Re: [Digital BW] Digest Number 1174
2002-12-09 by gary
The site/ Way Kuul! On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 07:05 PM, DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote: > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting > this same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various resources on the homepage. > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > - > > There are 25 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. RE: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> > 2. Re: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > From: Truman Prevatt <tprevatt@...> > 3. RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > 4. RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > 5. check out - MIS inks and Mulberry Paper > From: "frankg_photo <frank@...>" > <frank@...> > 6. Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: Phil Morse <pmorse@...> > 7. RE: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> > 8. RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > 9. 1160 vs. 1280 for quad/hex tone > From: "Bob_Michaels <Bob@...>" > <Bob@...> > 10. UltraChrome Out-Gassing Concerns > From: "Miguel Angel Aleman <alemanma@...>" > <alemanma@...> > 11. Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: Carl Schofield <scho@...> > 12. test > From: "John Vitollo <johnnyv@...>" > <johnnyv@...> > 13. Re: Re: Chemistry refresher course > From: "Bob Frost" <bobfrost@...> > 14. Re: Ah, the digital argument . . . > From: "Stephen A. Tucker <stephentucker@...>" > <stephentucker@...> > 15. Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > From: "Clayton Jones <cj@...>" <cj@...> > 16. Re: New Lepp Profiles for 2200 > From: "sanfo2003 <SandyCornelius@...>" > <SandyCornelius@...> > 17. RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > 18. RE: Re: New Lepp Profiles for 2200 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > 19. Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Mark Tucker <mark@...>" > <mark@...> > 20. RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > 21. Re: 1160 vs. 1280 for quad/hex tone > From: "Mark Hahn <markhahn2000@...>" > <markhahn2000@...> > 22. Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > From: "Tom Andrews <tandrews@...>" > <tandrews@...> > 23. RE: check out - MIS inks and Mulberry Paper > From: "Murray Zaharia" <zaharia@...> > 24. Re: Ah, the digital argument... > From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...> > 25. Re: Ah, the digital argument... > From: "Clayton Jones <cj@...>" <cj@...> > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:49:33 -0500 > From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> > Subject: RE: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > > >> What makes Dylan great is obviously not his voice, but his >> writing and what >> he says. > > What is it he writes and says? I can't make out half the words of any > of > his songs... > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 10:49:21 -0500 > From: Truman Prevatt <tprevatt@...> > Subject: Re: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > > .............the answer my firend is blowing in the wind......... > > Just have to turn you head a little to the left or right to tune it > in:-). > > Truman > > Austin Franklin wrote: > >>> What makes Dylan great is obviously not his voice, but his >>> writing and what >>> he says. >>> >>> >> >> What is it he writes and says? I can't make out half the words of >> any of >> his songs... >> >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:07:30 -0500 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > Subject: RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Paul: > I did not roll the screen door spring/dowel combo, but rather dragged > it > (letting its own weight be the major downward force). No rolling. > Thanks to Carl for his link to the wire size charts. Now we can really > talk knowledgeably about our wet film thicknesses. > > The expansion in print size (1/16" over 11") after coating and drying > was interesting. > > I will try the "padding" under the print. > > In an effort to minimize handling while wet, etc. I was considering a > layer of plastic wrap (wrapping the glass and "padding") under the > print. My thought is that I could leave the wet print taped in place, > minimize handling and still have easy cleanup. Does this seem > reasonable? > > Let's hope that Epson does not get this information or screen door > springs will be given an Epson part number, cost 49.95 and be > unavailable due to a screen door strike. > S. > > Stan Shire > Associate Professor/Department Chair > Photographic Imaging > Community College of Philadelphia > Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. > Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops > > 215 751-8320 > sshire@... > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:18 AM > To: DigitalB&WPrint > Subject: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Stan, > > You wrote: > >> ... screen door parts ... looks like a Mayer Rod .. >> the spring. (#4 D&G