Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 11/21/2002 5:53:51 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
mark@... writes:

> What actually *IS* an artist proof? Can it be sold, or must it be 
> "given away"? What is a printer's proof, and I guess it would not 
> be destroyed, thus it enters circulation?
> 
> -MT, http://marktucker.com/
> 
"artist proof"  hum? practice prints? General rule is to allow 10% of the 
edition as proofs, just away of being up front about how many prints there 
will be. Every buyer must assume there are a few unnumbered proofs out there 
if purchasing an editioned piece. I recently read they are much more valuable 
to a collector as they are more rare. Signed and lettered a/p! I use them as 
away to send a sample that may be close to my finals or a very slight blem. 
Too nice to throw away but nice enough for a sample. Can be sold or not, 
dealers choice. They are NOT GIFTS.
That's just what I use them for, to give a dealer a look at another image in 
addition to regular numbered prints I send. My intention is for the dealer to 
use them as samples, and get customers interested. something unmatted they 
can handle. Let them feel the paper I spend so much on.I usually don't charge 
for them if the dealer is someone I have solicited. Just last week a 
potential client asked for my price list as she had seen my sucky 2003 
calendar. She was going to use the calendar to show some higher ups, work she 
thought was appropriate for there space.
I quickly overnighted some unmatted full size prints marked as  a/p "proofs" 
for her to present, as I knew the calendar reproduction isn't even close to 
the real thing and not impressive at all. These "proofs" blew them away and 
they ordered 14 16x20's.
I keep quite a few prints around that are not quite perfect and I use them as 
samples. and proofs. The last one I sent out was just a slight tad too dark, 
(I thought.)
Others can see nothing wrong with the print.
I just found out a gallery in Cleveland sold one of these "proofs" for 
450.00. I sent them some stuff 18 months ago. The only reason I know, is the 
buyer came into a frame shop with my print to get it framed and the frame 
shop owner e-mailed me looking for a price list herself. Naturally I knew 
exactly where the print came from as I don't send stuff to OHIO everyday. So 
now I have a gallery selling my stuff without telling me, and I have to 
confront them about my un paid commission. Mark, worry more about the 
business practices of the dealer rather than your standards which will almost 
always be  higher than the dealer moving your work.
When I send an "artist proof" I clearly state that finals may be slightly 
different from proofs, and they could even be a different inkset.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Artists proofs are just the first pulling of a litho, silk screen etc.Has
nothing to do with quality. Some people collect them for whatever reason
they have like First Editions of a book It's a pretentious piece of jive
which might make someone happy for a while. Book First Editions do glom more
bread sometimes though. I have a/p's etc. and am not especially thrilled
except that they were given to me as gifts. I did have an art gallery for
about 5 years----a great way to have the government pay for champagne, wine
and a lot of other booze for shows. After it's over you quietly fold up your
tent and split. And you can end up with a pretty good art collection.

Anonymous........nah.....bgs
----- Original Message -----
From: <sdmey4@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


