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Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Julian Thomas

Steve - forgive me if I've misunderstood, are you saying that merely loading
the new black with all inks (FS too) allows to print on RC?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 2:58 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks


> Maybe you should ignore the whining and try it, or at least try a
> cart of the black. If the black works with out too much trouble, the
> rest won't be a problem, since they are all more diluted than the
> black. It's worth the effort, because the fade resistance is much
> better, and you now have the option of printing on RC papers by
> switching only the black cart.
>
> Steve Karafyllakis
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry in
> Houston <glewis4457@y...> wrote:
> > I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> > 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> > severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> > just go with the old ink sets.
> >
> > Jerry in Houston
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>
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>

RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Paul Roark

The Eboni black is not RC compatible.

MIS has a very reasonably-priced MIS 7600 Photo Black (UC clone) for RC
papers.  Epson Archival black gives a bit higher dmax on some papers.

The Ultra Tone B&W midtones are all RC paper compatible, unlike the FS or
old vm inksets.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
______________________________________
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:05 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks


Steve - forgive me if I've misunderstood, are you saying that merely loading
the new black with all inks (FS too) allows to print on RC?

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 2:58 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks


> Maybe you should ignore the whining and try it, or at least try a
> cart of the black. If the black works with out too much trouble, the
> rest won't be a problem, since they are all more diluted than the
> black. It's worth the effort, because the fade resistance is much
> better, and you now have the option of printing on RC papers by
> switching only the black cart.
>
> Steve Karafyllakis
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry in
> Houston <glewis4457@y...> wrote:
> > I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> > 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> > severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> > just go with the old ink sets.
> >
> > Jerry in Houston
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Lets ask the question. How many people on this list have had severe
banding problems with Eboni?

I know that there are at LEAST 3 people besides myself, have had the
exact same problem. Many others have reported no problems. 

Jerry





Jerry in Houston wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> just go with the old ink sets.
> 
> Jerry in Houston
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Julian Thomas

Thanks Paul.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 4:50 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks


> The Eboni black is not RC compatible.
>
> MIS has a very reasonably-priced MIS 7600 Photo Black (UC clone) for RC
> papers.  Epson Archival black gives a bit higher dmax on some papers.
>
> The Ultra Tone B&W midtones are all RC paper compatible, unlike the FS or
> old vm inksets.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> ______________________________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Julian Thomas [mailto:julianthomas@...]
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 7:05 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks
>
>
> Steve - forgive me if I've misunderstood, are you saying that merely
loading
> the new black with all inks (FS too) allows to print on RC?
>
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 2:58 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks
>
>
> > Maybe you should ignore the whining and try it, or at least try a
> > cart of the black. If the black works with out too much trouble, the
> > rest won't be a problem, since they are all more diluted than the
> > black. It's worth the effort, because the fade resistance is much
> > better, and you now have the option of printing on RC papers by
> > switching only the black cart.
> >
> > Steve Karafyllakis
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry in
> > Houston <glewis4457@y...> wrote:
> > > I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> > > 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> > > severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> > > just go with the old ink sets.
> > >
> > > Jerry in Houston
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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> page.
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jeff Korte

Jerry,

IF my latest VM prefilled carts contained the new eboni in the 
black positon, I can say that there has been no clogging issues 
here. (MIS states that Eboni was replacing all the black position 
inks beginning March 1st. My VM set was ordered on the 3rd.) I 
have no way of knowing what black is in my new VM carts other 
than the date ordered.

I'm hoping to switch to the new inks and run them in my 
nomorecarts CIS.

Jeff


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry 
Olson <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Lets ask the question. How many people on this list have had 
severe
> banding problems with Eboni?
> 
> I know that there are at LEAST 3 people besides myself, have 
had the
> exact same problem. Many others have reported no problems. 
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jerry in Houston wrote:
> > 
> > I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> > 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> > severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> > just go with the old ink sets.
> > 
> > Jerry in Houston
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being 
updated. The page is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences 
by visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks 
or &amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives 
and the various resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:
> Steve - forgive me if I've misunderstood, are you saying that 
merely loading
> the new black with all inks (FS too) allows to print on RC?

Good grief no! I am saying that if the black doesn't clog on you, 
you probably won't have trouble with the rest of the Ultratones, in 
which case switching over completely would give you the option of 
printing on RC paper. Of course you would need to use the 
Photoblack, so if that's your main interest, you might want to test 
that for clogging instead of the  Eboni.
> 
>> > Maybe you should ignore the whining and try it, or at least try 
a
> > cart of the black. If the black works with out too much trouble, 
the
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > rest won't be a problem, since they are all more diluted than the
> > black. It's worth the effort, because the fade resistance is much
> > better, and you now have the option of printing on RC papers by
> > switching only the black cart.
> >
> > Steve Karafyllakis
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry in
> > Houston <glewis4457@y...> wrote:
> > > I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> > > 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> > > severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> > > just go with the old ink sets.
> > >
> > > Jerry in Houston

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by donbga

Jerry,
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Lets ask the question. How many people on this list have had severe
> banding problems with Eboni?
> 
> I know that there are at LEAST 3 people besides myself, have had the
> exact same problem. Many others have reported no problems. 
> 

I've been using the Eboni inks for about 2 weeks in the FSN inkset on 
my 1160 using the ConeTech plugin and MIS CFS carts. I've had no 
banding or clogs.

So far I've probably printed about 25 13x19 prints and about 40 8x10s.

I have had to do a head cleaning once due to a noozle clog but it 
wasn't the black ink that was giving the problem. And I only lost one 
segment and after printing most of the day. However that was readily 
apparent with the ConeTech driver.

Before switching to the MIS FSN-Eboni inkset I used a complete Epson 
cartridge set making various quadtone and color prints. During the 
time I was using the Epson inks I had NO problems with my printer so 
I have verified that my printer is okay. I was using MIS VM quads for 
about a year and I really started having clogging and banding 
problems after about 9 months.