Spring, Zinc, about 15.25" in length) $2.42. > > I like it. Now we'll have to see if they have different sizes of > springs. > >> .0488. This is larger than Paul's #14 Mayer (I think >> .035) > > I think the #15 that I started with has .015" wire on it. I thought > that is > where they got those numbers from. > > I find myself using the #30 most now, and I think EAM absorbs so much > it > could go to a #45 -- so we may be close here. > >> A 1/4" dowel fits nicely inside the spring ... > > Does it roll when you drag it across the surface? I was told not to > roll > the bar, but I'm not sure what effect that would have (aside from > leaving a > lot more of the coating on the rod/spring. > > Keep experimenting. > > I think the toughest part may be scaling the process up to large > prints. > I'm not getting the evenness I'd like to on my 16x20s, and Mark Tucker > has > resorted to spraying for larger prints -- which is more work. > > I'm not sure the hard glass surface is the best. As the print and rod > length get larger, I think maintaining a precise flatness becomes much > more > difficult. I have found that a couple pieces of paper under an 8x10 > helps. > I think more of a cushion under a larger print may be needed. In the > real > world use of these rods, a flexible web is dragged across the rod. > This > is > flexible enough that the surface being coated conforms to the rod. I > notice > that Diversified Enterprises uses 1/2 inch glass on its platform, and > they > have a cushion that is also used. > > So, I think we may need to experiment with different surfaces. > > For cleanup, I also think coated butcher paper makes a lot of sense. > > So, my next experiments may include a piece of cloth taped to the > glass, > then some butcher paper over that. I've tried some felt, and that was > too > thick. The resulting coating had lines in it. > > So, just keep experimenting. The results look good enough to warrant > the > effort. > > Paul > http://www.PaulRoark.com > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:09:23 -0500 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > Subject: RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Carl: > Thanks for the chart. As soon as I locate a catalog for screen door > springs we can perhaps use it to get some equivalency chart between the > mayer rods and the springs. > > Stan Shire > Associate Professor/Department Chair > Photographic Imaging > Community College of Philadelphia > Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. > Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops > > 215 751-8320 > sshire@... > -----Original Message----- > From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 9:18 AM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > I think most screen door springs are made of 16 gauge wire (0.05 inch > diameter) which would equate to a #50 mayer rod. > http://www.gardco.com/rodschart.html > > On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 12:17 AM, Paul Roark wrote: > >> Stan, >> >> You wrote: >> >>> ... screen door parts ... looks like a Mayer Rod .. >>> the spring. (#4 D&G Spring, Zinc, about 15.25" in length) $2.42. >> >> I like it. Now we'll have to see if they have different sizes of >> springs. >> >>> .0488. This is larger than Paul's #14 Mayer (I think >>> .035) >> >> I think the #15 that I started with has .015" wire on it. I thought >> that is >> where they got those numbers from. >> >> I find myself using the #30 most now, and I think EAM absorbs so much >> it >> could go to a #45 -- so we may be close here. >> >>> A 1/4" dowel fits nicely inside the spring ... >> >> Does it roll when you drag it across the surface? I was told not to >> roll >> the bar, but I'm not sure what effect that would have (aside from >> leaving a >> lot more of the coating on the rod/spring. >> >> Keep experimenting. >> >> I think the toughest part may be scaling the process up to large >> prints. >> I'm not getting the evenness I'd like to on my 16x20s, and Mark Tucker > >> has >> resorted to spraying for larger prints -- which is more work. >> >> I'm not sure the hard glass surface is the best. As the print and rod >> length get larger, I think maintaining a precise flatness becomes much > >> more >> difficult. I have found that a couple pieces of paper under an 8x10 >> helps. >> I think more of a cushion under a larger print may be needed. In the >> real >> world use of these rods, a flexible web is dragged across the rod. >> This is >> flexible enough that the surface being coated conforms to the rod. I >> notice >> that Diversified Enterprises uses 1/2 inch glass on its platform, and >> they >> have a cushion that is also used. >> >> So, I think we may need to experiment with different surfaces. >> >> For cleanup, I also think coated butcher paper makes a lot of sense. >> >> So, my next experiments may include a piece of cloth taped to the >> glass, >> then some butcher paper over that. I've tried some felt, and that was >> too >> thick. The resulting coating had lines in it. >> >> So, just keep experimenting. The results look good enough to warrant >> the >> effort. >> >> Paul >> http://www.PaulRoark.com >> >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >> this same page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - Include your full name with your message. >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one. >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep them short. >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >> header. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >> various resources on the homepage. >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 16:52:53 -0000 > From: "frankg_photo <frank@...>" <frank@...> > Subject: check out - MIS inks and Mulberry Paper > > It takes some navigating but check out this site by the Starn Bros. > (fine artists) they have some prints (leaves, botanicals etc.) that > are titled/credited with MIS inks and Myulberry paper - whatever the > heck that is ? Probably some kind of hand-made and hand-coated ? > http://www.starnstudio.com/page2.htm > > enjoy, > Frank > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:53:11 -0500 > From: Phil Morse <pmorse@...> > Subject: Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Stan, > > Go to http://www.pbase.com/image/8549120 for a lead on the springs. > These are from a very old McMasters but will probably be the OK. > > Phil Morse > > "Shire,Stanley" wrote: >> >> Carl: >> Thanks for the chart. As soon as I locate a catalog for screen door >> springs we can perhaps use it to get some equivalency chart between >> the >> mayer rods and the springs. >> >> Stan Shire >> Associate Professor/Department Chair >> Photographic Imaging >> Community College of Philadelphia >> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. >> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops >> > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 12:02:03 -0500 > From: "Austin Franklin" <darkroom@...> > Subject: RE: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > > There was a movie where this guy was heralded as being a genius, but > was > really sort of a not really with it dolt...he would say things like > "plants > need water", really meaning that the plants were dry, and needed to be > watered...but others took it as some deep, philosophical statement... > What > was that movie? > > Austin > > >> .............the answer my friend is blowing in the wind......... >> >> Just have to turn you head a little to the left or right to tune it >> in:-). >> >> Truman >> >> Austin Franklin wrote: >> >>>> What makes Dylan great is obviously not his voice, but his >>>> writing and what >>>> he says. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> What is it he writes and says? I can't make out half the words of >>> any of >>> his songs... > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 12:15:17 -0500 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > Subject: RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Phil: > Thanks for the spring ref. Looks like the stainless steel would be the > answer. I'm on it. More tests with various wire diameters to come. > > Stan Shire > Associate Professor/Department Chair > Photographic Imaging > Community College of Philadelphia > Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. > Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops > > 215 751-8320 > sshire@... > -----Original Message----- > From: Phil Morse [mailto:pmorse@...] > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 11:53 AM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Stan, > > Go to http://www.pbase.com/image/8549120 for a lead on the springs. > These are from a very old McMasters but will probably be the OK. > > Phil Morse > > "Shire,Stanley" wrote: >> >> Carl: >> Thanks for the chart. As soon as I locate a catalog for screen door >> springs we can perhaps use it to get some equivalency chart between > the >> mayer rods and the springs. >> >> Stan Shire >> Associate Professor/Department Chair >> Photographic Imaging >> Community College of Philadelphia >> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. >> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops >> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 17:52:16 -0000 > From: "Bob_Michaels <Bob@...>" <Bob@...> > Subject: 1160 vs. 1280 for quad/hex tone > > Since used 1160s and new 1280s are now about the same price and 1280 > CFS systems deal with the chip issue for $90 more than a 1160 model, > is there any compelling reason to buy a 1160 any more for quad or > hextone printing? > > While I'm happy with Black Only printing with my 1280, I want to try > quad or hextone printing (using Epson driver) but wondering why I > should buy a used 1160 from an unknown person when for a little bit > more could have a new factory warranty 1280 setup for just a little > more. > > Bob Michaels > Apopka FL > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 18:16:54 -0000 > From: "Miguel Angel Aleman <alemanma@...>" <alemanma@...