Digital BW, The Print

David, 
First I would like to correct an impression you have that is, in my honest opinion, incorrect.  You say you are willing to dedicate your printer to BW printing. 

PiezoBW inks deliver very "black" blacks.  How black do you need?  If you are considering devoting a $3,000+ printer to quad tone printing, I suggest you get sample prints and a black swatch from each ink seller or "manufacturer" and judge for yourself.  

My images usually involve significant black areas on the print (about 30% of total image).  Solid black.  I use the PiezoBW inkset and get blacks that look like the black of a well used fireplace chimney...carbon black.  Deep solid black. Blacker than night.  Black as soot...black as the ace of spades.   

So I believe if you are judging ink alone (and not paper/coating/ink combinations) you should not state that "Cones inks do not give a good rich black" when in fact they do. Of course you have to know how to use them, the right papers, and the right profiles.  That comes with time but is in fact also easy using the Conetech profiles supplied with the software.

Steadman

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: daviddstock@... 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 12:52 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] metamerism confusion


  I've been reviewing all the posts on the various Epson groups 
  about metamerism, because I have to make a final decision 
  about what inkset to use in my 7000 for printing a portfolio of 
  black and white photographs. I have a pretty good sense of what 
  the discussion has been, but still have a few questions.

  Like many people, I would absolutely love to be able to print 
  black and white images using color inks. If this is impractical 
  because of metamerism, I am willing to dedicate my 7000 to 
  quadtones, at least for now.

  As I understand it, all the pigmented ink sets have some 
  metamerism. Epson's pigs are the worst, Generations is pretty 
  bad, and Cone's color piezos have little metamerism in most 
  situations. However, Cone's inks do not give a good rich black.

  Questions:

  1. Is it feasible to use Generations black with Cone's color inkset 
  to get better blacks? (I have seen reports of people mixing 
  Generations black with MIS quad inks and Cone quad inks, 
  which makes me optimistic. On the other hand, I have seen 
  reports that adding any Generations black ink causes noticeable 
  metamerism to appear.)

  2. Is there any other way to print grayscale images using 
  long-lasting color inks without getting strong metamerism or 
  weak blacks?

  3.  Why is metamerism not a problem with quadtone inksets that 
  have pigments in them? (Especially when folks use Generations 
  black in the mix...)

  Thanks in advance for any help.

  --David Stock


        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ditto...and if you want them really black...coat the final prints.

Robert

On 9/10/01 6:02 PM, "Steadman Uhlich" <steadmanuhlich@...> wrote:

> David, 
> First I would like to correct an impression you have that is, in my honest
> opinion, incorrect.  You say you are willing to dedicate your printer to BW
> printing. 
> 
> PiezoBW inks deliver very "black" blacks.  How black do you need?  If you are
> considering devoting a $3,000+ printer to quad tone printing, I suggest you
> get sample prints and a black swatch from each ink seller or "manufacturer"
> and judge for yourself.
> 
> My images usually involve significant black areas on the print (about 30% of
> total image).  Solid black.  I use the PiezoBW inkset and get blacks that look
> like the black of a well used fireplace chimney...carbon black.  Deep solid
> black. Blacker than night.  Black as soot...black as the ace of spades.
> 
> So I believe if you are judging ink alone (and not paper/coating/ink
> combinations) you should not state that "Cones inks do not give a good rich
> black" when in fact they do. Of course you have to know how to use them, the
> right papers, and the right profiles.  That comes with time but is in fact
> also easy using the Conetech profiles supplied with the software.
> 
> Steadman
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: daviddstock@...
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 12:52 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] metamerism confusion
> 
> 
> I've been reviewing all the posts on the various Epson groups
> about metamerism, because I have to make a final decision
> about what inkset to use in my 7000 for printing a portfolio of
> black and white photographs. I have a pretty good sense of what
> the discussion has been, but still have a few questions.
> 
> Like many people, I would absolutely love to be able to print
> black and white images using color inks. If this is impractical
> because of metamerism, I am willing to dedicate my 7000 to
> quadtones, at least for now.
> 
> As I understand it, all the pigmented ink sets have some
> metamerism. Epson's pigs are the worst, Generations is pretty
> bad, and Cone's color piezos have little metamerism in most
> situations. However, Cone's inks do not give a good rich black.
> 
> Questions:
> 
> 1. Is it feasible to use Generations black with Cone's color inkset
> to get better blacks? (I have seen reports of people mixing
> Generations black with MIS quad inks and Cone quad inks,
> which makes me optimistic. On the other hand, I have seen
> reports that adding any Generations black ink causes noticeable
> metamerism to appear.)
> 
> 2. Is there any other way to print grayscale images using
> long-lasting color inks without getting strong metamerism or
> weak blacks?
> 
> 3.  Why is metamerism not a problem with quadtone inksets that
> have pigments in them? (Especially when folks use Generations
> black in the mix...)
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
> --David Stock
> 
> 
>       Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>             ADVERTISEMENT
>            
>      
>      
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:

 I believe if you are judging ink alone (and not paper/coating/ink 
combinations) you should not state that "Cones inks do not give 
a good rich black" when in fact they do. Of course you have to 
know how to use them, the right papers, and the right profiles.  
That comes with time but is in fact also easy using the Conetech 
profiles supplied with the software.
> 
> Steadman


Well, Steadman, perhaps you have a point. Maybe I have been 
too quick to judge or too limited in my work methods. 