> In a message dated 11/21/2002 5:53:51 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> mark@... writes:
>
> > What actually *IS* an artist proof? Can it be sold, or must it be
> > "given away"? What is a printer's proof, and I guess it would not
> > be destroyed, thus it enters circulation?
> >
> > -MT, http://marktucker.com/
> >
> "artist proof"  hum? practice prints? General rule is to allow 10% of the
> edition as proofs, just away of being up front about how many prints there
> will be. Every buyer must assume there are a few unnumbered proofs out
there
> if purchasing an editioned piece. I recently read they are much more
valuable
> to a collector as they are more rare. Signed and lettered a/p! I use them
as
> away to send a sample that may be close to my finals or a very slight
blem.
> Too nice to throw away but nice enough for a sample. Can be sold or not,
> dealers choice. They are NOT GIFTS.
> That's just what I use them for, to give a dealer a look at another image
in
> addition to regular numbered prints I send. My intention is for the dealer
to
> use them as samples, and get customers interested. something unmatted they
> can handle. Let them feel the paper I spend so much on.I usually don't
charge
> for them if the dealer is someone I have solicited. Just last week a
> potential client asked for my price list as she had seen my sucky 2003
> calendar. She was going to use the calendar to show some higher ups, work
she
> thought was appropriate for there space.
> I quickly overnighted some unmatted full size prints marked as  a/p
"proofs"
> for her to present, as I knew the calendar reproduction isn't even close
to
> the real thing and not impressive at all. These "proofs" blew them away
and
> they ordered 14 16x20's.
> I keep quite a few prints around that are not quite perfect and I use them
as
> samples. and proofs. The last one I sent out was just a slight tad too
dark,
> (I thought.)
> Others can see nothing wrong with the print.
> I just found out a gallery in Cleveland sold one of these "proofs" for
> 450.00. I sent them some stuff 18 months ago. The only reason I know, is
the
> buyer came into a frame shop with my print to get it framed and the frame
> shop owner e-mailed me looking for a price list herself. Naturally I knew
> exactly where the print came from as I don't send stuff to OHIO everyday.
So
> now I have a gallery selling my stuff without telling me, and I have to
> confront them about my un paid commission. Mark, worry more about the
> business practices of the dealer rather than your standards which will
almost
> always be  higher than the dealer moving your work.
> When I send an "artist proof" I clearly state that finals may be slightly
> different from proofs, and they could even be a different inkset.
> Steve M.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>
>

when are you  (universal) going to do your homework and stop making up
your own rules and calling them "what is" ??? if you want to apply
printmaking rules, at least find out what they really are and then
decide what YOU will do, but stop making such arbitrary rules that do
not exist!!!  small wonder it is so hard for photographers   stop
talking here and do some real study which only a few of you have done,
it is SO obvious which ones   i guess i am near jumping ship   you yell
so much and only those (whom i greatly admire) bother to really find out
before they rave   jwp


 > Artists proofs are just the first pulling of a litho, silk screen
 > etc.Has nothing to do with quality. Some people collect them for
 > whatever reason they have like First Editions of a book It's a
 > pretentious piece of jive which might make someone happy for a while.
 >  Book First Editions do glom more bread sometimes though. I have
 > a/p's etc. and am not especially thrilled except that they were given
 >  to me as gifts. I did have an art gallery for about 5 years----a
 > great way to have the government pay for champagne, wine and a lot of
 >  other booze for shows. After it's over you quietly fold up your tent
 >  and split. And you can end up with a pretty good art collection.
 >
 >>>
 >> "artist proof"  hum? practice prints? General rule is to allow 10%
 >> of the edition as proofs, just away of being up front about how
 >> many prints

i have also owned a gallery, am a printmaker,etc   LEARN first   talk second

  if anyone wants to know what my ethical thoughts as a printmaker are,
ask me offgroup, i am gone 11/24-12/1 and 12/5-12/12  jwp/jno

oh yes   TRIAL PROOFS are not artist's 
proofs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

penland.walpen@... wrote:

> when are you  (universal) going to do your homework and stop making up
> your own rules and calling them "what is" ??? if you want to apply
> printmaking rules, at least find out what they really are and then
> decide what YOU will do, but stop making such arbitrary rules that do
> not exist!!!  small wonder it is so hard for photographers   stop
> talking here and do some real study which only a few of you have done,
> it is SO obvious which ones   i guess i am near jumping ship   you yell
> so much and only those (whom i greatly admire) bother to really find out
> before they rave   jwp
> 
> 
>  > Artists proofs are just the first pulling of a litho, silk screen
>  > etc.Has nothing to do with quality. Some people collect them for
>  > whatever reason they have like First Editions of a book It's a
>  > pretentious piece of jive which might make someone happy for a while.
>  >  Book First Editions do glom more bread sometimes though. I have
>  > a/p's etc. and am not especially thrilled except that they were given
>  >  to me as gifts. I did have an art gallery for about 5 years----a
>  > great way to have the government pay for champagne, wine and a lot of
>  >  other booze for shows. After it's over you quietly fold up your tent
>  >  and split. And you can end up with a pretty good art collection.
>  >
>  >>>
>  >> "artist proof"  hum? practice prints? General rule is to allow 10%
>  >> of the edition as proofs, just away of being up front about how
>  >> many prints
> 
> i have also owned a gallery, am a printmaker,etc   LEARN first   talk second
> 
>   if anyone wants to know what my ethical thoughts as a printmaker are,
> ask me offgroup, i am gone 11/24-12/1 and 12/5-12/12  jwp/jno
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and 
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> "flames."
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> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various 
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I for one have never said trial proofs were artist's proofs. The mistake I
made was not clarifying the situation as I had known it for years...that
being the first prints that satisfied the artist's standard for the work and
I still believe that. I am very happy to own A/P's and they are special and
personal to me. That's not an arbitrary rule and I don't yell. Most of them
have a wonderful personal message inscribed directly to me. There really are
some of us who know about this. This is not a rave. I'm not sure what this
has to do with photography anyway.