> > Subject: UltraChrome Out-Gassing Concerns > > Hello Everyone (important enough to crosspost across various forums) > > A recent thread on the Epsonx7x_Printer's forum reports on the > formation of an oily substance (with a "clear fine sheen" > appeareance) on the inside of the glass of Ultrachrome/Premium-Luster > framed pieces and on the inside of clear plastic bags containing > similar matted pieces. > > According to the poster, this is happening with a number of images > that were allowed to dry for at least 24 hrs before they were > framed/bagged and are only exposed to normal gallery lighting. > > Anything like this going on your Ultrachrome images? > > Miguel Angel Aleman > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:22:39 -0500 > From: Carl Schofield <scho@...> > Subject: Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Many thanks to Stanley, Paul, and Phil for all of the leads and info on > this coating process. I just tried the "faux meyer rod" technique with > a Stanley screen door spring (1/2" OD, about 12" long,zinc coated) and > some Zar water based poly (not up to specs, but all I could find at the > local hardware store). I didn't use a dowel because the spring is > quite stiff and didn't flex at all when pulling the poly over the > print. For the trials I used small UC matte black prints on 8.5x11 > inch 190gsm Eclipse Satine BW, taped to a sheet of glass, with copy > paper backing as recommended by Paul. First trial I didn't apply > enough poly (used about 8cc) and the bead (puddle) was a little skimpy > at the ends so by the time I reached the bottom of the print I ran out > of poly and the bottom corners didn't get coated. Second trial I used > about 12cc of poly and was more careful laying out the bead across the > top of the print and got a perfect coat. I was absolutely stunned by > the beauty of the surface and depth of the blacks - looks exactly like > some of my old air dried silver prints on Oriental Seagull. > > If you haven't already found it, the McMaster-Carr catalog is online, > including all of the springs that Phil showed from his catalog: > http://www.mcmaster.com/ > > Carl > On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 12:15 PM, Shire,Stanley wrote: > >> Phil: >> Thanks for the spring ref. Looks like the stainless steel would be the >> answer. I'm on it. More tests with various wire diameters to come. >> >> Stan Shire >> Associate Professor/Department Chair >> Photographic Imaging >> Community College of Philadelphia >> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. >> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops >> >> 215 751-8320 >> sshire@... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Phil Morse [mailto:pmorse@...] >> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 11:53 AM >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow >> >> Stan, >> >> Go to http://www.pbase.com/image/8549120 for a lead on the springs. >> These are from a very old McMasters but will probably be the OK. >> >> Phil Morse >> >> "Shire,Stanley" wrote: >>> >>> Carl: >>> Thanks for the chart. As soon as I locate a catalog for screen door >>> springs we can perhaps use it to get some equivalency chart between >> the >>> mayer rods and the springs. >>> >>> Stan Shire >>> Associate Professor/Department Chair >>> Photographic Imaging >>> Community College of Philadelphia >>> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. >>> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops >>> >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >> and >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >> to >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this >> same page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - Include your full name with your message. >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one. >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep them short. >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >> header. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >> various >> resources on the homepage. >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >> this same page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - Include your full name with your message. >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one. >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep them short. >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >> header. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >> various resources on the homepage. >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 18:29:34 -0000 > From: "John Vitollo <johnnyv@...>" <johnnyv@...> > Subject: test > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 19:00:25 -0000 > From: "Bob Frost" <bobfrost@...> > Subject: Re: Re: Chemistry refresher course > > Jerry, > > In some respects yes: but in terms of danger - NO. If you put caustic > soda > (sodium hydroxide - a base) on your skin, as it's name suggests, > you'll get > very bad burns, just as with a concentrated acid. > > Bob Frost. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...> > > >> But ammonia is a base. big difference. > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 19:02:43 -0000 > From: "Stephen A. Tucker <stephentucker@...