However, I didn't make the statement casually. In fact, I have 
plenty of samples of Peizo black ink. I was one of the first to try 
the Piezo quadtone system when it was originally released for 
the 3000. I've used it on many papers, coated and uncoated, 
including several recommended by inkjetmall. I've printed 
through the Epson driver, which did give slightly more emphasis 
to the blacks. I used the Conetech presets. I experimented 
widely with the manual settings. So did friends, and numerous 
knowledgeable people from the various Epson newsgroups. 
There have been continuous complaints about the blacks 
starting back then, and continuing until today. I myself stopped 
using the inks because of the blacks and banding problems. On 
the other hand, some people love Peizo quads just as they are. 

Inkjetmall's own samples on Somerset Velvet have nice grays, 
but do not have what I personally consider to be a rich black, 
even when compared to what other archival inks can do on this 
paper. If their own samples can't convince me, I really have to 
wonder. 

But, it sounds like you've really optimized your work with piezo 
quads and are getting good results. Would you consider 
sending me a sample on a smooth matte paper (coated or 
uncoated)? I'd be happy to pay you for  your time and materials.  
If you are willing, please contact me off-list.

--David

On 9/10/01 8:53 PM, "daviddstock@..." <daviddstock@...>
wrote:

> Inkjetmall's own samples on Somerset Velvet have nice grays,
> but do not have what I personally consider to be a rich black,
> even when compared to what other archival inks can do on this
> paper. If their own samples can't convince me, I really have to
> wonder.

Somerset Velvet is an uncoated paper intended for Iris printing, not inkjet
printing...blacks are very poor compared to the Hahnemulle papers (such as
Orwell or Wells River in Inkjetmall nomenclature).  When Antonis built his
paper database containing dmaxs he didn't even test sommerset velvet because
the blacks are so poor.  The quality of blacks are totally the consequence
of paper coating/ink interactions.  If you haven't looked at Antonis's paper
database yet you should...its posted as a part of this discussion group.
The quickest measure of a paper/piezo black potential is the dmax.  If you
think the blacks on a piezo print with orwell are weak...I would be quite
surprised.  Remember, the blacks on any matte paper are going to seem weak
compared to a semi-gloss or gloss paper.  If your intent in using a
pigmented ink system is to make archival prints, the semi-gloss and gloss
papers are not archival with dyes or pigments. If you want that effect with
piezo you simply need to coat the final print made on a matte fine art
paper.  These prints are archival.  Once the print is coated the dmax of
these prints are equal to the best of the gloss papers.  For more
information on coatings see the Varnishes or Alternative Coatings threads in
this list and in the piezography3000 list.

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

David,

I agree with Steadman on this. Your choice of paper will have more 
impact on your Dmax that your choice of black inks. If differences 
exist between the pigment blacks I don't think they are significant.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Steadman Uhlich" 
<steadmanuhlich@k...> wrote:
> David, 
> First I would like to correct an impression you have that is, in my 
honest opinion, incorrect.  You say you are willing to dedicate your 
printer to BW printing. 
> 
> PiezoBW inks deliver very "black" blacks.  How black do you need?  
If you are considering devoting a $3,000+ printer to quad tone 
printing, I suggest you get sample prints and a black swatch from 
each ink seller or "manufacturer" and judge for yourself.  
> 
> My images usually involve significant black areas on the print 
(about 30% of total image).  Solid black.  I use the PiezoBW inkset 
and get blacks that look like the black of a well used fireplace 
chimney...carbon black.  Deep solid black. Blacker than night.  Black 
as soot...black as the ace of spades.   
> 
> So I believe if you are judging ink alone (and not 
paper/coating/ink combinations) you should not state that "Cones inks 
do not give a good rich black" when in fact they do. Of course you 
have to know how to use them, the right papers, and the right 
profiles.  That comes with time but is in fact also easy using the 
Conetech profiles supplied with the software.
> 
> Steadman
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: daviddstock@e... 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y... 
>   Sent: Monday, September 10, 2001 12:52 PM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] metamerism confusion
> 
> 
>   I've been reviewing all the posts on the various Epson groups 
>   about metamerism, because I have to make a final decision 
>   about what inkset to use in my 7000 for printing a portfolio of 
>   black and white photographs. I have a pretty good sense of what 
>   the discussion has been, but still have a few questions.
> 
>   Like many people, I would absolutely love to be able to print 
>   black and white images using color inks. If this is impractical 
>   because of metamerism, I am willing to dedicate my 7000 to 
>   quadtones, at least for now.
> 
>   As I understand it, all the pigmented ink sets have some 
>   metamerism. Epson's pigs are the worst, Generations is pretty 
>   bad, and Cone's color piezos have little metamerism in most 
>   situations. However, Cone's inks do not give a good rich black.
> 
>   Questions:
> 
>   1. Is it feasible to use Generations black with Cone's color 
inkset 
>   to get better blacks? (I have seen reports of people mixing 
>   Generations black with MIS quad inks and Cone quad inks, 
>   which makes me optimistic. On the other hand, I have seen 
>   reports that adding any Generations black ink causes noticeable 
>   metamerism to appear.)
> 
>   2. Is there any other way to print grayscale images using 
>   long-lasting color inks without getting strong metamerism or 
>   weak blacks?
> 
>   3.  Why is metamerism not a problem with quadtone inksets that 
>   have pigments in them? (Especially when folks use Generations 
>   black in the mix...)
> 
>   Thanks in advance for any help.
> 
>   --David Stock
> 
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor 
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>              
>        
>        
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of 
Service. 

> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]