Digital BW, The Print

I'm looking for a good work flow converting my D100 NEF's to B&W.  I 
can get to B&W easy enough and the final print is nice but they're 
missing some depth and contrast.  After tweaking in Capture 3 I 
convert to TIF and open in Photoshop 6 where I've used simple convert 
to grayscale, curves, etc. and the little more involved channel 
mixer.  I've tried creating layers of hue and saturation per Ian 
Lyons and a few other methods.  I'm using the VM inks with Paul 
Roark's curves right now but have tried the Boley and Krebs curves 
too.  I've tried the VM-S but haven't tried the FS inks yet.  I print 
to a 1280.  I have an 870 too with MIS dye ink and can get real nice 
Black Only prints.  The only thing is I don't like the dots. 

I keep working on the front end of taking decent images and maybe 
that's where I should concentrate.  I'm doing lots of reading and 
have hundreds of test images with different settings, paper, drivers, 
etc.  It's becoming an obsession with me.  I think about this stuff 
all the time but don't get me wrong I love it and know I can only get 
better.  When I started with color four or five years ago I went 
through the same pain with inks, color management and such but I 
think B&W is even more of a challenge.

Anyway, sorry for the long sob story but I'm wondering how do you get 
to your B&W image?  Do you do it all in grayscale and then convert to 
RGB or do you keep it in RGB all the way?  There're a bunch of plug-
ins out there for converting to B&W but they can't do much more than 
Photoshop right?  Is Piezography the answer?

Thanks,

Tom Husband

> Anyway, sorry for the long sob story but I'm wondering how do you get 
> to your B&W image?  Do you do it all in grayscale and then convert to 
> RGB or do you keep it in RGB all the way?

Tri-X and HP5...  :-)

But if you've never used film before, try this. It's not the cheapest, but I
find this does an excellent job

The BW filter from www.theimagingfactory.com

Actually, I think this filter is probably most useful for those who HAVE 
used black and white film and done darkroom printing.  The image contrast 
filter slider is just like (but much more flexible than) contrast 
correction filters for film, and the camera exposure, enlarger exposure and 
paper contrast sliders do just what I always imagined I ought to be able to 
do in a darkroom but never got quite right.  I may not know exactly what's 
going on under the Photoshop filter, but I can see what I'm going to get on 
the paper, so this has become my standard black and white conversion 
tool.  The only downside that I perceive is that you can't go back once 
you've applied the corrections, other than to undo everything and start 
over (although the filter "remembers" its last settings.)  But maybe this 
is the same with any of the other conversion approaches.

As for its cost, I'd forgotten what it cost by the second time I used it.

Cheers,
Kip

At 3/17/2003 08:57 AM -0700, you wrote:

>But if you've never used film before, try this. It's not the cheapest, but I
>find this does an excellent job
>
>The BW filter from www.theimagingfactory.com

I've started using the Adobe Camera Raw plugin to do my bw conversions. It basically has the hue/saturation method built in to its interface, plus some levels control. 

So what I do -

I bring the saturation to zero. Then I play with the white balance control until I like the general range of tones. Then I move the shadow slider until the black point is where I want it, then I move the highlight slider until the white point is where I want it, then I hit ok and I'm pretty much done.

When I shoot jpg I just use the channel mixer, which does a good job imho.

> Anyway, sorry for the long sob story but I'm wondering how do you get 
> to your B&W image?  Do you do it all in grayscale and then convert to 
> RGB or do you keep it in RGB all the way?
> Tom Husband

Have you tried converting RGB to Lab then turn off A and B channel and work with the Lightness channel - works most of the time for me. But it seems your problem is more on the output side?

You can find lots of detailed instructions on converting color to B&W in
a sample chapter I have posted on my Web site. 

I also have recently been using Pictographics' EditLabs plug-in to
convert color to B&W. It gives me more control than any other approach.
If you want to learn more about this approach, let me know and I'll
write up the steps and add a few screen shots. 

______________
Gregory Georges
www.reallyusefulpage.com 
Really Useful Content, Inc.
Chapel Hill, North Carolina

> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Vitollo [mailto:jvlist@...] 
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 11:21 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: B&W Conversion Workflow
> 
> 
> > Anyway, sorry for the long sob story but I'm wondering how 
> do you get
> > to your B&W image?  Do you do it all in grayscale and then 
> convert to 
> > RGB or do you keep it in RGB all the way?
> > Tom Husband
> 
> Have you tried converting RGB to Lab then turn off A and B 
> channel and work with the Lightness channel - works most of 
> the time for me. But it seems your problem is more on the output side?