>" > <stephentucker@...> > Subject: Re: Ah, the digital argument . . . > >> Truman Prevatt wrote: >> >> The harderst thing in art may be to become your >> own person, express yourself - not express what >> you think is safe. Retaking AA or Weston is safe >> - moving out on our owns is scary." >> > > I USED to be scared to move out on my own. Years > ago I became discouraged and gave up photography > when it seemed that I had nothing to say - nothing > to add to those who came before me. Everything had > been done so many times before. And usually better > than I was capable of. > > Digital photography re-invigorated my intertest. > I'm still not sure I have anything "new" to add to > the art of photography - others will have to be the > judge of that. I'm too busy enjoying myself. > > Achieving an original vision remains a difficult and > elusive goal for most of us; relax and do what comes > naturally. At least the fright goes away. > > Steve T. > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 19:29:15 -0000 > From: "Clayton Jones <cj@...>" <cj@...> > Subject: Re: Ah, the digital argument.. > >> There was a movie where this guy was heralded as being a genius, but > was really sort of a not really with it dolt...he would say things > like "plants need water", really meaning that the plants were dry, and > needed to be watered...but others took it as some deep, philosophical > statement... What was that movie? > > "Being There", with Peter Sellers as the gardener. Great movie, and > one of his last before he died. > > Regards, - cj > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 20:10:06 -0000 > From: "sanfo2003 <SandyCornelius@...>" <SandyCornelius@...> > Subject: Re: New Lepp Profiles for 2200 > > The problem I'm running into with greyscale images on the 2200 is > with metamerism. From what I understand metamerism is caused by an > unaligned distribution of pigment particles in the ink that causes > the reflected light to scatter. It seems that as the thickness of the > the ink layer varies so does the metamerism effect thus getting a hue > shift across tones. The fundamental hue will change depending on the > frequency of light reflecting off the ink pigment, this is why you > get the characteristic magenta cast under tungsten light and green > cast under daylight. Since the hue is constantly shifting within > lighter and darker areas of the print due to metamerism, you can't > really build a custom profile to counter this effect since no > spectrophotometer/profile bundle is designed to deal with metamerism. > > Another phenomenom that we have to deal with is that the human eye > can pick up a subtle color cast in a greyscale image right away when > the same cast may go unnoticed in a color image. Tons of toner > solution has been sold in the conventional darkroom field to take > artistic advantage of this ability to pick up a color cast in > greyscale. > > So, as far as digital greyscale images are concerned, one could have > a spot-on profile but still have an unacceptable print due to > metamerism. The bottom line is this: metamerism is an ink issue and > must be solved there before greyscales are beautifully consistant > using archival pigment inks. > > Mechanically Epson printers are there, now Epson should concentrate > on their drivers and inks to deal with the above. I know it can be > done (in fact, some say ColorByte's ImagePrint 5.0 RIP has already > done it, although it wouldn't run on my machine), and when it is we > can concentrate on the art -- and Epson can sell more printers and > ink. I would call that a win-win situation. > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:13:05 -0500 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > Subject: RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > More test results. At Paul's suggestion I laid a few sheets of copy > paper under the print. Better. Recommended. > I also tried covering the copy paper and glass with Saran Wrap. My > thought was to leave the print undisturbed until dry. > Bad idea. The poly did not dry on the bottom. I removed it and dried it > on a junk matboard. > All was well. Print looks great. Printed a second copy, uncoated for > densitometer measurements tomorrow. > Next try will be to dry the print on a fiberglass screen (I knew there > was a reason not to toss those silver print drying screens.) > > Stan Shire > Associate Professor/Department Chair > Photographic Imaging > Community College of Philadelphia > Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. > Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops > > 215 751-8320 > sshire@... > -----Original Message----- > From: Carl Schofield [mailto:scho@...] > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 1:23 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Many thanks to Stanley, Paul, and Phil for all of the leads and info on > this coating process. I just tried the "faux meyer rod" technique with > a Stanley screen door spring (1/2" OD, about 12" long,zinc coated) and > some Zar water based poly (not up to specs, but