Digital BW, The Print

There is a  thread on the Epsonx7x list has a lot of discussion about the
UltraChrome outgassing issue.  To save you the time of reading through the
entire thread, here is a summary of what I have gleaned from it.  What an
Epson representative said about the issue was reported by lthown on 12/10.

There have been a number reports of UltraChrome prints causing a fog to
appear on the inside of glass frames (or plastic bags that the prints are
stored in) even when the prints have been left to air dry for 24 hours
before being framed.

Epson's response appears to be that the fog is caused by outgassing.

Apparently the glycols in the ink take a long time to totally dry out.  An
Epson rep appears to recommend that the prints be "cured" with a plain piece
of paper in contact with the print for 24 hours.  The paper helps absorb the
water.  With prints that have a heavy ink load it might be necessary to
change the paper after 24 hrs and let it sit another 24 hrs.

The problem apparently arises with any print on an RC paper that is
framed under glass.  The RC paper makes a barrier on one side, and the glass
on the other side.

The Epson rep apparently said that even letting the print dry for 2 weeks
may not outgas the print completely.

I could not tell from the thread whether this problem is unique to the
UltraChrome inks or not.  We've heard of this paper-curing procedure with
respect to other inksets also.  So, the problem may not be new; it may be
just a matter of degree.

I've been told that one way the new inks achieve higher gamut is by holding
a higher load of pigment.  This apparently comes from having a different
base/medium in which the pigments are suspended.  So, it may be that this
base has more of a problem than the older ink base.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

This problem of fogging the glass is not new.  The Epson dye based 
inks for the 1270/1280 class of printers show this effect very 
prominently when printed on the Premium range of RC papers.  Epson 
has always recommended placing a plain paper between prints - which I 
followed in when I got my first inkjet printed some 2 years ago (a 
long time, so it seems).  I have noticed the curing plain paper 
actually curls within a few hours.  So there must be a lot of 
outgassing.  I occasionally pull frames off my wall, dismatle the 
frame, and clean the glass with windex.  Amazing thing is that this 
fog cannot be simply wiped with a soft cloth - it really needs the 
windex or other cleaner.  My frames are metal, so this is not a 
problem.  I would hate to think what people would have to do if 
thehier frames are wood, with all sorts of paper covering up the rear 
of the frame.  The fogging does not happen with EAM or MHW papers - 
it is perceptive of you to suggest the RC as the barrier for 
outgassing to occur from the back side.

Regards.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> There is a  thread on the Epsonx7x list has a lot of discussion 
about the
> UltraChrome outgassing issue.  To save you the time of reading 
through the
> entire thread, here is a summary of what I have gleaned from it.  
What an
> Epson representative said about the issue was reported by lthown on 
12/10.
> 
> There have been a number reports of UltraChrome prints causing a 
fog to
> appear on the inside of glass frames (or plastic bags that the 
prints are
> stored in) even when the prints have been left to air dry for 24 
hours
> before being framed.
> 
> Epson's response appears to be that the fog is caused by outgassing.
> 
> Apparently the glycols in the ink take a long time to totally dry 
out.  An
> Epson rep appears to recommend that the prints be "cured" with a 
plain piece
> of paper in contact with the print for 24 hours.  The paper helps 
absorb the
> water.  With prints that have a heavy ink load it might be 
necessary to
> change the paper after 24 hrs and let it sit another 24 hrs.
> 
> The problem apparently arises with any print on an RC paper that is
> framed under glass.  The RC paper makes a barrier on one side, and 
the glass
> on the other side.
> 
> The Epson rep apparently said that even letting the print dry for 2 
weeks
> may not outgas the print completely.
> 
> I could not tell from the thread whether this problem is unique to 
the
> UltraChrome inks or not.  We've heard of this paper-curing 
procedure with
> respect to other inksets also.  So, the problem may not be new; it 
may be
> just a matter of degree.
> 
> I've been told that one way the new inks achieve higher gamut is by 
holding
> a higher load of pigment.  This apparently comes from having a 
different
> base/medium in which the pigments are suspended.  So, it may be 
that this

> base has more of a problem than the older ink base.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Shilesh,

> Epson 
> has always recommended placing a plain paper between prints

What, exactly, is "plain paper"?

Regards,

Austin

Austin Franklin wrote:

>Hi Shilesh,
>
>  
>
>>Epson 
>>has always recommended placing a plain paper between prints
>>    
>>
>
>What, exactly, is "plain paper"?
>
>  
>
That's a whole 'nother ball of wax... How do I choose paper that won't 
somehow degrade the image where it contacts it?

And, they may have recommended it.. But this "curing" procedure they 
recommend is much more than simply doing that overnight..  In some sense 
it contradicts EPSON's admonitions to keep prints in sleeves or behind 
glass..  Surely, we can't frame a print soon after printing with any 
surety then?  (UNless I frame it with a piece of "plain paper" covering it)
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and founder of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good question Austin.  They don't specify.  But I have used good old 
photocopy paper.