Hi Tom,

There are quite a few good tools out there for converting your D100 RGB
files to grayscale; B&W Pro from www.imagingfactory.com, PS actions from
www.fredmiranda.com, and the B&W conversion set of the www.pixelgenius.com
toolset. But, as you would expect all the "magic" these tools perform
you can do in Photoshop, though not necessarily as quickly. However, don't
mean to burst your bubble but I, personally, have never been able to get
a B&W image from any of my Canon D30 files that really satisfies me. Maybe
I've been shooting large format B&W film for far too many years, but I
find the conversions of my digital files simply lacking...lacking contrast,
lacking tonality, highlights that don't sing, weak shadows, etc. It's not
like I don't
know what I'm doing in PS! I've produced beautiful, IMHO, output from 4x5
and 8x10 scans...just can't seem to get my purely digital stuff to any level
even close. It sounds like you may be having a similar experience with your
D100 files. I'm pretty sure Jerry Olsen converts his D60 files to B&W and
has posted on this forum that he is happy with 'em so, maybe, he'll have
something more productive to offer.

Good luck and, please, let me know if you find an acceptable workflow. For
now, I'll continue exposing and processing film for B&W work.

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message -----

From: "Tom Husband" <thusband@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 8:49 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] B&W Conversion Workflow


> I'm looking for a good work flow converting my D100 NEF's to B&W.  I
> can get to B&W easy enough and the final print is nice but they're
> missing some depth and contrast.  After tweaking in Capture 3 I
> convert to TIF and open in Photoshop 6 where I've used simple convert
> to grayscale, curves, etc. and the little more involved channel
> mixer.  I've tried creating layers of hue and saturation per Ian
> Lyons and a few other methods.  I'm using the VM inks with Paul
> Roark's curves right now but have tried the Boley and Krebs curves
> too.  I've tried the VM-S but haven't tried the FS inks yet.  I print
> to a 1280.  I have an 870 too with MIS dye ink and can get real nice
> Black Only prints.  The only thing is I don't like the dots.
>
> I keep working on the front end of taking decent images and maybe
> that's where I should concentrate.  I'm doing lots of reading and
> have hundreds of test images with different settings, paper, drivers,
> etc.  It's becoming an obsession with me.  I think about this stuff
> all the time but don't get me wrong I love it and know I can only get
> better.  When I started with color four or five years ago I went
> through the same pain with inks, color management and such but I
> think B&W is even more of a challenge.
>
> Anyway, sorry for the long sob story but I'm wondering how do you get
> to your B&W image?  Do you do it all in grayscale and then convert to
> RGB or do you keep it in RGB all the way?  There're a bunch of plug-
> ins out there for converting to B&W but they can't do much more than
> Photoshop right?  Is Piezography the answer?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tom Husband

Thanks all for your suggestions and hints.  All were good and now I 
have some investigating to do.  Maybe Alan has it though.  Digital 
B&W is not quite up to the level of film yet.  I'm not ready to 
accept that now but a year from now?

So again, Tim, Kip, Charles, John, Gregory and Alan, thank for your 
help.  This group amazes me all the time.

Tom

what I am finding really interesting to play with, is take some of my 8x10
Astia scans and convert them to B&W using the imagingfactory bw filter.

With the right settings I'm getting some really nice looking B&W LF images
out of it.

then printed up on the 1160 - gee - it was shot on FP4  :-)

tim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Husband [mailto:thusband@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 17, 2003 5:03 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] B&W Conversion Workflow
>
>
> Thanks all for your suggestions and hints.  All were good and now I
> have some investigating to do.  Maybe Alan has it though.  Digital
> B&W is not quite up to the level of film yet.  I'm not ready to
> accept that now but a year from now?
>
> So again, Tim, Kip, Charles, John, Gregory and Alan, thank for your
> help.  This group amazes me all the time.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
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There was interesting talk of late about wet film mounting on a 
flatbed scanner, namely the Epson 3200.

In the search for supplies i've come across two items for which i'd 
like some clarification.

1- Tesa mounting tape is not inexpensive. However, there is 3M 256 
and 3M 202 masking tape which is sold by as a scanner mounting 
product. 

2- On the Mediastreet site: "Ultra-Base is a specially coated plastic 
sheet that is used to mount transparencies on the scanner drum, or 
flatbed scanner, to eliminate the need for oil mounting"

(for scans with enlargements over 700-800% you can use Mylar GA-10, a 
pure, crystal clear, untreated polyester)

Any one have experience with these two products?

Cheers,
Andre