all I could find at the > local hardware store). I didn't use a dowel because the spring is > quite stiff and didn't flex at all when pulling the poly over the > print. For the trials I used small UC matte black prints on 8.5x11 > inch 190gsm Eclipse Satine BW, taped to a sheet of glass, with copy > paper backing as recommended by Paul. First trial I didn't apply > enough poly (used about 8cc) and the bead (puddle) was a little skimpy > at the ends so by the time I reached the bottom of the print I ran out > of poly and the bottom corners didn't get coated. Second trial I used > about 12cc of poly and was more careful laying out the bead across the > top of the print and got a perfect coat. I was absolutely stunned by > the beauty of the surface and depth of the blacks - looks exactly like > some of my old air dried silver prints on Oriental Seagull. > > If you haven't already found it, the McMaster-Carr catalog is online, > including all of the springs that Phil showed from his catalog: > http://www.mcmaster.com/ > > Carl > On Sunday, December 8, 2002, at 12:15 PM, Shire,Stanley wrote: > >> Phil: >> Thanks for the spring ref. Looks like the stainless steel would be the >> answer. I'm on it. More tests with various wire diameters to come. >> >> Stan Shire >> Associate Professor/Department Chair >> Photographic Imaging >> Community College of Philadelphia >> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. >> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops >> >> 215 751-8320 >> sshire@... >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Phil Morse [mailto:pmorse@...] >> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 11:53 AM >> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com >> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow >> >> Stan, >> >> Go to http://www.pbase.com/image/8549120 for a lead on the springs. >> These are from a very old McMasters but will probably be the OK. >> >> Phil Morse >> >> "Shire,Stanley" wrote: >>> >>> Carl: >>> Thanks for the chart. As soon as I locate a catalog for screen door >>> springs we can perhaps use it to get some equivalency chart between >> the >>> mayer rods and the springs. >>> >>> Stan Shire >>> Associate Professor/Department Chair >>> Photographic Imaging >>> Community College of Philadelphia >>> Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. >>> Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops >>> >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >> and >> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish > to >> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this >> same page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - Include your full name with your message. >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one. >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep them short. >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >> header. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >> various >> resources on the homepage. >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! >> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] >> >> >> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls >> and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint >> >> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish >> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting >> this same page. >> >> Please follow these basic guidelines: >> - Include your full name with your message. >> - Include the address of your website, if you have one. >> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to >> keep them short. >> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject >> header. >> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or >> &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; >> - Complete your Yahoo profile. >> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the >> various resources on the homepage. >> >> >> >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 15:21:51 -0500 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > Subject: RE: Re: New Lepp Profiles for 2200 > > You wrote "you can't really build a custom profile to counter this > effect since no > spectrophotometer/profile bundle is designed to deal with metamerism." > This is about to change. I had a lengthy discussion with a > Gretag/Macbeth engineer at PhotoPlus Expo in NYC last month. > He said that Q1 - 2003, software will be available for the EyeOne to > make it act as a spectroradiometer (Boy, that's my word-of-the-week) > The concept is that a standard profile is built; the EyeOne (presumably > on a laptop) is placed under the display light source (the EyeOne, I > assume is pointed at the light source to measure the ambient light). > This data then modifies the profile to create one which, under that > specific light source, exhibits no metamerism) > Also, ColorByte's profiles for Imageprint come in 3 flavors (cool > white, > daylight and tungsten). The metamerism issue is being addressed. > > > > > Stan Shire > Associate Professor/Department Chair > Photographic Imaging > Community College of Philadelphia > Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. > Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops > > 215 751-8320 > sshire@... > -----Original Message----- > From: sanfo2003 <SandyCornelius@...