Digital BW, The Print

Mark Tucker wrote:

> Part of why I'm voicing this publicly, Harvey, is that I wished
> someone had said all this publicly to ME. I think then, I would
> have had a bit more realistic expectations about inkjet printing. I
> come out of eighteen years of anal-retentive fiber B/W printing,
> so admittedly, I'm a pretty tough customer. But I also agree with
> what Martin said in an earlier post: if some of the limitations of
> these products are stated up front, in advance, then maybe I
> wouldn't feel kinda burned. But when you're dropping thousands
> at a time, it's hard to keep a good attitude when the prior product
> wasnt' up to snuff.
>
> I'm sorry and I apologize if my tone got a bit out of hand. But
> sometimes, I think a good stiff dose of honesty is good for a
> reality-check; it can also save in the pocketbook and in the
> frustration factor.

Dear Mark,
I think what you are writing makes perfect sense, and I agree with both you and your tone.  :- )

I'm feeling a little guilty now about my admonishments, cause I'm going to get slammed the next time I'm
having a bad day, and fly off the handle (which I fear I do on a regular basis).

Ah well.....

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

High Their Groupies,

Anyone heard of anything about the new Canon Digital Pro camera? 

The D30 is now down to $1500, so it can't be far off. I'd get one, but
the quality isn't quite there yet with that camera.

Jerry

Jay-Ohh

The D30 can often be found on Broadway Camera's web site for $1500, 
that is before they try and sell you the battery, charger and 
software "kit" and $250 shipping. If you've seen it elsewhere for 
this price, I'd like to know.

Have you seen output from a D30 in order to make the quality 
evaluation? If not I'll be happy to use a D30 shot as my offering in 
the Print Exchange we're both involved with right now.

hugs,

Shaun


> High Their Groupies,
> 
> Anyone heard of anything about the new Canon Digital Pro camera? 
> 
> The D30 is now down to $1500, so it can't be far off. I'd get one, 
but

> the quality isn't quite there yet with that camera.
> 
> Jerry

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Anyone heard of anything about the new Canon Digital Pro 
camera? 

Jerry, 

I am curious too. There was quite a bit of rumor/talk about it last 
month on Michael Reichmann's site:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/discus/index.html

Click on Digital Imaging and do a search. He has his ear to the 
tracks pretty well.

-Mark Tucker

PS. Sorry for that Subject line this morning. Our cable modem 
was down and I typed that on my laptop.

Mark,

You are right that Michael Reichmann of Luminous Landscape seems to 
keep his ear to the tracks and he mentions that there are rumors of 
an Epson B&W printer in his article about the B&W Revival:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/bw-revival.htm

Just think we would have Epson customer support behind us when we 
need help! <G> If that comes to pass it will certainly change the 
landscape of digital B&W!

He mentions and links to MIS and Piezo, too.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...> 
wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> > Anyone heard of anything about the new Canon Digital Pro 
> camera? 
> 
> Jerry, 
> 
> I am curious too. There was quite a bit of rumor/talk about it last 
> month on Michael Reichmann's site:
> 
> http://www.luminous-landscape.com/discus/index.html
> 
> Click on Digital Imaging and do a search. He has his ear to the 
> tracks pretty well.
> 
> -Mark Tucker
> 
> PS. Sorry for that Subject line this morning. Our cable modem 
> was down and I typed that on my laptop.

Shaun, I've seen that price at about half a dozen places in the current
issue of Shutterbug. Some places are $1600.

I had the Olympus E10, a 4.3 megapixel camera. It was phenomenal for
8x10 or smaller prints. Sharper than a scanned provia at 4000 DPI up to
8x10 inches.  At 12x18 inches the quality was not acceptable for black
and white landscapes.

I believe the D30 was supposed to be just a hair better than the E10 due
to a different type of pixel. It would really need to be a full 6 pixels
to go to a 12x18 print, I believe. That would be 18 megabytes, and at
the finest quality setting, and a little sharpening, I think that would
work.  If the new camera is at least 6 megapixels, I will probably sell
off my other cameras and just use that from now on. The others are great
cameras, but if I can get a REALLY sharp 12x18, I'll be satisfied.  I
have 8 canon lenses, so will be well equipped for the camera.

