Digital BW, The Print

The FS/Piezo-compatible quad I've mixed from Epson Archival black (a 7500
cart) looks to be a very interesting and neutral inkset.  Assuming the Epson
claims of longevity are true, this could be a 200 year inkset.  Unlike the
color Archival pigments, the all-black-ink quad prints show no significant
metamerism.

The X-Rite readings of representative 21-step test-strip midtones of my "Eps
Arc FS2," printed with the Piezo driver, EAM profile, on my 1160 are as
follows:

Paper	%	Cyan	Magenta	Yellow	Visual

Epson Archival Matte

	25%	.34	.35		.35		.35
	50%	.63	.64		.63		.63
	75%	1.02	1.02		1.02		1.02

Legion Photo Matte

	25%	.35	.36		.35		.36
	50%	.63	.63		.61		.63
	75%	1.02	1.02		1.00		1.02

Eclipse Satine Bright White

	25%	.29	.30		.29		.29
	50%	.56	.56		.55		.56
	75%	.88	.87		.86		.88

The magenta reading being slightly above the average of the cyan and yellow
is typical of selenium-toned silver prints (and the PiezoTone selenium).
Cool shadow tones are also typical of selenium-toned prints.  With the MIS
Matte Black ink that I currently have in the printer, this is carried right
through to the 100% black position on both LPM and Eclipse.

The "Eps Arc FS2" mix is as follows:

	Cyan = 50% Arc K
	Magenta = 11% Arc K
	Yellow = 5.13% Arc K

These percentages need a bit of fine tuning, but, as can be seen from the
density readings, they are very close.  (The 75% readings will probably
increase 0.01 as they age.)  I'm not sure what Piezo profile people use for
Eclipse and LPM, so I just used the EAM profile.

The Epson Archival black can be harvested from large format cartridges.   I
used the standard MIS clear base to dilute the black ink.

While I have no fade tests yet -- and the results of those will be affect
which direction I go -- I tentatively think that a quad based on the Epson
Archival black is in my future.  What black-position ink I will use is too
early to tell.  Fade tests and paper choice are major variables there.

The pure Epson Archival K-based midtones look great to me, and the use of
Epson Archival inks (without the baggage of metamerism and weak blacks,
since that position is wide open) could be significant.  Once diluted, the
prices are competitive.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

On 12/12/02 9:57 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> The FS/Piezo-compatible quad I've mixed from Epson Archival black (a 7500
> cart) looks to be a very interesting and neutral inkset.  Assuming the Epson
> claims of longevity are true, this could be a 200 year inkset.  Unlike the
> color Archival pigments, the all-black-ink quad prints show no significant
> metamerism.
> 
> The X-Rite readings of representative 21-step test-strip midtones of my "Eps
> Arc FS2," printed with the Piezo driver, EAM profile, on my 1160 are as
> follows:
> 
> Paper    %    Cyan    Magenta    Yellow    Visual
> 
> Epson Archival Matte
> 
> 25%    .34    .35        .35        .35
> 50%    .63    .64        .63        .63
> 75%    1.02    1.02        1.02        1.02
> 
> Legion Photo Matte
> 
> 25%    .35    .36        .35        .36
> 50%    .63    .63        .61        .63
> 75%    1.02    1.02        1.00        1.02
> 
> Eclipse Satine Bright White
> 
> 25%    .29    .30        .29        .29
> 50%    .56    .56        .55        .56
> 75%    .88    .87        .86        .88
> 
> The magenta reading being slightly above the average of the cyan and yellow
> is typical of selenium-toned silver prints (and the PiezoTone selenium).
> Cool shadow tones are also typical of selenium-toned prints.  With the MIS
> Matte Black ink that I currently have in the printer, this is carried right
> through to the 100% black position on both LPM and Eclipse.
> 
> The "Eps Arc FS2" mix is as follows:
> 
> Cyan = 50% Arc K
> Magenta = 11% Arc K
> Yellow = 5.13% Arc K
> 
> These percentages need a bit of fine tuning, but, as can be seen from the
> density readings, they are very close.  (The 75% readings will probably
> increase 0.01 as they age.)  I'm not sure what Piezo profile people use for
> Eclipse and LPM, so I just used the EAM profile.
> 
> The Epson Archival black can be harvested from large format cartridges.   I
> used the standard MIS clear base to dilute the black ink.
> 
> While I have no fade tests yet -- and the results of those will be affect
> which direction I go -- I tentatively think that a quad based on the Epson
> Archival black is in my future.  What black-position ink I will use is too
> early to tell.  Fade tests and paper choice are major variables there.
> 
> The pure Epson Archival K-based midtones look great to me, and the use of
> Epson Archival inks (without the baggage of metamerism and weak blacks,
> since that position is wide open) could be significant.  Once diluted, the
> prices are competitive.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
Paul, what the dmax for this ink on these papers?  As I recall it was quite
poor.  In fact, my memory suggests that all papers were actually less than
1.5. I really receive proof prints from a printer that uses a 10000 (same
inks as the 7500) and the blacks are always very poor.

