Digital BW, The Print

I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described by 
Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750 
printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body in 
them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the 
intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and adjusted 
the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired 
results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to 
print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with 
Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read about 
this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to 
buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man 
soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy tomorrow 
for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today 
trying to get it right.

You may not be doing very much wrong at all. Printing with black ink
only is not a very good way to get grey tones - you are essentially
halftoning _everything_ so there's going to be a point where there are
so few black dots in your grey area that it looks pretty much white.

Quadtone prints were basically invented in order to fix this problem -
so you can have real grey tones instead of halftones. Don't count on
black ink only giving you great prints - maybe "Good enough" maybe
"Fine" and maybe "I like it" but they aren't going to look as good as
your quadtones. (IMHO of course)

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
<jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:

> I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described by 
> Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750 
> printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body in 
> them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the 
> intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
> without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and adjusted 
> the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired 
> results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to 
> print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with 
> Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read about 
> this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to 
> buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man 
> soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy tomorrow 
> for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today 
> trying to get it right.

My question is why do my Black Only prints look as good as my
hextones? (1280, FSN-E inks, Woolf workflow and curves) Both prints
and 21 step wedges show smooth transitions and very small dots either
BO or hex.

I've seen enough quadtone and hextone prints to determine that my hex
are not bad. Of course, I've seen better than mine, but not really in
the dot size or transitions. It's just that my BO look as good. 

99% of you out there say that Black Only doesn't work for you. But it
does for me. I'm seriously baffled and open to thought and
suggestions. A few of you out there have seen my Black Only prints, so
speak up. Even if it's only to say that hextone prints must be crappy
if they don't look any better than my BO. 

BTW, I know nothing about Canon printers, just Epson 1280 with the
Epson driver at 1440 dpi. 

Bob Michaels
 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Charles Bandes
<byronbulb@y...>" <byronbulb@y...> wrote:

> You may not be doing very much wrong at all. Printing with black ink
> only is not a very good way to get grey tones - you are essentially
> halftoning _everything_ so there's going to be a point where there are
> so few black dots in your grey area that it looks pretty much white.
> 
> Quadtone prints were basically invented in order to fix this problem -
> so you can have real grey tones instead of halftones. Don't count on
> black ink only giving you great prints - maybe "Good enough" maybe
> "Fine" and maybe "I like it" but they aren't going to look as good as
> your quadtones. (IMHO of course)
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
> <jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described by 
> > Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750 
> > printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body in 
> > them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the 
> > intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
> > without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and adjusted 
> > the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired 
> > results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to 
> > print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with 
> > Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read about 
> > this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to 
> > buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man 
> > soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy tomorrow 
> > for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today 
> > trying to get it right.

Hi Charles;
 Don't be discouraged by claims that it isn't good enough- I've seen 
great prints by Clayton and (I think) a list member named Huntley? 
he shoots 8x10 and his stuff was georgeous. And for some reason his 
1160 did a far better job of it than my 1280, as does Claytons 870. 
I think a lot depends on the individual printer and model, and we 
never had anything except our Epsons to test this out on.

Just the same, let me offer a suggestion. Clayton recomends setting 
the printer profile (under color management in the print dialogue) 
to 'same as source'. That's fine if the base setting of 'Dot-gain 
20' or Gray gamma 2.2 works for you. However,the source profile and 
printer profile in effect cancel each other out if you have to move 
off-center and you leave it on 'same as source'. You need to keep 
the printer profile on DG-20 (or move it downwards if you need 
darker) while you move the source profile upwards. In other words, 
they have to move in opposite directions to have an effect on your 
tonal values. 

Bear in mind that these are just simple curves. A DG-20 means you 
take a linear curve graph, grab it at the 50% point and move it up 
to the 70% percent point. If your particular image needs a more 
complex adjustment, you'll still have to apply that as a curve 
yourself. All you can do is find a 'center' that gets you close,then 
you fine-tune as always.