bgs

----- Original Message -----
From: <penland.walpen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


> oh yes   TRIAL PROOFS are not artist's
> proofs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> penland.walpen@... wrote:
> > when are you  (universal) going to do your homework and stop making up
> > your own rules and calling them "what is" ??? if you want to apply
> > printmaking rules, at least find out what they really are and then
> > decide what YOU will do, but stop making such arbitrary rules that do
> > not exist!!!  small wonder it is so hard for photographers   stop
> > talking here and do some real study which only a few of you have done,
> > it is SO obvious which ones   i guess i am near jumping ship   you yell
> > so much and only those (whom i greatly admire) bother to really find out
> > before they rave   jwp
> >
> >
> >  > Artists proofs are just the first pulling of a litho, silk screen
> >  > etc.Has nothing to do with quality. Some people collect them for
> >  > whatever reason they have like First Editions of a book It's a
> >  > pretentious piece of jive which might make someone happy for a while.
> >  >  Book First Editions do glom more bread sometimes though. I have
> >  > a/p's etc. and am not especially thrilled except that they were given
> >  >  to me as gifts. I did have an art gallery for about 5 years----a
> >  > great way to have the government pay for champagne, wine and a lot of
> >  >  other booze for shows. After it's over you quietly fold up your tent
> >  >  and split. And you can end up with a pretty good art collection.
> >  >
> >  >>>
> >  >> "artist proof"  hum? practice prints? General rule is to allow 10%
> >  >> of the edition as proofs, just away of being up front about how
> >  >> many prints
> >
> > i have also owned a gallery, am a printmaker,etc   LEARN first   talk
second
> >
> >   if anyone wants to know what my ethical thoughts as a printmaker are,
> > ask me offgroup, i am gone 11/24-12/1 and 12/5-12/12  jwp/jno
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
> > same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
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> > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> > resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>
>

Bingo!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Agee" <billagee@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


> >
> >
> >What actually *IS* an artist proof? Can it be sold, or must it be
> >"given away"? What is a printer's proof, and I guess it would not
> >be destroyed, thus it enters circulation?
> >
> >-MT, http://marktucker.com/
> >
>
>
> Mark,
>
> You just hit on one of the games that traditional printmakers have
> used for years. There are tons of artist's proofs out there that
> never get counted, but they do eventually get sold...and it is
> usually dealers that make money with them.
>
> Remember, these are the same folks who are insisting that
> photographers create limited editions...even though one of the main
> reasons for limited editions in traditional printmaking was  because
> the stone or plate wore down and the print quality degraded.  Other
> games these "pure" traditional printmakers play is when an image is
> successful, they quickly find a way to make another edition.  I even
> see painters now painting the same scene over and over when they have
> a hot one.
>
> No such practical problem of degrading plates exists in our digital
> medium.  Before digital, with care,  even negatives lasted for a long
> time....before they become scratched beyond usefulness.
>
> I think you argued for quite severe limitations on editions, but I am
> an open edition kind of photographer. It was good enough for Ansel
> Adams and Edward Weston and it's good enough for me.
>
> It is a gallery gimmick and limits the artist from making a decent
> living throughout their creative life. One of the big advantages of
> digital is that you can print them on demand and create different
> sizes easily.  Additionally as you become better and the technology
> gets better, the quality improves and the price should go up...so in
> one sense, there is a de facto limit...by the market place...to how
> large an edition will be.
>
> Bill Agee
> --
>
> bill agee studio
> capistrano beach, ca / laguna beach, ca
>
> http://www.redsilver.com
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
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>
>
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>