> > [mailto:SandyCornelius@...] > > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 3:10 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Lepp Profiles for 2200 > > The problem I'm running into with greyscale images on the 2200 is > with metamerism. From what I understand metamerism is caused by an > unaligned distribution of pigment particles in the ink that causes > the reflected light to scatter. It seems that as the thickness of the > the ink layer varies so does the metamerism effect thus getting a hue > shift across tones. The fundamental hue will change depending on the > frequency of light reflecting off the ink pigment, this is why you > get the characteristic magenta cast under tungsten light and green > cast under daylight. Since the hue is constantly shifting within > lighter and darker areas of the print due to metamerism, you can't > really build a custom profile to counter this effect since no > spectrophotometer/profile bundle is designed to deal with metamerism. > > Another phenomenom that we have to deal with is that the human eye > can pick up a subtle color cast in a greyscale image right away when > the same cast may go unnoticed in a color image. Tons of toner > solution has been sold in the conventional darkroom field to take > artistic advantage of this ability to pick up a color cast in > greyscale. > > So, as far as digital greyscale images are concerned, one could have > a spot-on profile but still have an unacceptable print due to > metamerism. The bottom line is this: metamerism is an ink issue and > must be solved there before greyscales are beautifully consistant > using archival pigment inks. > > Mechanically Epson printers are there, now Epson should concentrate > on their drivers and inks to deal with the above. I know it can be > done (in fact, some say ColorByte's ImagePrint 5.0 RIP has already > done it, although it wouldn't run on my machine), and when it is we > can concentrate on the art -- and Epson can sell more printers and > ink. I would call that a win-win situation. > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 21:02:35 -0000 > From: "Mark Tucker <mark@...>" <mark@...> > Subject: Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@c...> wrote: > Next try will be to dry the print on a fiberglass screen (I knew > there >> was a reason not to toss those silver print drying screens.) > > > Stan, > > They Hydrocote that I'm using (and Paul) is nasty stuff when it > comes to drying. It dries very fast, and it will stick to almost > anything. I've lost several test prints, due to leaving them alone, > lying flat on wood, or something else. I come back ten minutes > later, and they are STUCK solid to whatever they were lying on. > > I would suggest maybe a quart can of paint, and then lay the print > on its back, with the quart of paint dead center of the Letter size > print. Just so that no coating is touching any part of what its > resting on. > > The coating process is most definitely a double edged sword. > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:02:53 -0500 > From: "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@...> > Subject: RE: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Thanks for the warning. I'm expecting my Hydrocote shipment tomorrow. > > > Stan Shire > Associate Professor/Department Chair > Photographic Imaging > Community College of Philadelphia > Adobe Photoshop 6 A.C.E. > Author: Hands On Photoshop 7: Tutorial Workshops > > 215 751-8320 > sshire@... > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Tucker <mark@...> [mailto:mark@...] > Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 4:03 PM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, > "Shire,Stanley" <sshire@c...> wrote: > Next try will be to dry the print on a fiberglass screen (I knew > there >> was a reason not to toss those silver print drying screens.) > > > Stan, > > They Hydrocote that I'm using (and Paul) is nasty stuff when it > comes to drying. It dries very fast, and it will stick to almost > anything. I've lost several test prints, due to leaving them alone, > lying flat on wood, or something else. I come back ten minutes > later, and they are STUCK solid to whatever they were lying on. > > I would suggest maybe a quart can of paint, and then lay the print > on its back, with the quart of paint dead center of the Letter size > print. Just so that no coating is touching any part of what its > resting on. > > The coating process is most definitely a double edged sword. > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > ADVERTISEMENT > > <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2711418.4084139.1925585/D=egroupweb/ > S=1705 > 019182:HM/A=1327986/R=0/*http:/ad.doubleclick.net/ > clk;4870027;7586687;a? > http://www.ameriquestmortgage.com/welcome.html?ad=Yahoo01> > > > <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=234081.2711418.4084139.1925585/ > D=egrou > pmail/S=:HM/A=1327986/rand=777317278> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls > and > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject > header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or > &amp;quot;flames.