So if the problems repeat themselves I will know that either the inks 
and/or carts are the problem and I will use another product 
(PiezoTone). I know the inks are very expensive compared to the MIS 
product but wasted ink, time and paper add up over a period of time.

If I change products I will probably upgrade to the ICC profiles 
offered by Cone (if they are ever released).

I will say at this point in time I have no overt consumer loyalty to 
any supplier or product line if it fails to work reasonably but not 
perfectly. I've been using computers too long to know that they will 
not work correctly 100% of the time, especially when one is using a 
consumer grade product such as a desktop printer.

And while I'm on my soap box I am really tired of reading self 
centered rants by users directed to Epson, Jon Cone, MIS or anyone 
else. If one doesn't like a product then don't use it. I think long 
time participants of those lists know who the people I am speaking 
about.

That is not to say however a normal discussion of problems or 
frustrations shouldn't take place. That is the purpose of this list. 
Isn't it?

My 2 cents worth,

Don Bryant

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Lets ask the question. How many people on this list have had severe
> banding problems with Eboni?
> 
> I know that there are at LEAST 3 people besides myself, have had 
the
> exact same problem. Many others have reported no problems. 
> 
> Jerry
> 
No, lets not ask the question, not yet anyway. Somewhere on the MIS 
page announcing beta testing and asking for testers there is a 
stipulation that you NOT POST opinions and results until the test 
period is up. Did you miss that Jerry? Most people are not getting 
into this fray because they apparently are willing to stand by the 
conditions required to get the new VMs ASAP. It is grossly unfair to 
MIS and Paul Roark to create such a panic without giving them a 
chance to assess the problem and work out a solution if one is 
needed. So why don't we just do that, yes?

Steve Karafyllakis

> 
> 
> 
> Jerry in Houston wrote:
> > 
> > I was getting ready to invest in a quad ink kit for my
> > 1280, but now I am holding back due to the reports of
> > severe clogging with the new inks.  Maybe I should m
> > just go with the old ink sets.
> > 
> > Jerry in Houston
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, 
Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page 
is at:
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the 
subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
&amp;amp;quot;flames.&amp;amp;quot;
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
various resources on the homepage.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to 
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Doug Fisher

Just for clarification, aren't the Eboni black and the Ultratone
(Ultrachrome) VM black inks two separate inks/ink types?

Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Eboni is the new black
that replaces the black in all other ink systems EXCEPT the Ultratone VM
inks.  The two types of black offered as part of the Ultratone VM system are
different from Eboni and come in two separate formulas - one for matte and
one for gloss/semigloss.

There seems to be a lot of comments that don't make this distinction and it
is leading to some incorrect perceptions (some unfair) for the different
inks.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Doug Fisher

>>Just for clarification, aren't the Eboni black and the Ultratone
(Ultrachrome) VM black inks two separate inks/ink types?<<

After rereading the MIS text, I believe my assumption was wrong.  It does
look as those the matte black is also being called Eboni, so it must be the
same.  I stand corrected!

Doug

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Veniamin Kostitsin

well ... perhaps it is that great us craftmanship then, that clogs the 
nozzles. still .. if you had an undisclosure agreement there is no excuse 
for breaking it. if it was me you had an agreement with i would sue your 
ass off.


On Mon, 24 Mar 2003 15:17:14 -0600, Jerry Olson <jerryolson@...> wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> But the problem does seem to persist with all brands of inks and
> cartridges. It is entirely possible that a company can get a bad batch
> of cartridges. It has happened with at least 3 of the sellers I know of.
> I wish I could be certain that before I get cartridges that they were
> NOT made in China, Taiwan, or Korea. I've had nothing but problems with
> ANYthing made in these three countries. Their overall quality on most of
> their products is abysmal. Especially Electronics. They don't last long,
> and workmanship is not up to professional standards, in a lot of cases,
> and they don't use the best quality parts during manufacture.
>
> Trouble is, you don't have a choice anymore. Anything you might want to
> get in small appliances, or electronics is made in one of those 3
> countries. About 80 percent of KMart products, for instance. I'm sure
> there are exceptions, but I'd still like the choice.
>
> In my case, I know it is not the printer that is at fault, since it
> prints perfect prints, and nozzle patterns with Epson in. (Also made in
> China, of course, so there are exceptions).
>
> I've been using MIS VM inks since they came out, and haven't had any
> real serious problems. Most of the time, a few head cleanings will do
> it. But in the case of Eboni, thats when all the problems started, Right 
> now, I have a current Set of MIS VM inks, and about half a set of
> older VM inks, (in date). This afternoon, I'm going to try and draw
> about 60 CCS of ink through the bottom of all the cartridges, so that
> they get really saturated with ink. Then I'll let the unit sit
> overnight, and will install it into the printer tomorrow. This will be
> the last time I try a CIS, unless the dealer will offer a 100 percent
> money back guarantee within 30 days if it doesn't work. I'm not going to
> clean and refill a unit again. It takes WAY too much time and is
> extremely frustrating.
>
> Jerry
>
>> I've been using the Eboni inks for about 2 weeks in the FSN inkset on
>> my 1160 using the ConeTech plugin and MIS CFS carts. I've had no
>> banding or clogs.
>
> Thats with the FSN inkset. I have been using the VM, but it shouldn't
> make any difference.
>
> I had a couple of 1160 printers that worked very well with MIS VM. I had
> about 6 months printing without a single problem a couple years ago,
> using MIS VM inks. Unless they have changed their formulation, I doubt
> it is the inks.
> That leaves the carts.
>
> But how can you tell for certain that a cartridge will not hold a
> vacuum? When I was pulling the vacuum and filling the last set of
> nomorecarts, everything seemed to be going fine. The vacuum seemed to be
> pulling fine, a little hard to get the pump all the way to 35 10 times,
> If it weren't holding, you'd think the vacuum plunger would pull very
> easily, but it didn't.
>
> However, considering that 3 chambers have no ink in them, and the other
> 2 only have ink in the tubes, and it stops just before it gets into the
> cartridges, it doesn't appear any ink is being withdrawn from the
> bottles, which still are almost full. Only the black is down about an
> inch in the K bottle.
>
> Rant over :)
>
> Jerry
>
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Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Hi Don,