Best luck,

Steve Karafyllakis

http://stevekphoto.com

-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947 
<jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described 
by 
> Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750 
> printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body in 
> them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the 
> intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
> without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and 
adjusted 
> the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired 
> results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to 
> print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with 
> Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read 
about 
> this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to 
> buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man 
> soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy 
tomorrow 
> for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today 
> trying to get it right.

If my Gray Balancer software is switched on when I do BO printing I
get really ugly transitions in the highlights just like you describe.
Check if there is any type of color management software runnning in
the background that interferes with your printing. I'm not familiar
with the Canon, so I'm afraid I can't be more specific.

BO prints can look extremely good, I have one of Clayton's prints and
you couldn't possibly ask for anything better. Smooth tones, excellent
shadows and highlights, and a certain sharpness in small details that
look different from full-color BW prints. Yes, the dots are there, but
they're not obvious unless you're looking really close at the picture,
and even then I don't think they detract from the overall impression
in any way. There are many ways do make a great print, and I think BO
is definitely one of them. I would do more of them myself if I could
get some neutral black inks for my 2100.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
<jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:

> I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described by 
> Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750 
> printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body in 
> them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the 
> intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
> without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and adjusted 
> the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired 
> results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to 
> print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with 
> Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read about 
> this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to 
> buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man 
> soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy tomorrow 
> for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today 
> trying to get it right.

Hello jeades947,
 
>when I try this with my Canon S750 printer; I fail to get any 
>values above Zone 7 to have any body in them. They are all blank 
>white. 

Sorry for replying so late, I was gone all day yesterday.  I have an
idea to suggest, but first I must disagree with Charles' statement:

"Printing with black ink only is not a very good way to get 
grey tones..."

BO printing can produce beautiful gray tones.  Yes, it does it by
adjusting the spacing and dithering of the dots, and yes, at some
point as you approach white there are very few dots (and finally,
none), but this does not automatically mean there is a sudden fall off
from gray to white with no transition.  BO can render beautifully the
most subtle gradations, all the way across the scale.

I'm sure Charles believes what he's saying, so I can only assume he's
never seen a well done BO print, or perhaps his experience with them
was with earlier model printers.  Today's printers can produce
gorgeous BO results.  

>when I try this with my Canon S750 printer; I fail to get any 
>values above Zone 7 to have any body in them. They are all blank 
>white. 
>I have tried increasing the 
>intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
>without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and 
>adjusted the curve in the direction I thought would give me the 
>desired results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer 
>it was to print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% 
>with Photoshop. I was using Quadtone printing very well before...

Three things stand out to me here: the S750 printer, previous
quadtone printing, and Dot Gain 30%.

1) The printer - perhaps there is an issue here where this model can't
do good BO printing.  I have an HP 6122 (for general office work)
which does does very poorly at BO (crummy dithering pattern).  In your
case it might be a problem with the image, so one way to test the
printer's capabilities is with Paul Roark's enhanced gray scale step
wedge, available in the Files section of this Forum.  Or just make a
21 step wedge in PS with the gradient and posterization tools.  Print
it with the back end profile set to "Same As Source".  If it prints
poorly, try different paper type settings and find the best one.  Also
try the printer gamma setting if there is one (Epson Driver has this
under Black Ink setting)  Try everything _except_ profiles and
transfer curves to get the best step wedge.

2) previous quadtone printing - Are you trying to print an image
that was previously worked up for quadtone printing?  If so, perhaps a
different treatment is needed for BO.  I'm just grasping at straws
here, not knowing anything more about the image.