&amp;quot; > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the > various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> Terms of Service. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 21 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 21:37:12 -0000 > From: "Mark Hahn <markhahn2000@...>" <markhahn2000@...> > Subject: Re: 1160 vs. 1280 for quad/hex tone > > less nozzles and hoses to clog? > > I don't know, would be a tough call... the cheapest route would be > just stop printing color and use the 1280 that you already have:) > > mark > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob_Michaels > <Bob@B...>" <Bob@B...> wrote: >> Since used 1160s and new 1280s are now about the same price and 1280 >> CFS systems deal with the chip issue for $90 more than a 1160 model, >> is there any compelling reason to buy a 1160 any more for quad or >> hextone printing? >> >> While I'm happy with Black Only printing with my 1280, I want to try >> quad or hextone printing (using Epson driver) but wondering why I >> should buy a used 1160 from an unknown person when for a little bit >> more could have a new factory warranty 1280 setup for just a little > more. >> >> Bob Michaels >> Apopka FL > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 22 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 21:47:07 -0000 > From: "Tom Andrews <tandrews@...>" <tandrews@...> > Subject: Re: Mayer Rod Substitute...the saga and workflow > > Hi Mark, > > How would you compare your E Velvet Somerset prints without coating > with > the coated ESFA prints you have been experimenting with? Have you > compared the same image printed both ways? This coating business for > large > prints sounds like a huge pain in the ass. Some time ago you were > printing > on Brightcube Eclipse Satine BrightWhite (print exchange-really > nice!). How > do you compare this with the E Velvet Somerset? And have you tried the > Hahnemuhle PhotoRag for comparison? I know you are looking for a > really > substantial hands on feel for your paper, but I am trying to get an > idea of the > print appearance without concern for paper weight. Many thanks!! > > Tom Andrews > http://www.wildlandart.com > >> >> Ironically, I have switched papers to the Epson Velvet Somerset >> 505gsm sheet weight in this 9600, and with the tweaked >> Atkinson profile for it, I am not even feeling the desire to coat >> them. Which is really a drag after spending all this money and >> time buying sprayers, etc. That 505 paper is just gorgeous. >> >> We'll see what happens. I'm sure I'll change my mind tomorrow. >> >> MT, http://www.marktucker.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 23 > Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:07:55 -0800 > From: "Murray Zaharia" <zaharia@...> > Subject: RE: check out - MIS inks and Mulberry Paper > > > Thanks Frank. > That has got to be about the coolest Flash site that I have ever seen! > MZ > > It takes some navigating but check out this site by the Starn Bros. > (fine artists) they have some prints (leaves, botanicals etc.) that > are titled/credited with MIS inks and Myulberry paper - whatever the > heck that is ? Probably some kind of hand-made and hand-coated ? > http://www.starnstudio.com/page2.htm > > enjoy, > Frank > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 24 > Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 16:43:08 -0600 > From: Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...> > Subject: Re: Ah, the digital argument... > > Clayton, this reminds me of what Professor Bogie said at our first > print > critique > at Brooks. "Don't ever bring me a print of a wagon wheel". Ever. I > don't care how great the quality is, I don't want to see it. > > Sure enough, the last day of class someone brought in a fairly nice > picture of a wagon wheel, all mounted on a nice board. Bogie walked > over > to it, picked it up, and tore it into little bits, threw it in the > waste > basket, and went on with the class like nothing had happened. He just > hated wagon wheels. > > Jerry > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > Message: 25 > Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 00:05:57 -0000 > From: "Clayton Jones <cj@...>" <cj@...> > Subject: Re: Ah, the digital argument... > > Jerry, > >> ...picked it up, and tore it into little bits, threw it in the waste >> basket, and went on with the class like nothing had happened. He >> just hated wagon wheels. > > Good story. BTW, I forgot to add something to the list of what I saw > at that web site: cypress roots and kelp at Pt Lobos. > > Regards, - cj > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > _______________________________________________________________________ > _ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > gary