But the problem does seem to persist with all brands of inks and
cartridges. It is entirely possible that a company can get a bad batch
of cartridges. It has happened with at least 3 of the sellers I know of.
I wish I could be certain that before I get cartridges that they were
NOT made in China, Taiwan, or Korea. I've had nothing but problems with
ANYthing made in these three countries. Their overall quality on most of
their products is abysmal. Especially Electronics. They don't last long,
and workmanship is not up to professional standards, in a lot of cases,
and they don't use the best quality parts during manufacture.

Trouble is, you don't have a choice anymore. Anything you might want to
get in small appliances, or electronics is made in one of those 3
countries. About 80 percent of KMart products, for instance. I'm sure
there are exceptions, but I'd still like the choice.

In my case, I know it is not the printer that is at fault, since it
prints perfect prints, and nozzle patterns with Epson in. (Also made in
China, of course, so there are exceptions). 

I've been using MIS VM inks since they came out, and haven't had any
real serious problems. Most of the time, a few head cleanings will do
it. But in the case of Eboni, thats when all the problems started, 
Right now, I have a current Set of MIS VM inks, and about half a set of
older VM inks, (in date). This afternoon, I'm going to try and draw
about 60 CCS of ink through the bottom of all the cartridges, so that
they get really saturated with ink. Then I'll let the unit sit
overnight, and will install it into the printer tomorrow. This will be
the last time I try a CIS, unless the dealer will offer a 100 percent
money back guarantee within 30 days if it doesn't work. I'm not going to
clean and refill a unit again. It takes WAY too much time and is
extremely frustrating.

Jerry

> I've been using the Eboni inks for about 2 weeks in the FSN inkset on
> my 1160 using the ConeTech plugin and MIS CFS carts. I've had no
> banding or clogs.

Thats with the FSN inkset. I have been using the VM, but it shouldn't
make any difference.

I had a couple of 1160 printers that worked very well with MIS VM. I had
about 6 months printing without a single problem a couple years ago,
using MIS VM inks.  Unless they have changed their formulation, I doubt
it is the inks.
That leaves the carts.  

But how can you tell for certain that a cartridge will not hold a
vacuum?  When I was pulling the vacuum and filling the last set of
nomorecarts, everything seemed to be going fine. The vacuum seemed to be
pulling fine, a little hard to get the pump all the way to 35 10 times,
If it weren't holding, you'd think the vacuum plunger would pull very
easily, but it didn't.

However, considering that 3 chambers have no ink in them, and the other
2 only have ink in the tubes, and it stops just before it gets into the
cartridges, it doesn't appear any ink is being withdrawn from the
bottles, which still are almost full. Only the black is down about an
inch in the K bottle.

Rant over :)

Jerry

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Steven, I didn't know I was using a beta ink. They said that this ink
(Eboni) would be substituted for ALL their
black inks on March 3 or 4, I believe.  They said that the eboni ink is
what you'd get no matter what black you ordered. I know that the rest of
the set is still in beta, but I've not commented on them, as I've not
used them. I am Not a beta tester for the MIS ink.

Jerry

> No, lets not ask the question, not yet anyway. Somewhere on the MIS
> page announcing beta testing and asking for testers there is a
> stipulation that you NOT POST opinions and results until the test
> period is up. Did you miss that Jerry? 

I'm not a beta tester.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

I Don't know, Doug.  When you order the eboni ink, it doesn't tell you
if its for glossy or matte papers. I've been told that ultratones are
completely compatible with all other MIS inksets. There is a blurb on
the MIS site that says they are changing to eboni black ink, and that
whatever inkset you order as of March 3 will be the eboni black. It
mentions nothing about glossy or matte. I didn't even know there were
two eboni inks.

Jerry

Doug Fisher wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Just for clarification, aren't the Eboni black and the Ultratone
> (Ultrachrome) VM black inks two separate inks/ink types?
> 
> Somebody correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Eboni is the new black
> that replaces the black in all other ink systems EXCEPT the Ultratone VM
> inks.  The two types of black offered as part of the Ultratone VM system are
> different from Eboni and come in two separate formulas - one for matte and
> one for gloss/semigloss.
> s

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

How then, does one know if the eboni ink he has ordered is for glossy or
matte paper? It doesn't say on the bottle.

Jerry

Doug Fisher wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> >>Just for clarification, aren't the Eboni black and the Ultratone
> (Ultrachrome) VM black inks two separate inks/ink types?<<
> 
> After rereading the MIS text, I believe my assumption was wrong.  It does
> look as those the matte black is also being called Eboni, so it must be the
> same.  I stand corrected!
> 
> Doug
>

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Steven, I didn't know I was using a beta ink. They said that this 
ink
> (Eboni) would be substituted for ALL their
> black inks on March 3 or 4, I believe.  They said that the eboni 
ink is
> what you'd get no matter what black you ordered. I know that the 
rest of
> the set is still in beta, but I've not commented on them, as I've 
not
> used them. I am Not a beta tester for the MIS ink.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> > No, lets not ask the question, not yet anyway. Somewhere on the 
MIS
> > page announcing beta testing and asking for testers there is a
> > stipulation that you NOT POST opinions and results until the test
> > period is up. Did you miss that Jerry? 
> 
> I'm not a beta tester.

OK, so if you're not then I suppose the black ink is fair game, but 
some  people who are using it are beta testers, and theyre not in a 
postition to contradict (or reinforce for that matter) your 
experience, so the fair thing would be to excercise some restraint 
until everyone can report in. I for one would very much like to be 
able to test things ASAP, and that's not going to happen if the 
people doing the work don't get a fair shake-they'll simply not 
release anything new until it has been thoroughly tested.