On the Olympus, if you upsized the 10.7 megabyte image in photoshop to
25 megabytes, the files were still pretty good. In fact for close up
pictures, it was extremely sharp, and the large prints were beautiful.
But a landscape just couldn't quite make it, as there just isn't enough
detail in that small area to get sharpness at infinity. At the wide
angle position, there was too much distortion, also, and it didn't have
interchangeable lenses, which I just gotta have, so I sold the camera
and await the new Canon.

Yes, if you have a nice shot, by all means lets see it in your print exchange.

I sent my 34 prints to you today. The couple extra ones you can have for
yourself. The print is entitled "Distant Shores".  I'm attaching it now
so you can see it, and put it up on your site with the others.

Jerry 

http://www.westernechoes.com

> Have you seen output from a D30 in order to make the quality
> evaluation? If not I'll be happy to use a D30 shot as my offering in
> the Print Exchange we're both involved with right now.

I've seen about half a dozen 8x10 prints, that were certainly of the
quality I want, but I don't know how good they would be at a larger size.

>

With regards to enlargements of digitally captured images you need to take
into account noise as well as the megapixel rating.  It is critical to shoot
in a "noiseless" manner...either Tiff or RAW (smaller file size).  I'm not
sure whether the canon cameras have a raw mode...but RAW mode captured
images on my D1, coupled with geniune fractals and some careful sharpening
yield successful BW enlargements twice the size of images captured in jpeg
1:4 mode on the same camera.

Robert

On 9/10/01 6:14 PM, "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Shaun, I've seen that price at about half a dozen places in the current
> issue of Shutterbug. Some places are $1600.
> 
> I had the Olympus E10, a 4.3 megapixel camera. It was phenomenal for
> 8x10 or smaller prints. Sharper than a scanned provia at 4000 DPI up to
> 8x10 inches.  At 12x18 inches the quality was not acceptable for black
> and white landscapes.
> 
> I believe the D30 was supposed to be just a hair better than the E10 due
> to a different type of pixel. It would really need to be a full 6 pixels
> to go to a 12x18 print, I believe. That would be 18 megabytes, and at
> the finest quality setting, and a little sharpening, I think that would
> work.  If the new camera is at least 6 megapixels, I will probably sell
> off my other cameras and just use that from now on. The others are great
> cameras, but if I can get a REALLY sharp 12x18, I'll be satisfied.  I
> have 8 canon lenses, so will be well equipped for the camera.
> 
> On the Olympus, if you upsized the 10.7 megabyte image in photoshop to
> 25 megabytes, the files were still pretty good. In fact for close up
> pictures, it was extremely sharp, and the large prints were beautiful.
> But a landscape just couldn't quite make it, as there just isn't enough
> detail in that small area to get sharpness at infinity. At the wide
> angle position, there was too much distortion, also, and it didn't have
> interchangeable lenses, which I just gotta have, so I sold the camera
> and await the new Canon.
> 
> Yes, if you have a nice shot, by all means lets see it in your print exchange.
> 
> I sent my 34 prints to you today. The couple extra ones you can have for
> yourself. The print is entitled "Distant Shores".  I'm attaching it now
> so you can see it, and put it up on your site with the others.
> 
> Jerry 
> 
> http://www.westernechoes.com
> 
>> Have you seen output from a D30 in order to make the quality
>> evaluation? If not I'll be happy to use a D30 shot as my offering in
>> the Print Exchange we're both involved with right now.
> 
> I've seen about half a dozen 8x10 prints, that were certainly of the
> quality I want, but I don't know how good they would be at a larger size.
> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Robert,

My wife's Canon G1 has raw mode and as I recall so does the D30 and 
JPEG too. I'm pretty impressed with what the G1 will do for a little 
point and shoot. Love that swing out display.

If I can ever pry it out of my wife's hands I will try some B&W  with 
it.