3) "assigned Dot Gain 30%" - from the description this sounds like a
front end profile, and it sounds like you are using it in an attempt
to affect the printed output.  Did you read article #4?  One of its
main points was not to use the front end profile as a tool to change
the print, but only to get better WYSIWYG.  It CAN seem to affect the
print if the backend profile is set to something other than "Same As
Source", but that's because when the two profiles are different they
work against each other.  One pulls while the other pushes, and each
possible combination has a different effect.   So when you change the
front end profile, both the screen image AND the printed image change.
 So it's a less intuitive way to work.  DG-30 seems like an awfully
radical front end curve, especially remembering that these curves
change the contrast as well as the brightness.

So what to do?  Assuming that the printer is capable (prints a good
step wedge), the problem must be in the image itself.  I'd try, for
starters, setting front end to DG-20 (because it's in the middle of
the brightness range), back end to "Same As Source", and make a
print. 
Then adjust the front end profile, up or down, looking for a screen
image that most closely matches the print.  Now you have a profile
setting that gives good WYSIWYG.  Now look to see if you can see
detail on the screen in the zones from 7 on up that look washed out in
the print.  If you can't see much then the image needs adjusting.  If
the image looks good on screen...then I don't know what to say.  Maybe
the Canon deiver???

Good luck with it.  Please let us know what happens.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "danielstaver 
<daniel@p...>" <daniel@p...> wrote:
> If my Gray Balancer software is switched on when I do BO printing I
> get really ugly transitions in the highlights just like you 
describe.
> Check if there is any type of color management software runnning in
> the background that interferes with your printing. I'm not familiar
> with the Canon, so I'm afraid I can't be more specific.
> 
> BO prints can look extremely good, I have one of Clayton's prints 
and
> you couldn't possibly ask for anything better. Smooth tones, 
excellent
> shadows and highlights, and a certain sharpness in small details 
that
> look different from full-color BW prints. Yes, the dots are there, 
but
> they're not obvious unless you're looking really close at the 
picture,
> and even then I don't think they detract from the overall impression
> in any way. There are many ways do make a great print, and I think 
BO
> is definitely one of them. I would do more of them myself if I could
> get some neutral black inks for my 2100.
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jeades947
> <jeades1@s...>" <jeades1@s...> wrote:
> > I have tried to get the hang of black only printing as described 
by 
> > Clayton Jones so well.But, when I try this with my Canon S750 
> > printer; I fail to get any values above Zone 7 to have any body 
in 
> > them. They are all blank white. I have tried increasing the 
> > intensity of the black ink from within the printer properties 
> > without success at all. I even went to transfer setting and 
adjusted 
> > the curve in the direction I thought would give me the desired 
> > results, without any avail. I indicated to the printer it was to 
> > print in grayscale mode and had assigned Dot Gain 30% with 
> > Photoshop.I was using Quadtone printing very well till I read 
about 
> > this which would seem to save a bundle of cash from not having to 
> > buy color cartridges every two weeks. That will break a rich man 
> > soon. What am I obviously doing wrong????? Back to Best Buy 
tomorrow 
> > for more ink to experiment with. I must have made 30 prints today 
> > trying to get it right.

I just acquired an Epson 2200 and tried black only printing using the 
Photo black ink and Epson Premium glossy paper. Although the 
sharpness and tonal gradations are excellent, the color of the print 
is very warm -- objectionably so for my taste. I am about to try the 
matte black and a matte paper such as EAM. I am a long time user of 
Piezo inks and get very satisfactory results from my Epson 1160 with 
piezotone inks. Is there some way of getting neutral B&W prints from 
the 2200 without investing in something like Imageprint 5?

David Tilson

Hello David,

>I just acquired an Epson 2200 and tried black only printing using
>the Photo black ink and Epson Premium glossy paper. Although the 
>sharpness and tonal gradations are excellent, the color of the
>print is very warm -- objectionably so for my taste. I am about 
>to try the matte black and a matte paper such as EAM. I am a 
>long time user of Piezo inks and get very satisfactory results 
>from my Epson 1160 with piezotone inks. Is there some way of 
>getting neutral B&W prints from the 2200 without investing in 
>something like Imageprint 5?