About your CIS problem; you asked if a complete vacuum was 
neccessay, and I don't recall anyone answering that directly. If you 
have any air leaks in the system anywhere except at the vent hole in 
the bottle, the system will not work, and getting new carts won't 
help. Which is not to say you can't have any air in the cart-you 
simply must establish negative pressure in there, or the ink won't 
get drwan into the cart.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Veniamin,

I have had NO disclosure agreement whatsoever. I did NOT know eboni was
a beta ink. Since March 3, that's the only black ink MIS sells.

You needent get so testy.

J

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Veniamin,
> 
> I have had NO disclosure agreement whatsoever. I did NOT know 
eboni was
> a beta ink. Since March 3, that's the only black ink MIS sells.
> 
> You needent get so testy.
> 
> J
Frankly, after all the jingoist crap you just prattled of about 
Chinese..Korean..etc., if I were Asian I'd get testy too; there are 
A LOT of products we use that are Asian in origin, and many of the 
finest ones carry US UK or European brands, so you don't realize 
they're Asian. Do you have an LCD monitor? Virtually all of those 
regardless of brand are made in Korea by the same 2 companies! 

By the way-I just re-read one of your posts; if you are using the 
current (4.35) VM inks, you ARE a beta tester, even if the folks at 
MIS are too polite or easy-going to have pointed that out when you 
bought them!

Steve Karafyllakis

RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Doug Fisher

The photo bottle say PK-photo on it.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2003 4:33 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks


How then, does one know if the eboni ink he has ordered is for glossy or
matte paper? It doesn't say on the bottle.

Jerry

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by donbga

Jerry,

First of all I wasn't directing my comments about complaining at you 
Jerry, I'm sorry if it sounded like that, rather it was directed to 
the usual suspects that post here and other lists.

> But the problem does seem to persist with all brands of inks and
> cartridges. 

You keep mentioning CIS carts which implies to me that they are not 
the same as the CFS carts sold by MIS. Is that correct. MIS 
guarantees the carts. You may want to try CFS carts. I've heard that 
the NoMoreCarts CIS system is better than the MIS but I've never 
tried them.

When you charged the carts did you use the vacuum purge syrenge and 
check valve? This device really helps.

Prior to installing the charged carts did you give perfevt 
performance with OEM inks? (I think you said you did.)

 

>This afternoon, I'm going to try and draw
> about 60 CCS of ink through the bottom of all the cartridges, so 
that
> they get really saturated with ink. Then I'll let the unit sit
> overnight, and will install it into the printer tomorrow. 

This may be the key.

Good luck,

Don Bryant

RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Doug Fisher

>> Somewhere on the MIS page announcing beta testing and asking for testers
there is a
stipulation that you NOT POST opinions and results until the test period is
up. <<

Steve -

I am not doubting you, but I actually have not seen this.    Can you please
post a link?  I looked at their Ultrachrome page and did not see such a
reference.  I am a beta tester and did not see or know about any gag order.
It doesn't say anything on my invoice either.  My impression was that they
would want comments from users.  That is what beta testing is all about -
getting things out of the lab and into the hands of real users to identify
any "real world" differences.

Thanks,
Doug

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Carolyn Frayn

On Monday, March 24, 2003, at 02:48 PM, Steven Karafyllakis wrote:

> By the way-I just re-read one of your posts; if you are using the
> current (4.35) VM inks, you ARE a beta tester, even if the folks at
> MIS are too polite or easy-going to have pointed that out when you
> bought them!
>
> Steve Karafyllakis

Ink beta testers buying their inks? I had to look.

http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/ultratone.html

I just read it quick, but basically... buyer beware, not buyer shut up. 
They selected the Betas, has nothing to do with experimental ink 
purchases now does it.
Carolyn

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

donbga wrote:

> > But the problem does seem to persist with all brands of inks and
> > cartridges.

> You keep mentioning CIS carts which implies to me that they are not
> the same as the CFS carts sold by MIS. Is that correct. 

Yes, MIS carts and CIS carts are NOT the same.

MIS guarantees the carts. You may want to try CFS carts. I've heard that
the NoMoreCarts CIS system is better than the MIS but I've never
tried them.

They used to be the recommended one. I've not tried the MIS however.

> When you charged the carts did you use the vacuum purge syrenge and
> check valve? This device really helps.

Yes. I just tried my OLD vacuum pump, the one that came with my very
first CIS system about 6 years ago. This time everything worked, and the
ink chambers are now full. At least they LOOK full. I'll try them in the
printer tomorrow. If I get banding or clogging, I'm going to draw about
50ccs of ink through the bottom of the cartridges, thus saturating them.
 The new pump that came with the current CIS cartridges was bad.

I wish someone could tell me if a vacuum is needed, IF the cartridges
are totally full of ink, and thus "Primed"  I wouldn't think there
wouldn't be any room for air. Also, if you drew this much ink through
the cartridges, they surely would be saturated with ink.

> Prior to installing the charged carts did you give perfevt
> performance with OEM inks? (I think you said you did.)

Yes. I got a perfect print (many), and a perfect nozzle check.
 
Jerry

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Steve, 

A. I am NOT a beta tester. I am NOT using the 4.3 inks.  I am using the
EBONI BLACK - 4 K ink ONLY. I was using it with the old, normal MIS VM
inks that have been on the market for years.

It was my personal opinion about chinese merchandise. Has NOTHING to do
with people. Has to do with poor quality of the products. It has to do
with the fact that you no longer have a choice that will let you buy
products that are made elsewhere, at least in this part of the country.
I've bought literally HUNDREDS of things made in China because you have
no choice. EVERY one of them has lasted about a tenth as long as it
should have. This includes all the AM radios, garden tools, etc I've
ever purchased that were made in one of the 3 countries I mentioned. 

I never said ALL things made there were no good. I said there are
exceptions. I usually have to buy garden tools, nozzles, water wands,
hand digging tools and things like this every year because of the poor
quality. Sorry you don't agree with me.  Maybe you have never shopped at
Kmart for your garden or electronic stuff. I just would like a CHOICE.

> Frankly, after all the jingoist crap you just prattled of about
> Chinese..Korean..etc., if I were Asian I'd get testy too; 

I'm not speaking of people, only the quality control of a LOT of things
made there.

And I said nothing that would include other Asian Countries. I singled
out three of them because those are the three whose products have proven
to be bad, in MY case.

There are
> A LOT of products we use that are Asian in origin, and many of the
> finest ones carry US UK or European brands, so you don't realize
> they're Asian.

I said that. I know that.  There are exceptions. thats why I said there
were exceptions. 

> By the way-I just re-read one of your posts; if you are using the
> current (4.35) VM inks, you ARE a beta tester, 

I'm NOT using the 4.3 inks!!!!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Steve, all I asked is if anyone who was using the Eboni black had
experienced any problems. Nothing more. The ink has been available on
their site since 3 March. Banding problems can be caused by many things
other than ink.
I have just now traced my own problem to a bad vacuum pump. When I
refilled, using the very first pump I got with my first CIS system about
6 years ago, everything worked fine, I THINK. At least all the ink
chambers are now totally full, as seen by the eye, and the ink in the
bottles went down much further than they did the first time, using the
new pump; also there is now no air that can be seen in any of the ink
tubing. I've examined them closely, and there's not even an air bubble
in there!

I'll let the system set over night before I install it into the printer
and see if it will work now.
>

I'm sorry if I was too soon with my question, but I thought that was the
whole purpose of beta testing, to see what other people's results are? 
I never said a word about the ink being bad. I was simply wondering if
anyone had my problems. In MY case, it was a bad vacuum pump.

> About your CIS problem; you asked if a complete vacuum was
> neccessay, and I don't recall anyone answering that directly. If you
> have any air leaks in the system anywhere except at the vent hole in
> the bottle, the system will not work, 

Assuming the problem was the pump, and there are no air leaks anywhere,
would the fact that the cartridges were totally saturated with ink be
ok, as long as there were no air in the cartridges and no leaks anywhere else?

Jerry

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Chris Hargens

When I bought my bottle of Eboni from MIS it arrived with a note 
telling me that the ink was in Beta and I could not return it if I 
experienced problems. I accepted this, knowing beforehand, as I did, 
that this would be the condition for purchase. I was not told 
anything about not commenting on how well the ink worked. I think it 
goes without saying that one person's results/problems with a product 
do not constitute a large enough sampling to evaluate the product; 
however, one person's experiencem when shared, can be useful in 
helping others avoid problems with the product or problems related to 
using/installing the product. My experience with the Eboni ink has 
been trouble-free; others...

Chris 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
> Steve, all I asked is if anyone who was using the Eboni black had
> experienced any problems. Nothing more. The ink has been available 
on
> their site since 3 March. Banding problems can be caused by many 
things
> other than ink.
> I have just now traced my own problem to a bad vacuum pump. When I
> refilled, using the very first pump I got with my first CIS system 
about
> 6 years ago, everything worked fine, I THINK. At least all the ink
> chambers are now totally full, as seen by the eye, and the ink in 
the
> bottles went down much further than they did the first time, using 
the
> new pump; also there is now no air that can be seen in any of the 
ink
> tubing. I've examined them closely, and there's not even an air 
bubble
> in there!
> 
> I'll let the system set over night before I install it into the 
printer
> and see if it will work now.
> >
> 
> I'm sorry if I was too soon with my question, but I thought that 
was the
> whole purpose of beta testing, to see what other people's results 
are? 
> I never said a word about the ink being bad. I was simply wondering 
if
> anyone had my problems. In MY case, it was a bad vacuum pump.
> 
> > About your CIS problem; you asked if a complete vacuum was
> > neccessay, and I don't recall anyone answering that directly. If 
you
> > have any air leaks in the system anywhere except at the vent hole 
in
> > the bottle, the system will not work, 
> 
> Assuming the problem was the pump, and there are no air leaks 
anywhere,
> would the fact that the cartridges were totally saturated with ink 
be
> ok, as long as there were no air in the cartridges and no leaks 
anywhere else?
> 
> Jerry

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-24 by Jerry Olson

Hi Chris,

That's good to hear. I traced my current problem to a bad vacuum pump.
It's always something. It probably isn't the ink. I just don't know
about the last CIS system, but this current one has the bad pump, and my
old pump  worked.