the bottom line is the integrity of the artist     and letting his/her
interested parties KNOW what that integrity is / whatever it is    one
must above all be honest to one's own concept and let the viewers and
buyers in on that concept   no art patrol exists nor really should it 
   jwp

Bingo to you too! You are truly honest and have a passion for your truths.
If I offended you I am sorry.....bgs
----- Original Message -----
From: <penland.walpen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 12:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


> the bottom line is the integrity of the artist     and letting his/her
> interested parties KNOW what that integrity is / whatever it is    one
> must above all be honest to one's own concept and let the viewers and
> buyers in on that concept   no art patrol exists nor really should it
>    jwp
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

no offense taken   i guess i just want to see us all do whatever we do
with the love for it we started with (i hope) and the integrity i keep
wanting us all to have in a world that seems to be walking so far away
from it   we are part of the hope here   we are the creative part    and
if all we do is fight over semantics, how can we feed the faltering
souls?   that said, i just love technical "stuff" but i think the
intuitive wins, hands down    so you guys keep on with both and i will
too    and i will exit stage left, or not  jwp

bgs wrote:

 > Bingo to you too! You are truly honest and have a passion for your
 > truths. If I offended you I am sorry.....bgs ----- Original Message
 > ----- From: <penland.walpen@...> To:
 > <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, November
 >  22, 2002 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and
 > where they go)
 >
 >
 >> the bottom line is the integrity of the artist     and letting
 >> his/her interested parties KNOW what that integrity is / whatever
 >> it is    one must above all be honest to one's own concept and let
 >> the viewers and buyers in on that concept   no art patrol exists
 >> nor really should it jwp
 >>
 >>
 >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
 >> Polls and
 > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
 >>
 >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
 >>
 >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
 >> wish to
 > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
 >  same page.
 >>
 >> Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with
 >>  your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have
 >> one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
 >> messages to
 > keep them short.
 >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
 >> header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
 >> attacks or
 > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
 >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search
 >> the message archives and the various
 > resources on the homepage.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
 >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
 >>
 >>
 >
 >
 > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT
 > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2677558.4057087.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1-
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 > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
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 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
 >
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 > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
 > this same page.
 >
 > Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with
 > your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
 >  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
 > to keep them short. - As the topic of a thread changes remember to
 > change the subject header. - Good manners are required at all time.
 > No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot; -
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 > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
 > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.

As you know, I know.....if it feels good.......have a good trip and holiday
my friend.
bgs
----- Original Message -----
From: <penland.walpen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


> no offense taken   i guess i just want to see us all do whatever we do
> with the love for it we started with (i hope) and the integrity i keep
> wanting us all to have in a world that seems to be walking so far away
> from it   we are part of the hope here   we are the creative part    and
> if all we do is fight over semantics, how can we feed the faltering
> souls?   that said, i just love technical "stuff" but i think the
> intuitive wins, hands down    so you guys keep on with both and i will
> too    and i will exit stage left, or not  jwp
>
> bgs wrote:
>  > Bingo to you too! You are truly honest and have a passion for your
>  > truths. If I offended you I am sorry.....bgs ----- Original Message
>  > ----- From: <penland.walpen@...> To:
>  > <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, November
>  >  22, 2002 12:55 AM Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and
>  > where they go)
>  >
>  >
>  >> the bottom line is the integrity of the artist     and letting
>  >> his/her interested parties KNOW what that integrity is / whatever
>  >> it is    one must above all be honest to one's own concept and let
>  >> the viewers and buyers in on that concept   no art patrol exists
>  >> nor really should it jwp
>  >>
>  >>
>  >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
>  >> Polls and
>  > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>  >>
>  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>  >>
>  >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
>  >> wish to
>  > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
>  >  same page.
>  >>
>  >> Please follow these basic guidelines: - Include your full name with
>  >>  your message. - Include the address of your website, if you have
>  >> one. - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
>  >> messages to
>  > keep them short.
>  >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
>  >> header. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal
>  >> attacks or
>  > &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
>  >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. - Before posting a question, search
>  >> the message archives and the various
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Wow. All I know is that i posted something, then I made some 
drinks, then some friends called me on the phone, so I met them 
there, then I came home, and I'm not sure what was actually 
written in the last few hours, but I guess People are chipping in, 
which is good. Maybe multiple cultures intermingling, which is 
even better, and then you realize what a big world it is, when you 
see all the language. All I can do, is Vote Yes, for our cumulative 
opinion. 

I will post my images sometime this weekend, after scanning.

I have also bought a website, with about a gig of storage space 
that I"m willing to pay for each month. I thought it would be an 
interesting experiment to provide server space storage for 
people on this list, who have scanned images, but who dont' 
have server storage space. 

I would not want to maintain all the HTML, but I'd be very 
interested in seeing people's images, if the maintenance didn't 
kill me.

My site is:

http://www.likeaduckinanoose.com

which, if you're american, and you live close to DC, you know the 
refererence. One of the more bizarre timesin American 
television.

Please give feedback if i can provide assistance.

MT, http://marktucker.com

This is part homework for most of us isn't it? I come here to learn, and 
sure, sometimes its reduced to chat, ultimately we each decide or own beliefs 
and truths.
and weed through the technical truths and outright bull :)
Why not post your thoughts on ethical printmaking? I think many would welcome 
your perspective. This "artist proof" rule would be of High interest.
Traditional printmaking rules and photography seem like a mismatch to me. You 
sound a little like the professor who's pissed at his students.
The galleries I work with handle new and emerging photographic work as well 
as established names, So what I have done is strickly at the advice and 
guidance of those dealers(being one of those new and emerging)So much for the 
learn first rule. I have come accross some very well respected photo dealers 
that didn't know a heck of alot about photography,as it turns out 
retrospectively. They do know how to deal with clients, and what sells.
"Seek the truth"
Steve M.



In a message dated 11/21/2002 9:12:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
penland.walpen@... writes:

> when are you  (universal) going to do your homework and stop making up
> your own rules and calling them "what is" ??? if you want to apply
> printmaking rules, at least find out what they really are and then
> decide what YOU will do, but stop making such arbitrary rules that do
> not exist!!!  small wonder it is so hard for photographers   stop
> talking here and do some real study which only a few of you have done,
> it is SO obvious which ones   i guess i am near jumping ship   you yell
> so much and only those (whom i greatly admire) bother to really find out
> before they rave   jwp
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have also owned a gallery, am a printmaker,etc   LEARN first   talk 
> second
> 
>  if anyone wants to know what my ethical thoughts as a printmaker are,
> ask me offgroup, i am gone 11/24-12/1 and 12/5-12/12  jwp/jno
> 
> 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----

From: "bgs" <bgs@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


> Artists proofs are just the first pulling of a litho, silk screen etc.Has
> nothing to do with quality. Some people collect them for whatever reason
> they have like First Editions of a book It's a pretentious piece of jive
> which might make someone happy for a while. Book First Editions do glom
more
> bread sometimes though. I have a/p's etc. and am not especially thrilled
> except that they were given to me as gifts. I did have an art gallery for
> about 5 years----a great way to have the government pay for champagne,
wine
> and a lot of other booze for shows. After it's over you quietly fold up
your
> tent and split. And you can end up with a pretty good art collection.

The "Bon a tirer" or Printer's proof is the first print that has the right
quality on the press. It is the one the other prints are compared to. The
printer will get that print. The artists proofs (5 should be the quantity)
are like the issue prints but will become part of the artists collection and
so are "Hors Commerce" like the Printers Proof.