Also, the 200 year estimate is certainly a bogus figure.  I know that these
inks do fade in sunlight quite quickly...but I haven't actually seen CYMK
fades so I don't know specifically about the black.  But it will be
interesting to see how they do in your fader compared to the current
competition.

Robert

Robert,

I don't think anyone will use the Epson Archival black ink in the black
position for matte paper.  That position is open.  That is one reason I
didn't report the 100% patch.  I currently have the MIS Matte Black in
there, and it looks terrific on Eclipse and LPM.  However, I have no fade
test results for the MIS Matte Black, and Epson's Matte Black is much darker
on EAM.

So far the Epson Matte Black is the most lightfast black ink I've tested.  I
assume the Epson Archival black is better, but I doubt it's enough better to
warrant its use on matte papers.  Ongoing fade tests will be needed to see
what black ink is best.  I don't have any of Cone's latest "Archival" black
ink, but it would be one I'd like to test also.  So far, I've seen no
reliable data on it.

I might note that Epson Matte Black has some negatives.  It appeared to
cause vertical banding on my 1160.  It also is very warm, making it great
for a warm inkset, but not so great for a neutral or cool one.

Of course, all inks fade.  I suppose even silver prints fade.  (I'll
eventually make some silver test strips for comparative fade testing.)
However, for indoor display, I think the Epson Archival inkset is probably
the most lightfast there is that is feasible on the printers we typically
use.  I have never seen any reports of any indoor inkset that can beat or
even match it.  I suspect the coating of the particles is one key to this
performance.  While carbon may be relatively stable, it clearly oxidizes.
An oxygen barrier should increase it's fade resistance.

I was hoping that the coatings we are experimenting with would be a
substitute for the Epson encapsulation.  However, my fade tests as well as
other information on the nature of the coatings makes me doubt that any
water-borne coating will match what Epson has.  The water-borne acrylics, in
particular, appear to have no significant gas or moisture barrier
properties.  The cross-linking of polyurethanes should help, but the extent
of such in single-component PURs may be too little to have much effect.
Also, the water-borne coatings are probably just laying on top of the
particles instead of surrounding them.  Thus, the gas and moisture can get
to the pigments through the paper.

The difference in the adhesion statistics between the water and
solvent-borne coatings is dramatic.  This measure, from what I can tell,
indirectly tells us the extent to which the water-borne dispersions are not
penetrating much more than the pigment particles themselves.  They just lay
on the surface.

Of course, the sprayed solvent-base PURs I've tried have also had no
significant impact on fade resistance.  It may be that a low molecular
weight coating like Gamvar would have some chance of doing the job.

Have you tried any of the solvent based coatings directly on the paper?  I
have the impression there are problems of uneven paper penetration and
blotchiness.

At any rate, while I have no fade test results yet, if I were a gambling
person, I'd bet that the Epson Archival black-based midtone quad pigs set
the standard for now.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_______________________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:13 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Archival quad