Jerry

Chris Hargens wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> When I bought my bottle of Eboni from MIS it arrived with a note
> telling me that the ink was in Beta and I could not return it if I
> experienced problems. I accepted this, knowing beforehand, as I did,
> that this would be the condition for purchase. I was not told
> anything about not commenting on how well the ink worked. I think it
> goes without saying that one person's results/problems with a product
> do not constitute a large enough sampling to evaluate the product;
> however, one person's experiencem when shared, can be useful in
> helping others avoid problems with the product or problems related to
> using/installing the product. My experience with the Eboni ink has
> been trouble-free; others...
> 
> Chris
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> >
> > Steve, all I asked is if anyone who was using the Eboni black had
> > experienced any problems. Nothing more. The ink has been available
> on
> > their site since 3 March. Banding problems can be caused by many
> things
> > other than ink.
> > I have just now traced my own problem to a bad vacuum pump. When I
> > refilled, using the very first pump I got with my first CIS system
> about
> > 6 years ago, everything worked fine, I THINK. At least all the ink
> > chambers are now totally full, as seen by the eye, and the ink in
> the
> > bottles went down much further than they did the first time, using
> the
> > new pump; also there is now no air that can be seen in any of the
> ink
> > tubing. I've examined them closely, and there's not even an air
> bubble
> > in there!
> >
> > I'll let the system set over night before I install it into the
> printer
> > and see if it will work now.
> > >
> >
> > I'm sorry if I was too soon with my question, but I thought that
> was the
> > whole purpose of beta testing, to see what other people's results
> are?
> > I never said a word about the ink being bad. I was simply wondering
> if
> > anyone had my problems. In MY case, it was a bad vacuum pump.
> >
> > > About your CIS problem; you asked if a complete vacuum was
> > > neccessay, and I don't recall anyone answering that directly. If
> you
> > > have any air leaks in the system anywhere except at the vent hole
> in
> > > the bottle, the system will not work,
> >
> > Assuming the problem was the pump, and there are no air leaks
> anywhere,
> > would the fact that the cartridges were totally saturated with ink
> be
> > ok, as long as there were no air in the cartridges and no leaks
> anywhere else?
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> 
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[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Doug Fisher" 
<dougfisher@e...> wrote:
> >> Somewhere on the MIS page announcing beta testing and asking 
for testers
> there is a
> stipulation that you NOT POST opinions and results until the test 
period is
> up. <<
> 
> Steve -
> 
> I am not doubting you, but I actually have not seen this.    Can 
you please
> post a link?  I looked at their Ultrachrome page and did not see 
such a
> reference.  I am a beta tester and did not see or know about any 
gag order.
> It doesn't say anything on my invoice either.  My impression was 
that they
> would want comments from users.  That is what beta testing is all 
about -
> getting things out of the lab and into the hands of real users to 
identify
> any "real world" differences.
> 
> Thanks,
> Doug

Hmmm... Well it appears to be my turn to eat crow- I can't find it 
either, I think I may have juxtaposed the MIS statement with 
something Jon Cone said or posted... nevertheless, I still feel the 
level of hysteria created by several simultaneous threads whinning 
about it is not that helpful, and pretty damn boring for the rest of 
us, so lets try to keep the 'reports' short, sweet, & factual, ok.?

Steve Karafyllakis

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
> Steve, all I asked is if anyone who was using the Eboni black had
> experienced any problems. Nothing more. The ink has been available 
on
> their site since 3 March. Banding problems can be caused by many 
things
> other than ink.
> I have just now traced my own problem to a bad vacuum pump. When I
> refilled, using the very first pump I got with my first CIS system 
about
> 6 years ago, everything worked fine, I THINK. At least all the ink
> chambers are now totally full, as seen by the eye, and the ink in 
the
> bottles went down much further than they did the first time, using 
the
> new pump; also there is now no air that can be seen in any of the 
ink
> tubing. I've examined them closely, and there's not even an air 
bubble
> in there!
> 
> I'll let the system set over night before I install it into the 
printer
> and see if it will work now.
> >
> 
> I'm sorry if I was too soon with my question, but I thought that 
was the
> whole purpose of beta testing, to see what other people's results 
are? 
> I never said a word about the ink being bad. I was simply 
wondering if
> anyone had my problems. In MY case, it was a bad vacuum pump.
> 
> > About your CIS problem; you asked if a complete vacuum was
> > neccessay, and I don't recall anyone answering that directly. If 
you
> > have any air leaks in the system anywhere except at the vent 
hole in
> > the bottle, the system will not work, 
> 
> Assuming the problem was the pump, and there are no air leaks 
anywhere,
> would the fact that the cartridges were totally saturated with ink 
be
> ok, as long as there were no air in the cartridges and no leaks 
anywhere else?
> 
> Jerry

Jerry;

My apologies for jumping on you about the beta testing, I was wrong 
about posting ; but the fact that you have now traced your problem 
to a bad pump uderscores my point; you have a lot of people really 
worried about trying the ink, without really knowing for sure that 
was the problem. As for the vacuum in the CIS; it doesn't matter if 
there is a little air at the top of the cart, as long as there's a 
solid pool of ink around the intake nozzle, and there are no air 
leaks, so that new ink gets sucked in as the printer puts it out. 
The vacuum created by the head putting out ink is probably very 
weak, so not only is it important not to lose vacuum, you need to 
have the bottles at the right level also, to avoid head starvation.

Best luck, I hope the CIS finally gets going properly for you.

Steve Karafyllakis

RE: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Doug Fisher

>>The vacuum created by the head putting out ink is probably very weak, so
not only is it important not to lose vacuum, you need to have the bottles at
the right level also, to avoid head starvation.<<

That reminds me of something else I hadn't paid attention to until I
recently re-read the installation instructions.  When you split the end of
the tube ribbon into individual tubes to place inside the bottle, you don't
want them so long that they form a huge loop that rises higher than the
printer.  I think what they mean is to adjust the tubing so that it rises
out of the bottles and then only rises as high as needed to clear the top of
the printer opening.  The easy way to "adjust" this is to move your rack of
ink bottles farther away from your printer or farther toward the back of
your printer.  Yeah it is a basic thing, but as Steve pointed out, the print
head vacuum is pretty weak and every little bit might help - especially for
the people who seem to be having problems.

[Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Vincent Orlando

Jerry, I have to agree with you about products made in China. Most 
are junk. I spend a lot of time looking at "Made in" if it is China I 
put it back and keep looking only buying if I can't find it made 
somewhere else and I really need it.