You may find the Matte Black to be even warmer than the Photo Black. 
The problem with all these pigment inks is that the pure carbon is
warm brown, not black.  So black dyes of various sorts are added to
get real black.  But the dyes degrade or "burn off" after some time
which is what causes the warming/color shifting everyone complains
about.  So the way to get inks that won't shift is to add little or no
dye in the first place, which I think is what the Matte Black is, pure
carbon pigment.  

So, if you stick with gray scale inks you either get warm prints that
don't shift, or neutral prints that eventually get warm to some
degree.  Depending on the particular ink formula, some inks warm
evenly and some unevenly, depending on the amount of colorants in the
different positions.  Or else you use pure carbon and mix in some cyan
and magenta to cool it off, which is what I think the RIPs do on the
2200.  

I saw one of Daniel's prints from a 2100 using Power RIP.  It looks
fairly neutral, and with a loupe I can see the light C and M dots
mixed in with the black and gray.  It looks very nice, but then he
sent the same image printed BO2 (BO2 means using both the Black and
Gray inks Only, as Power RIP can do).  The BO2 image had, to my eyes,
much better shadow detail and 3D depth.  Overall a much nicer looking
print, really gorgeous - only real warm. 

What is best at this point is still up for grabs.  Isn't Jon Cone
working on PzTone carts for the 2200?  Maybe that will be the best
thing.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I think I must have made some other adjustments to the BO2 print I
sent you that accounts for the extra depth and shadow detail. I don't
remember exactly what, other than adjusting the black point differently.

A BO2 print and PowerRIP neutral print printed on the same paper with
same settings look about the same, except for the warmer tone of the
BO2 print.

Piezotone carts for the 2100 would be wonderful. Especially if you
could use the two black carts along with the normal Ultrachrome color
inks. That could possibly be a killer combination for BW and color
printing in one printer! 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones
<cj@c...>" <cj@c...> wrote:

> Hello David,
> 
> >I just acquired an Epson 2200 and tried black only printing using
> >the Photo black ink and Epson Premium glossy paper. Although the 
> >sharpness and tonal gradations are excellent, the color of the
> >print is very warm -- objectionably so for my taste. I am about 
> >to try the matte black and a matte paper such as EAM. I am a 
> >long time user of Piezo inks and get very satisfactory results 
> >from my Epson 1160 with piezotone inks. Is there some way of 
> >getting neutral B&W prints from the 2200 without investing in 
> >something like Imageprint 5?
> 
> You may find the Matte Black to be even warmer than the Photo Black. 
> The problem with all these pigment inks is that the pure carbon is
> warm brown, not black.  So black dyes of various sorts are added to
> get real black.  But the dyes degrade or "burn off" after some time
> which is what causes the warming/color shifting everyone complains
> about.  So the way to get inks that won't shift is to add little or no
> dye in the first place, which I think is what the Matte Black is, pure
> carbon pigment.  
> 
> So, if you stick with gray scale inks you either get warm prints that
> don't shift, or neutral prints that eventually get warm to some
> degree.  Depending on the particular ink formula, some inks warm
> evenly and some unevenly, depending on the amount of colorants in the
> different positions.  Or else you use pure carbon and mix in some cyan
> and magenta to cool it off, which is what I think the RIPs do on the
> 2200.  
> 
> I saw one of Daniel's prints from a 2100 using Power RIP.  It looks
> fairly neutral, and with a loupe I can see the light C and M dots
> mixed in with the black and gray.  It looks very nice, but then he
> sent the same image printed BO2 (BO2 means using both the Black and
> Gray inks Only, as Power RIP can do).  The BO2 image had, to my eyes,
> much better shadow detail and 3D depth.  Overall a much nicer looking
> print, really gorgeous - only real warm. 
> 
> What is best at this point is still up for grabs.  Isn't Jon Cone
> working on PzTone carts for the 2200?  Maybe that will be the best
> thing.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm