Digital BW, The Print

I was curious if anyone is using a scanner as a make-do densitometer. I was
reading Bob Wheeler's article on digital zone system and got to thinking
about this:

http://www.bobwheeler.com/photo/Documents/ZoneDigital.pdf

I'm interested in doing some zone system tweaking and trying out the Bowhaus
software. Probably on the 2200, or whatever comes down the pike in the next
2-3 months.

I see that you can get reasonably priced transmission/reflective step
tablets here:

http://www.stouffer.net/Productlist.htm

Kodak's targets are considerably more expensive.

I realize that densitometers are going (relatively) cheaply on ePay, so
maybe it is moot, but if I can keep one less piece of gear on the desk, I
would be happier. I would be doing this with the Epson 3200.

Anyone have any suggestions?

Also, any of you that are familiar with densitometers, can you give some
recommendations?

Thanks!

Jon

Jon,

the scanner is not a bad idea as long as yours can read well into those deep 
shadows. I have no experience on that myself.

As for densitometer we just had a discussion on the subject in the last few 
days. Maybe you can go back and look at those messages.


Antonis 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jon 
<vze249jf@v...> wrote:
> I was curious if anyone is using a scanner as a make-do densitometer.
....

> I realize that densitometers are going (relatively) cheaply on ePay, so
> maybe it is moot, but if I can keep one less piece of gear on the desk, I
> would be happier. I would be doing this with the Epson 3200.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions?
> 
> Also, any of you that are familiar with densitometers, can you give some
> recommendations?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jon

On Sat, Mar 29, 2003 at 04:08:54PM -0500, Jon wrote:
> I was curious if anyone is using a scanner as a make-do densitometer. I was
> reading Bob Wheeler's article on digital zone system and got to thinking
> about this:
> 
> http://www.bobwheeler.com/photo/Documents/ZoneDigital.pdf
> 
> I'm interested in doing some zone system tweaking and trying out the Bowhaus
> software. Probably on the 2200, or whatever comes down the pike in the next
> 2-3 months.
> 

Wheeler's article is fairly good and I've replicated his work with my own
tests using my LS-4000 as a transmission densitometer.

> I see that you can get reasonably priced transmission/reflective step
> tablets here:
> 
> http://www.stouffer.net/Productlist.htm
> 

I have the stouffer targets and they are fine. You are going to need the
calibrated ones though because that will be the known quantity against
which you test your scanner for accuracy (i.e. how linear the response is).

> 
> I realize that densitometers are going (relatively) cheaply on ePay, so
> maybe it is moot, but if I can keep one less piece of gear on the desk, I
> would be happier. I would be doing this with the Epson 3200.
> 

Epson 3200 - there you may have a problem. I know flatbeds certainly can't
be used as reflective denistometers because of the glass. I've tested this
and you just don't get good results. You may also have trouble with film 
but for the cost of a stouffer wedge it is cerainly worth an experiment.

In the end for me it was more touble than it was worth, especially as I
wanted paper densities also. I ended up buying a Heiland densitometer.

-- 
Tony Terlecki
ajt@...

"Scanner-based profilers are like the talking horse:  what's amazing 
isn't how well they do it, but that they do it all.  We don't 
recommend them."  Bruce Fraser et al., Real World Color Management 
163 (2003)


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jon 
<vze249jf@v...> wrote:
> I was curious if anyone is using a scanner as a make-do 
densitometer. I was
> reading Bob Wheeler's article on digital zone system and got to 
thinking
> about this:
> 
> http://www.bobwheeler.com/photo/Documents/ZoneDigital.pdf
> 
> I'm interested in doing some zone system tweaking and trying out 
the Bowhaus
> software. Probably on the 2200, or whatever comes down the pike in 
the next
> 2-3 months.
> 
> I see that you can get reasonably priced transmission/reflective 
step
> tablets here:
> 
> http://www.stouffer.net/Productlist.htm
> 
> Kodak's targets are considerably more expensive.
> 
> I realize that densitometers are going (relatively) cheaply on 
ePay, so
> maybe it is moot, but if I can keep one less piece of gear on the 
desk, I
> would be happier. I would be doing this with the Epson 3200.
> 
> Anyone have any suggestions?
> 
> Also, any of you that are familiar with densitometers, can you give 
some

> recommendations?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Jon

On Sat, Mar 29, 2003 at 09:44:36PM -0000, Bill Iverson wrote:
> "Scanner-based profilers are like the talking horse:  what's amazing 
> isn't how well they do it, but that they do it all.  We don't 
> recommend them."  Bruce Fraser et al., Real World Color Management 
> 163 (2003)
> 

LOL! That is paraphrasing Dr Johnson I think! I must get that book. 

I think he is talking there about scanners acting as reflective densitometers.
I heartily agree there. One of the biggest problems is that of the incident
light. A proper reflective densitometer should have the source light
falling at 45 degrees to the print surface with the cell/CCD reading at 90
degrees. I don't think flatbeds do this.

Tony

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jon 
> <vze249jf@v...> wrote:
> > I was curious if anyone is using a scanner as a make-do 
> densitometer. I was
> > reading Bob Wheeler's article on digital zone system and got to 
> thinking
> > about this:
> > 
> > http://www.bobwheeler.com/photo/Documents/ZoneDigital.pdf
> > 
> > I'm interested in doing some zone system tweaking and trying out 
> the Bowhaus
> > software. Probably on the 2200, or whatever comes down the pike in 
> the next
> > 2-3 months.
> > 
> > I see that you can get reasonably priced transmission/reflective 
> step
> > tablets here:
> > 
> > http://www.stouffer.net/Productlist.htm
> > 
> > Kodak's targets are considerably more expensive.
> > 
> > I realize that densitometers are going (relatively) cheaply on 
> ePay, so
> > maybe it is moot, but if I can keep one less piece of gear on the 
> desk, I
> > would be happier. I would be doing this with the Epson 3200.
> > 
> > Anyone have any suggestions?
> > 
> > Also, any of you that are familiar with densitometers, can you give 
> some
> > recommendations?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > 
> > Jon
> 

-- 
Tony Terlecki
ajt@...

Hi Tony,
 
> Wheeler's article is fairly good and I've replicated his work with my own
> tests using my LS-4000 as a transmission densitometer.
> 

Ok, I think I'll give it a go.

>> 
>> I realize that densitometers are going (relatively) cheaply on ePay, so
>> maybe it is moot, but if I can keep one less piece of gear on the desk, I
>> would be happier. I would be doing this with the Epson 3200.
>> 
> 
> Epson 3200 - there you may have a problem. I know flatbeds certainly can't
> be used as reflective denistometers because of the glass. I've tested this
> and you just don't get good results. You may also have trouble with film
> but for the cost of a stouffer wedge it is cerainly worth an experiment.
> 

Ah, that is the info I was after.


> In the end for me it was more touble than it was worth, especially as I
> wanted paper densities also. I ended up buying a Heiland densitometer.

Good to know. Thank you for the post.

Jon

Hi Bill,
 
> 
> "Scanner-based profilers are like the talking horse:  what's amazing
> isn't how well they do it, but that they do it all.  We don't
> recommend them."  Bruce Fraser et al., Real World Color Management
> 163 (2003)

Point well taken. <grin>

Thanks,

Jon