Shilesh

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin 
Franklin" <darkroom@i...> wrote:

> Hi Shilesh,
> 
> > Epson 
> > has always recommended placing a plain paper between prints
> 
> What, exactly, is "plain paper"?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin

I would like to look over some older messages, which I thought was possible 
through the Yahoo Groups site.  When I go there, either independently from 
a bookmark or by clicking on the link at the bottom of each message, I get 
a screen that asks for a password, and when I enter it I get a Select 
Profile screen that says (in more words) "this is the profile that will be 
displayed" and there are "Continue"  and "Cancel" buttons, but neither of 
them do anything - I just stay stuck on that screen.  It happens no matter 
which of the several groups I belong to I use to try to get somewhere.

Am I forgetting something obvious, or is Yahoo just screwed up again?  (I 
recently cancelled all of my group memberships because Yahoo wouldn't let 
me into any of them after setting up some sort of bounce flag on my account 
- even after I cleared the bounce problem.  I resubscribed to most of those 
groups, including this one, but now can't seem to get into any of 
them.)  Any advice is appreciated, as it's very frustrating to hit a wall 
with no obvious explanation, and of course there's no way I've found to ask 
Yahoo anything directly.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Kip

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> There is a  thread on the Epsonx7x list has a lot of discussion 
about the
> UltraChrome outgassing issue. <snip>

> 
> I could not tell from the thread whether this problem is unique to 
the
> UltraChrome inks or not.


From what others have posted, apparently not. In fact, one person says 
the dye inks are worse (1270 experience).


I recommend going to this post on the x7x list: message #10263 by Jack 
Schultz. He has written what amounts to a small treatese on the 
subject. He has seen it with HP printers too...well I guess about ALL 
inkjets. If he knows what he's talking about apparently the glycols 
which act as a base for many inksets outgass. It can be solved by 
putting a piece of paper over the print for 24 hours. And matt papers 
are not affected-unless they have an RC barrier on them if there is 
such a paper.

I also talked to Chris Bair regarding this, some of this info is from 
him.
Jim H.

----- Original Message -----

From: <jimhayes@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:27 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome outgassing


> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > There is a  thread on the Epsonx7x list has a lot of discussion
> about the
> > UltraChrome outgassing issue. <snip>
>
> >
> > I could not tell from the thread whether this problem is unique to
> the
> > UltraChrome inks or not.
>
>
> From what others have posted, apparently not. In fact, one person says
> the dye inks are worse (1270 experience).
>
>
> I recommend going to this post on the x7x list: message #10263 by Jack
> Schultz. He has written what amounts to a small treatese on the
> subject. He has seen it with HP printers too...well I guess about ALL
> inkjets. If he knows what he's talking about apparently the glycols
> which act as a base for many inksets outgass. It can be solved by
> putting a piece of paper over the print for 24 hours. And matt papers
> are not affected-unless they have an RC barrier on them if there is
> such a paper.

The glycols may cause the outgassing. They could condens to the colder glass
plate in front. We have discussed this in the past on the Leben list when it
was observed to happen with the Epson dye inks.
There was even mention of more or less an image transfer to the glass. It
wouldn't surprise me if a lower fraction is carried with the glycol as well
and stays on the glass when the glycol has evaporated from the glass.
Is there glyzerine in the inkmix like there is in Ilford's Archiva ink?

Ernst

In a message dated 12/13/2002 8:06:27 AM Central Standard Time, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:

> From: <jimhayes@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:27 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: UltraChrome outgassing
> 
> 
> >--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> ><paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >>There is a  thread on the Epsonx7x list has a lot of discussion
> >about the
> >>UltraChrome outgassing issue. <snip>
> >
> 

I don't know how comparable this is to the topic, but yesterday I was doing 
some test prints on my Epson C80 using standard color carts and the same 
image but different papers.  The first print was on Epson Enhanced Matte 
paper with no drama.  The second was on some Xerox Color Inkjet Premium Photo 
Paper left over from when my ex left.Upon exiting the printer I held it up 
for a better view and I noticed this almost putrid smell eminating from the 
paper....no this is outgassing I said to myself.  After a couple of hours I 
could no longer smell any odor but it was definately there when first 
printed.  I don't know if there is any incompatibility between the paper and 
ink, or what, but it is there.  There was no odor noticeable using the Epson 
paper.

Jerry in Houston


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We have observed the same phenomena of an image transfer to glass on
framed platinum prints, but the platinum prints look just fine anyway.

Neil Folberg
www.neilfolberg.com

> The glycols may cause the outgassing. They could condens to the
colder glass
> plate in front. We have discussed this in the past on the Leben list
when it
> was observed to happen with the Epson dye inks.
> There was even mention of more or less an image transfer to the
glass. It
> wouldn't surprise me if a lower fraction is carried with the glycol
as well

> and stays on the glass when the glycol has evaporated from the glass.
> Is there glyzerine in the inkmix like there is in Ilford's Archiva ink?
> 
> Ernst