  On 12/12/02 9:57 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

  > The FS/Piezo-compatible quad I've mixed from Epson Archival black (a
7500
  > cart) looks to be a very interesting and neutral inkset.  Assuming the
Epson
  > claims of longevity are true, this could be a 200 year inkset.  Unlike
the
  > color Archival pigments, the all-black-ink quad prints show no
significant
  > metamerism.
  >
  > The X-Rite readings of representative 21-step test-strip midtones of my
"Eps
  > Arc FS2," printed with the Piezo driver, EAM profile, on my 1160 are as
  > follows:
  >
  > Paper    %    Cyan    Magenta    Yellow    Visual
  >
  > Epson Archival Matte
  >
  > 25%    .34    .35        .35        .35
  > 50%    .63    .64        .63        .63
  > 75%    1.02    1.02        1.02        1.02
  >
  > Legion Photo Matte
  >
  > 25%    .35    .36        .35        .36
  > 50%    .63    .63        .61        .63
  > 75%    1.02    1.02        1.00        1.02
  >
  > Eclipse Satine Bright White
  >
  > 25%    .29    .30        .29        .29
  > 50%    .56    .56        .55        .56
  > 75%    .88    .87        .86        .88
  >
  > The magenta reading being slightly above the average of the cyan and
yellow
  > is typical of selenium-toned silver prints (and the PiezoTone selenium).
  > Cool shadow tones are also typical of selenium-toned prints.  With the
MIS
  > Matte Black ink that I currently have in the printer, this is carried
right
  > through to the 100% black position on both LPM and Eclipse.
  >
  > The "Eps Arc FS2" mix is as follows:
  >
  > Cyan = 50% Arc K
  > Magenta = 11% Arc K
  > Yellow = 5.13% Arc K
  >
  > These percentages need a bit of fine tuning, but, as can be seen from
the
  > density readings, they are very close.  (The 75% readings will probably
  > increase 0.01 as they age.)  I'm not sure what Piezo profile people use
for
  > Eclipse and LPM, so I just used the EAM profile.
  >
  > The Epson Archival black can be harvested from large format cartridges.
I
  > used the standard MIS clear base to dilute the black ink.
  >
  > While I have no fade tests yet -- and the results of those will be
affect
  > which direction I go -- I tentatively think that a quad based on the
Epson
  > Archival black is in my future.  What black-position ink I will use is
too
  > early to tell.  Fade tests and paper choice are major variables there.
  >
  > The pure Epson Archival K-based midtones look great to me, and the use
of
  > Epson Archival inks (without the baggage of metamerism and weak blacks,
  > since that position is wide open) could be significant.  Once diluted,
the
  > prices are competitive.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com
  >
  Paul, what the dmax for this ink on these papers?  As I recall it was
quite
  poor.  In fact, my memory suggests that all papers were actually less than
  1.5. I really receive proof prints from a printer that uses a 10000 (same
  inks as the 7500) and the blacks are always very poor.

  Also, the 200 year estimate is certainly a bogus figure.  I know that
these
  inks do fade in sunlight quite quickly...but I haven't actually seen CYMK
  fades so I don't know specifically about the black.  But it will be
  interesting to see how they do in your fader compared to the current
  competition.

  Robert



  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 12/12/02 11:31 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> So far the Epson Matte Black is the most lightfast black ink I've tested.  I
> assume the Epson Archival black is better, but I doubt it's enough better to
> warrant its use on matte papers.  Ongoing fade tests will be needed to see
> what black ink is best.  I don't have any of Cone's latest "Archival" black
> ink, but it would be one I'd like to test also.  So far, I've seen no
> reliable data on it.

So you don't trust the RIT test data that cone published?  Admittedly I will
feel better about the fade once we have it in your fader...but I don't see
any reason not to trust the RIT numbers...and they seem pretty clear as
compared to the MIS-FS black...of course he wasn't running Ultrachrome Matte
Black.

Robert

Robert,

I have not seen the RIT numbers.  Do you have a link to them?

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

________________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 11:51 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Archival quad + coatings


  On 12/12/02 11:31 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

  > So far the Epson Matte Black is the most lightfast black ink I've
tested.  I
  > assume the Epson Archival black is better, but I doubt it's enough
better to
  > warrant its use on matte papers.  Ongoing fade tests will be needed to
see
  > what black ink is best.  I don't have any of Cone's latest "Archival"
black
  > ink, but it would be one I'd like to test also.  So far, I've seen no
  > reliable data on it.

  So you don't trust the RIT test data that cone published?  Admittedly I
will
  feel better about the fade once we have it in your fader...but I don't see
  any reason not to trust the RIT numbers...and they seem pretty clear as
  compared to the MIS-FS black...of course he wasn't running Ultrachrome
Matte
  Black.

  Robert


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On 12/12/02 11:31 AM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Have you tried any of the solvent based coatings directly on the paper?  I
> have the impression there are problems of uneven paper penetration and
> blotchiness.