Vinny
http://www.wulfsden.com


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Steve, 
> 
> A. I am NOT a beta tester. I am NOT using the 4.3 inks.  I am using 
the
> EBONI BLACK - 4 K ink ONLY. I was using it with the old, normal MIS 
VM
> inks that have been on the market for years.
> 
> It was my personal opinion about chinese merchandise. Has NOTHING 
to do
> with people. Has to do with poor quality of the products. It has to 
do
> with the fact that you no longer have a choice that will let you buy
> products that are made elsewhere, at least in this part of the 
country.
> I've bought literally HUNDREDS of things made in China because you 
have
> no choice. EVERY one of them has lasted about a tenth as long as it
> should have. This includes all the AM radios, garden tools, etc I've
> ever purchased that were made in one of the 3 countries I 
mentioned. 
> 
> I never said ALL things made there were no good. I said there are
> exceptions. I usually have to buy garden tools, nozzles, water 
wands,
> hand digging tools and things like this every year because of the 
poor
> quality. Sorry you don't agree with me.  Maybe you have never 
shopped at
> Kmart for your garden or electronic stuff. I just would like a 
CHOICE.
> 
> > Frankly, after all the jingoist crap you just prattled of about
> > Chinese..Korean..etc., if I were Asian I'd get testy too; 
> 
> I'm not speaking of people, only the quality control of a LOT of 
things
> made there.
> 
> And I said nothing that would include other Asian Countries. I 
singled
> out three of them because those are the three whose products have 
proven
> to be bad, in MY case.
> 
> There are
> > A LOT of products we use that are Asian in origin, and many of the
> > finest ones carry US UK or European brands, so you don't realize
> > they're Asian.
> 
> I said that. I know that.  There are exceptions. thats why I said 
there
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> were exceptions. 
> 
> > By the way-I just re-read one of your posts; if you are using the
> > current (4.35) VM inks, you ARE a beta tester, 
> 
> I'm NOT using the 4.3 inks!!!!!

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Barry Kelsall

I can say that the cause of banding/clogging/overspray is not always obvious
at all. At my day job we had an 1160 that developed a serious magenta
overspray problem. Luckily we had a second unit, & on a whim, I switched the
inking systems. Amazingly, the overspray problem moved to the 2nd machine.
Normally this would be blamed on a bad print head, but obviously this had
something to do with the cart/inking system.

As to the blanket condemnation of Taiwan etc. - we also have laser engraving
machines, of which we have purchased  three since 1994. The first two were
from two US manufacturers costing about $22K ea. The third we purchased two
years ago for $18K - made in Taiwan. It has more features, a larger
engraving table, a higher quality finish, easier access, a more compact
footprint, better quality & faster output, is showing less wear on the
motion system, and has had less than 10% of the downtime we experienced with
the US products...
-BK

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Jerry Olson

Thanks Vincent. At least one other person has noticed.  I'm old enough 
to know what real quality is and was, and
believe me, that quality is not often available today unless you are 
filthy rich.

Jerry

Vincent Orlando wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Jerry, I have to agree with you about products made in China. Most 
> are junk. I spend a lot of time looking at "Made in" if it is China I 
> put it back and keep looking only buying if I can't find it made 
> somewhere else and I really need it.
> 
> Vinny
> http://www.wulfsden.com
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Olson 
> <jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> 
>>Steve, 
>>
>>A. I am NOT a beta tester. I am NOT using the 4.3 inks.  I am using 
> 
> the
> 
>>EBONI BLACK - 4 K ink ONLY. I was using it with the old, normal MIS 
> 
> VM
> 
>>inks that have been on the market for years.
>>
>>It was my personal opinion about chinese merchandise. Has NOTHING 
> 
> to do
> 
>>with people. Has to do with poor quality of the products. It has to 
> 
> do
> 
>>with the fact that you no longer have a choice that will let you buy
>>products that are made elsewhere, at least in this part of the 
> 
> country.
> 
>>I've bought literally HUNDREDS of things made in China because you 
> 
> have
> 
>>no choice. EVERY one of them has lasted about a tenth as long as it
>>should have. This includes all the AM radios, garden tools, etc I've
>>ever purchased that were made in one of the 3 countries I 
> 
> mentioned. 
> 
>>I never said ALL things made there were no good. I said there are
>>exceptions. I usually have to buy garden tools, nozzles, water 
> 
> wands,
> 
>>hand digging tools and things like this every year because of the 
> 
> poor
> 
>>quality. Sorry you don't agree with me.  Maybe you have never 
> 
> shopped at
> 
>>Kmart for your garden or electronic stuff. I just would like a 
> 
> CHOICE.
> 
>>>Frankly, after all the jingoist crap you just prattled of about
>>>Chinese..Korean..etc., if I were Asian I'd get testy too; 
>>
>>I'm not speaking of people, only the quality control of a LOT of 
> 
> things
> 
>>made there.
>>
>>And I said nothing that would include other Asian Countries. I 
> 
> singled
> 
>>out three of them because those are the three whose products have 
> 
> proven
> 
>>to be bad, in MY case.
>>
>>There are
>>
>>>A LOT of products we use that are Asian in origin, and many of the
>>>finest ones carry US UK or European brands, so you don't realize
>>>they're Asian.
>>
>>I said that. I know that.  There are exceptions. thats why I said 
> 
> there
> 
>>were exceptions. 
>>
>>
>>>By the way-I just re-read one of your posts; if you are using the
>>>current (4.35) VM inks, you ARE a beta tester, 
>>
>>I'm NOT using the 4.3 inks!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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> 
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> 
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-25 by Jerry Olson

Barry, I was speaking of the everyday items you buy for household use! 
Nothing more. Also, just giving my
personal opinon of the results I have had with such items. I know there 
are may high quality items made
in China & Taiwan. I was just speaking of the low level things you buy 
for every day use.

Jer

Did you ever correct the overspray problem?  I've had this on 2 printers 
also.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-26 by Ken Carney

I think credit should be given to the Chinese for the Holga, a real advance
in photography (IMHO).  Several of mine have had rough use, even to Death
Valley in 135 degree heat where the 4x5 emulsion melted, but the Holgas held
up.  Also, if you are a hunter or shooter, check out Norinco (Chinese North
Industries Corporation), huge importer of firearms and ammunition into the
U.S.  Not pretty, but they will probably last forever, at least one gauge of
quality even if they're not works of art.  Can't really think of anything
else to commend.

