be compelling, but it's
>about the image.

I agree.  I do need to watch that I'm not getting totally lost in technical
nonsense.  It's the image that counts.  But, those darker blacks (especially
with no glass reflections in front of them) really make me happy.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s

2002-11-15 by Shire,Stanley

Paul:
I must have missed this, but where do you get the "PUR" coating
(varnish???)
Thanks
S.
 
Stan Shire
Associate Professor/Department Chair
Photographic Imaging
Community College of Philadelphia
Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E.
Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops

215 751-8320
sshire@...
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 11:04 AM
To: DigitalB&WPrint
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s
 
Don,

>>...I coated my first Eclipse 16x20 (17x22 paper)
>>with a wire-wound rod and polyurethane.
>>The process appears to scale-up to this level without
>> too much trouble.
>

>Why do you use a wire wrapped rod? Have you considered
>using a glass tube? These are commonly used to
>coat alternative process emulsions onto paper.

I've never done any coating with a glass tube.  So, I simply don't know
anything about them.  Is there a good description & picture of them on
the
web somewhere?

>How do you clean your rod

The polyurethane ("PUR") I'm using is water-borne.  So, I just rinse the
rod
under the faucet in my darkroom sink, which is where I do the coating.
For
the long 16x20 rod I first just put it into the bottom of the sink that
I'd
filled to several inches with water. (I have one of those photo-washer
type
stoppers that allows the sink to fill to a few inches before water can
drain.)  So, the rod sat in water for a while before I rinsed it more
thoroughly.

>... how do you introduce the urethane onto the rod?

I use a syringe to pull the PUR from the can and lay down a "bead" above
the
print.  The rod is then just pulled through the bead and across the
paper.

>> The main problem I had in setting up is that I have
>>no totally-flat counter top.

>... use a heavy piece of glass plate for coating.

Yes, I've ordered one.  The local glass shop can only go to 1/4 inch, so
I'll try that first.  If there are different types/qualities of glass
that
could be flatter than others, the locals don't know about it.  (There
are
limitations to living in a small town.)

I also will replace my crude plywood counter top cover with a
melamine-coated particle board.  (I lay a piece of solid plywood over my
darkroom wet sink.)

Also, with 8x10s I found that a couple pieces of paper under the print
seemed to help.  I had not done this with the 16x20.  I'll probably get
a
roll of butcher paper for this and to help with clean-up (especially
when I
try some solvent-based coatings).

>> ... the coating shows some signs of unevenness --

>Using a glass rod will eliminate this, an even
>bead of coating can be
>gotten by slightly lifting the rod before pushing forward.

With 8x10s I get totally even coating.  So, I'm hopeful that the
wire-wound
rod can do it.  I would like to see how these glass tubes/rods work,
however.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com






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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Coating -- 16x20s

2002-11-15 by Paul Roark

Ernst,

You wrote:

> All glass these days is float glass ...
> the paper will have more irregularities.

That was my thought also.  In fact, I think some of the defects I'm seeing
are likely from the paper.  That may be why a couple of sheets of paper
directly under the print seem (some uncertainty here) to result in smoother
coating.

>It is better to use a real thick glass plate and a softer
>material below it to transfer the weight than using
>a thin glass plate on a
>rigid board and filling up the flatness differences.

One post noted that some use a towel under the glass.  This might accomplish
what you are getting at above.  I would certainly think that a piece of
glass would be flatter than a relatively cheap melamine-coated particle
board.

Thanks for the info.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

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