I'm waiting for the 4 oz., 1 Gigapixel 4x5 digital film holder with 
the tetrabyte memory module to drop down to $500 myself. ;-)

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> With regards to enlargements of digitally captured images you need 
to take
> into account noise as well as the megapixel rating.  It is critical 
to shoot
> in a "noiseless" manner...either Tiff or RAW (smaller file size).  
I'm not
> sure whether the canon cameras have a raw mode...but RAW mode 
captured
> images on my D1, coupled with geniune fractals and some careful 
sharpening
> yield successful BW enlargements twice the size of images captured 
in jpeg
> 1:4 mode on the same camera.
> 
> Robert
> 
(snip)

Jerry Olson wrote:
> Shaun, I've seen that price at about half a dozen places in the 
current
> issue of Shutterbug. Some places are $1600.
> 

I went to B&H, Adorama and CameraWorld and couldn't find it at less 
than $2600 - at $1500 I'll buy two :-)




> On the Olympus, if you upsized the 10.7 megabyte image in 
photoshop to
> 25 megabytes, the files were still pretty good. In fact for close 
up
> pictures, it was extremely sharp, and the large prints were 
beautiful.


I definitely use Genuine Fractals rather than Photoshop if I'm going 
to that size 


> But a landscape just couldn't quite make it, as there just isn't 
enough
> detail in that small area to get sharpness at infinity. At the wide


You're right that it's not a landscape camera


> I sent my 34 prints to you today. The couple extra ones you can 
have for
> yourself. The print is entitled "Distant Shores".  I'm attaching 
it now
> so you can see it, and put it up on your site with the others.

You're beautiful....thanks


Shaun

Robert - 

the D30 does indeed have a RAW mode and it is critical that this is 
used if the image is going to be manipulated significantly, 
including upsizing. I use Genuine Fractals to increase resolution 
and find it far superior to Photoshop upsizing when larger images 
are required. I have rezzed up to 13X19 very successfully on many 
occasions.

Shaun



Robert Morrison <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> With regards to enlargements of digitally captured images you need 
to take
> into account noise as well as the megapixel rating.  It is 
critical to shoot
> in a "noiseless" manner...either Tiff or RAW (smaller file size).  
I'm not
> sure whether the canon cameras have a raw mode...but RAW mode 
captured
> images on my D1, coupled with geniune fractals and some careful 
sharpening
> yield successful BW enlargements twice the size of images captured 
in jpeg
> 1:4 mode on the same camera.
>

Martin,  

It may be a long wait...I'm not sure that Nikon and Canon have ever heard of
a 4x5 camera...besides why would anyone want to shoot with something that
clunky when you could shoot with a light weight (I must not be talking about
my D1 here), ergonomically designed camera with interchangable lens.  Seems
like more than about 32meg would just be a waste even for the "big-minded"
of us...but we'll see.

Robert

PS  Yes, I know you were kidding!  Don't you need to be at home
depot...reporting for your shift?


 On 9/10/01 11:20 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> My wife's Canon G1 has raw mode and as I recall so does the D30 and
> JPEG too. I'm pretty impressed with what the G1 will do for a little
> point and shoot. Love that swing out display.
> 
> If I can ever pry it out of my wife's hands I will try some B&W  with
> it.
> 
> I'm waiting for the 4 oz., 1 Gigapixel 4x5 digital film holder with
> the tetrabyte memory module to drop down to $500 myself. ;-)
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Robert Morrison
> <rmorrison@p...> wrote:
>> With regards to enlargements of digitally captured images you need
> to take
>> into account noise as well as the megapixel rating.  It is critical
> to shoot
>> in a "noiseless" manner...either Tiff or RAW (smaller file size).
> I'm not
>> sure whether the canon cameras have a raw mode...but RAW mode
> captured
>> images on my D1, coupled with geniune fractals and some careful
> sharpening
>> yield successful BW enlargements twice the size of images captured
> in jpeg
>> 1:4 mode on the same camera.
>> 
>> Robert
>> 
> (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

hi Martin -

I have a G1 and it's an amazing camera. The images I get from it are far
better than I expected.

You can add me to your list for that 4x5 thingy. But I'm also waiting
for is the Canon EOS-system full frame digital I can use my EOS glass
with. Say, 12 or 16 megapixels. So if that comes out first, I might use
my $500 for that, instead.

Richard Wolfson

  From: Martin Wesley [mailto:mwesley250@...]

  I'm pretty impressed with what the G1 will do for a little
  point and shoot. Love that swing out display.

  [snip]

  I'm waiting for the 4 oz., 1 Gigapixel 4x5 digital film holder with
the tetrabyte memory module to drop down to $500 myself. ;-)

  Martin


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]