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com


----- Original Message -----
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks


> Thanks Vincent. At least one other person has noticed.  I'm old enough
> to know what real quality is and was, and
> believe me, that quality is not often available today unless you are
> filthy rich.
>
> Jerry

Re: [Digital BW] Re: New Eboni inks

2003-03-26 by Barry Kelsall

> Did you ever correct the overspray problem?  I've had this on 2 printers
> also.
>

Swapping the CIS/CFS units corrected the problem in the first machine. The
other is about to get boxed & shipped to Ardito's for an overhaul, as it
also suffers from vertical banding. Upon it's return it is getting new ink &
new carts, so I expect the overspray will be gone.

I have to say I was really amazed that this overspray came from the cart! I
can only guess that it is not sealing correctly, or that something happened
to the ink itself. But the machine that originally exhibited the problem is
now performing flawlessly with the other inking unit installed.
-BK

Paper reccomendation

2003-03-26 by Ed Mathews

Hi Group,
     For about a month now I've been learning printing with MIS VM on my
1280 (which seems to clog and unclog just often enough to make me keep
it and not send it back yet).  Up until now I've been using Epson HWM
because it's cheap, and I'm learning.  I've found the highlights are
good, the midtones are fair, and the blacks are very poor.  Overall,
it's just OK.  Also, I still see some matamerism in the form of a very
slight bit of a greenish hue under direct sun and some fluorescent
lights.
     Can someone recommend a paper that would be a step up, but not a
waste of my money at my early leaning stage?  I'm looking for a deeper
black and to eliminate the slight greenish cast in sunlight.

Thanks,
Ed
http://lightandsilver.com

Re: Paper reccomendation

2003-03-26 by donbga

Ed,

>      Can someone recommend a paper that would be a step up, but not 
a
> waste of my money at my early leaning stage?  I'm looking for a 
deeper
> black and to eliminate the slight greenish cast in sunlight.
>

Use Epson Enhanced Matt instead of the HWM, just set your paper type 
to HWM in the Epson driver media setting. You should have much better 
results with this paper.

As for metamerism you shouldn't have any with this inkset.

My 2 cents,

Don Bryant

Re: [Digital BW] Paper reccomendation

2003-03-26 by Sam A. McCandless

>Hi Group,
>     For about a month now I've been learning printing with MIS VM on my
>1280 (which seems to clog and unclog just often enough to make me keep
>it and not send it back yet).  Up until now I've been using Epson HWM
>because it's cheap, and I'm learning.  I've found the highlights are
>good, the midtones are fair, and the blacks are very poor.  Overall,
>it's just OK.  Also, I still see some matamerism in the form of a very
>slight bit of a greenish hue under direct sun and some fluorescent
>lights.

Epson's Matte Heavyweight is, I believe, best used with their 
dye-based inks. At least I think they meant for it to be.


>Can someone recommend a paper that would be a step up, but not a 
>waste of my money at my early leaning stage?

The rough equivalent for their pigmented inks and, I believe, for 
other pigmented inks was Epson Archival Matte (EAM), which I think is 
still around at least in smaller sizes, and its rebranded 
replacement, Epson Enhanced Matte (EEM), which I get at 
InkJetArt.com. EEM would however be not as much a step up as a step 
over - more appropriate.


>I'm looking for a deeper black

I think EAM/EEM might give you better blacks but possibly without 
satisfying you. In which case, you might want to substitute 
MediaStreet's blacker Generations 4 "enhanced" pigmented (75 percent) 
and dye-based (25 percent) black ink for the VM black. But this might 
require some adjustment of the VM curves.


>and to eliminate the slight greenish cast in sunlight.

This hasn't been a problem for me (no clogs either) with the VM 
Sepia-Neutral inkset on EAM/EEM in my 1160. But I rarely use the 
neutral curve and also might just be overlooking some greenish cast 
in some lights.


>Thanks,
>Ed
>http://lightandsilver.com

Enjoyed your web site.

Sam

Sam McCandless     samcc@...

Re: Paper reccomendation

2003-03-26 by bob_michaels

My opinion comes from printing the same image, same settings,
consecutivelly on different papers. All from using 1280 with VM and
FSN-E inks but on various papers. 

I have to struggle to find any difference between HWM and EEM. And in
most cases, I like the HWM better because my HWM is visibly brighter
than my EEM. (others reach different conclusions)It seems to me that
PhotoRag is very slightly better than either in DMax and shadows. But,
not enough to justify the 5X price. (others have differnt
conclusions)I also have Crane Museo, similar to PhotoRag but a bit too
cream colored for most of my images. 

None of the papers give really good blacks that you'd rave about. I
think that's a function of pigment based inks. You need a ink with
some dye for some improvement there. Jerry Olson raves about Gen 4
black, others worry about the dye component fading.

My suggestion is beg, borrow or steal a few sheets of each. (Buy small
quantities is all else fails) Print the same images on various papers.
Indicate on the BACK what paper it is and put them away for a day or
so. Then pull them out and evaluate the prints honestly before looking
at what paper they are on. Ask someone else to evaluate them if you
can. THEN make a decision which paper is best for your needs. You may
find your needs differ from mainstream thinking on this discussion
group. I ended up printing 98% of my images on HWM, FWIW. 

Also, I don't have a clogging problem. Never had anything that a
cleaning cycle wouldn't cure. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Mathews"
<ed@l...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Hi Group,
>      For about a month now I've been learning printing with MIS VM on my
> 1280 (which seems to clog and unclog just often enough to make me keep
> it and not send it back yet).  Up until now I've been using Epson HWM
> because it's cheap, and I'm learning.  I've found the highlights are
> good, the midtones are fair, and the blacks are very poor.  Overall,
> it's just OK.  Also, I still see some matamerism in the form of a very
> slight bit of a greenish hue under direct sun and some fluorescent
> lights.
>      Can someone recommend a paper that would be a step up, but not a
> waste of my money at my early leaning stage?  I'm looking for a deeper
> black and to eliminate the slight greenish cast in sunlight.
> 
> Thanks,
> Ed
> http://lightandsilver.com

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