Ernst

one more repy before i FALL into the bed
painter/printmaker/collegeprof for 8 years but FIRST art person/never
pissed with students   LOVE THEM/ no longer teaching/64unto65/ok?
sorry to hop in and say so much and i am leaving for a week and then
back and then a week  and back again  i promise (though i do not know if
anyone wants it) that if anyone wants to know my long and honest opinion on
this process (and i have been a firm defender of photography as art for
many years against some grain and a printmaker for many years and now I
AM TRYING TO WORK OUT THE DIGITAL ETHICS), i will try to give it
and , as i said to bgs, "or not"    it is just that all this is striking a
real chord in me   i have been a PURE printmaker (etcher, etc) for many
years and i have taught those students about HOW IT IS  and now this
digital stuff (which i do and love to do, is THROWING the rules, even
for a purist,  therefore i implore integrity

sdmey4@... wrote:

 > This is part homework for most of us isn't it? I come here to learn,
 > and sure, sometimes its reduced to chat, ultimately we each decide or
 >  own beliefs and truths. and weed through the technical truths and
 > outright bull :) Why not post your thoughts on ethical printmaking? I
 >  think many would welcome your perspective. This "artist proof" rule
 > would be of High interest. Traditional printmaking rules and
 > photography seem like a mismatch to me. You sound a little like the
 > professor who's pissed at his students. The galleries I work with
 > handle new and emerging photographic work as well as established
 > names, So what I have done is strickly at the advice and guidance of
 > those dealers(being one of those new and emerging)So much for the
 > learn first rule. I have come accross some very well respected photo
 > dealers that didn't know a heck of alot about photography,as it turns
 >  out retrospectively. They do know how to deal with clients, and what
 >  sells. "Seek the truth" Steve M.

>...i have been a PURE printmaker (etcher, etc) for many
> years 

Question for you: as a real printmaker what have the "archival" issues
been?  I assume you have had acid free rag papers, but do you have
inks that don't fade or color shift?  What have etchers, silk screen
printers, stone block printers and so on had to deal with on this
subject?

Regards, - cj

That,as I explained afterward is what I meant to say.......bgs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ernst Dinkla" <E.Dinkla@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 2:25 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)


>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bgs" <bgs@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:44 AM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Edition Quantities (and where they go)
>
>
> > Artists proofs are just the first pulling of a litho, silk screen
etc.Has
> > nothing to do with quality. Some people collect them for whatever reason
> > they have like First Editions of a book It's a pretentious piece of jive
> > which might make someone happy for a while. Book First Editions do glom
> more
> > bread sometimes though. I have a/p's etc. and am not especially thrilled
> > except that they were given to me as gifts. I did have an art gallery
for
> > about 5 years----a great way to have the government pay for champagne,
> wine
> > and a lot of other booze for shows. After it's over you quietly fold up
> your
> > tent and split. And you can end up with a pretty good art collection.
>
> The "Bon a tirer" or Printer's proof is the first print that has the right
> quality on the press. It is the one the other prints are compared to. The
> printer will get that print. The artists proofs (5 should be the quantity)
> are like the issue prints but will become part of the artists collection
and
> so are "Hors Commerce" like the Printers Proof.
>
> Ernst
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

actually i always bought 100% rag paper and Graphic Chemical inks and
felt safe   granted i taught myself printmaking, but i trusted stanley
hayter and peterdi and those experts    and assumed that galleries and
buyers KNEW that sun and tobacco-filled rooms would yellow their purchase

i must admit that i am puzzling some over this digital world, but it is
SUCH FUN   if you like it and can afford it, take it home   also i have
an old poorly washed and badly handled photo of my hand upon a drawing
that i did   it is in terrible shape but when i look, i have my memory
  etching was fun but, oh, so hard on the lungs

not good answers, but there you are  jno/jwp/etc

CLAYTON JONES wrote:

 >
 > Question for you: as a real printmaker what have the "archival"
 > issues been?  I assume you have had acid free rag papers, but do you
 > have inks that don't fade or color shift?  What have etchers, silk
 > screen printers, stone block printers and so on had to deal with on
 > this subject?
 >