Yes, I've tried all of these including Gamvar and the Goldern MSA varnish,
and yes they do not work unless you seal the paper first with a water-based
product first.  In addition Gamvar will stink up a house to the point that
your head spins in about 15 minutes of use.  With the seal coat they give a
nice high gloss finish...but it can take you days to coat a single print
because they require several coats with 6-12hour dry times...not an option.

Robert

----- Original Message -----

From: "Tim Atherton" <timatherton@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [Digital BW] Epson Archival quad + coatings


> > Of course, all inks fade.  I suppose even silver prints fade.  (I'll
> > eventually make some silver test strips for comparative fade testing.)
>
> In the Conservation and Archives communities, this is exactly one of
> the points being made in developing standards for digital archiving.
> Silver prints do fade, even when kept in ideal conditions. Silver
> prints now in collelctions have only had their deteriation slowed down
> by being stored in ideal conditions - many older ones are now
> deteriorating noticably, and nothing much else can be done to prevent
> it - they are reaching the end of their life and will eventually
> deteriorate so far as to be unusable - be it after 75, 100, 125 or 150
> years.

In the end it will become clear that we never should have abandoned the
asphalt process of Niepce.
The first and last print on earth.

Ernst

> Of course, all inks fade.  I suppose even silver prints fade.  (I'll
> eventually make some silver test strips for comparative fade testing.)

In the Conservation and Archives communities, this is exactly one of 
the points being made in developing standards for digital archiving. 
Silver prints do fade, even when kept in ideal conditions. Silver 
prints now in collelctions have only had their deteriation slowed down 
by being stored in ideal conditions - many older ones are now 
deteriorating noticably, and nothing much else can be done to prevent 
it - they are reaching the end of their life and will eventually 
deteriorate so far as to be unusable - be it after 75, 100, 125 or 150 
years.

>> Of course, all inks fade.  I suppose even silver prints fade.
>>(I'll eventually make some silver test strips for comparative
>>fade testing.)
>
> In the Conservation and Archives communities, this is exactly one of
> the points being made in developing standards for digital archiving.
> Silver prints do fade, even when kept in ideal conditions. ...

The copying, restoring, & printing I do for our little museum and others
seem to mostly involve albumen prints.  They are often very faded after 100
years.  Copying can restore the contrast and make a huge difference in
appearance, but every iteration of copying and restoring is going to lose
some information.

I must say, however, that the fading is easier to deal with than the
physical damage that has occurred to many if not most of the old prints that
I work on.

One reason for my interest in the toughest possible inkset & coating is in
the hope of getting something that will last as long as possible in this
context.

>In the end it will become clear that we never should have
>abandoned the asphalt process of Niepce.
>The first and last print on earth.

Hmmm, an asphalt inkset ...

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

On 12/12/02 12:17 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> I have not seen the RIT numbers.  Do you have a link to them?
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com


They are the numbers that we were all talking about a month ago.  The fades
were done by RIT.  They are all published in the files section on the
piezography3000 list.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/files/400%20Hour%20Xenon%20tes
ts/400hour-PhotoRag.pdf

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/files/400%20Hour%20Xenon%20tes
ts/400hour-EPSON_EAM.pdf

Robert

Robert,

Thanks for the link.

I don't think those are RIT numbers.  I thought these were tests Cone did
in-house.   I recall the question of what if any filter Cone used on the
Xenon lamp.  The tests say "UV light."  Most use a filter with these lights
that emulate window-filtered sunlight.

At any rate, these tests do show that the "Museum" black performs better
than the FS/VM black at least with this light.  It's definitely an ink I'll
want to test.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

_________________________

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Robert Morrison [mailto:rmorrison@...]
  Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 2:16 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson Archival quad + coatings


  On 12/12/02 12:17 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

  > Robert,
  >
  > I have not seen the RIT numbers.  Do you have a link to them?
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com


  They are the numbers that we were all talking about a month ago.  The
fades
  were done by RIT.  They are all published in the files section on the
  piezography3000 list.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/files/400%20Hour%20Xenon%20tes
  ts/400hour-PhotoRag.pdf


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piezography3000/files/400%20Hour%20Xenon%20tes
  ts/400hour-EPSON_EAM.pdf

  Robert


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
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  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
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  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
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  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]