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Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by Editor P.O.V. Image Service

Anthony Atkielski wrote:

>Another MF shot on a tripod, cable release, pre-release, as in the previous
>shot:
>
>http://www.mxsmanic.com/street.jpg (entire image)
>http://www.mxsmanic.com/street1.jpg (excerpt at 100% of original scan)
>
>
>  
>
I'd love to see a D30 image that has the same detail in a crop, has the 
same B&W tonal range, and presents at least as much overall 
information.. Just aint' gonna happen with that camera in this lifetime..

Is that an unfair comparison?  Probably..  But that's the game that 
proponents of  film or digital often play...

Point made?
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSONx7x_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by Anthony Atkielski

Keith writes:

> I'd love to see a D30 image that has the same
> detail in a crop, has the same B&W tonal range,
> and presents at least as much overall information.
> Just aint' gonna happen with that camera in
> this lifetime..

It's not going to happen with any single-shot digital camera or back any
time soon.  It might in the future, depending on how much demand there is
for that level of quality in digital photography.

> Is that an unfair comparison?  Probably..  But
> that's the game that proponents of  film or
> digital often play...

Well, they can play any way they want.  All I know is that results like
these are what keep me shooting film, both 35mm and MF.  And film is still
especially nice for black and white.

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by sceptre12345

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. > 
I'd love to see a D30 image that has the same detail in a crop, has 
the 
> same B&W tonal range, and presents at least as much overall 
> information.. Just aint' gonna happen with that camera in this 
lifetime..
> 
> Is that an unfair comparison?  Probably..  But that's the game that 
> proponents of  film or digital often play...
> 
> Point made?
> Keith

Hi Keith,

With all due respects, it seems to me that using a Canon D30 as a 
basis for digital camera comparaison is like using a Kodak Retina as 
a basis for comparaison for film camera.

Following another tread, I have just priced the cost of Kodak Portra 
400bw plus developpment? While I'm not a pro, I would see that for 
more and more pros, it is no longer economical to use film. Besides, 
some pro lab no longer do C-41 developping. I know, 1 hour film lab 
will do it, but the quality is inconsistent. 

As for Jerry Olson, (may God have his soul) whom you refer to in an 
earlier post, if I'm not mistaken he had or was about to sell his 
film cameras and was working with an D60. And we all know how 
demanding Jerry was as to image quality. Btw, while I've never met 
him, I can't begin to count the times when I've remarked to 
myself "Would this be good enough for Jerry"

I still use film cameras but that may change, especially if rumours 
are right about the price of the EOS-10D at coming down to $1000-
$1200 before the end of the year. And I probably won't be asking if 
this or that comparasion was scientific or not. User reports is ok 
with me. I'll just do it, just like when I went for digital pringing. 
(Now using MIS-FNS with the Piezo driver and looking foward to the 
new Eboni black).

Now, should I run for cover ?

Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by Anthony Atkielski

Andre writes:

> Following another tread, I have just priced the
> cost of Kodak Portra 400bw plus developpment?

It works out to about $0.21 per shot.  So after just 38,095 shots, you've
covered the cost of your D1s; 'course, your D1s hasn't even half the
resolution of the scanned film, but that may or may not be important.

> While I'm not a pro, I would see that for
> more and more pros, it is no longer economical
> to use film.

There seems to be a widespread misconception, especially among amateur
photographers, that film costs are the bulk of operating expenses for
photographers.  That is true for _some_ types of photography, but absolutely
not all.  When studio photographers are spending $30,000 a day for a shoot,
the cost of film is hardly even worth accounting for.  Heck, I'm not getting
rich on photography, but two hours of my time are generally worth more than
all the film I'll shoot in a three-day assignment.

I watched a location shoot just a few days ago.  This photographer was
shooting 4x5 (awkward and expensive even by my charitable standards), and
was going quite happily through many shots.  Each shot probably cost several
dollars, but judging by the 15 people he had on his crew, I daresay that he
couldn't care less about the cost of the film itself.  As they say, film is
cheap.  If he could afford to have someone standing there just to load his
camera, and another to make sure the model doesn't mess up her mascara, and
another just to bring soda pop for refreshment, I don't think film is a big
issue.  And the chances of him finding a digital equivalent for 4x5 quality
at any time in the near future are pretty much nil, at any price.

Time savings might be a better argument in favor of digital.  But not all
types of photography are constrained by time.

Editing time is _not_ reduced by digital.  Print costs remain the same.  In
fact, a lot remains the same.  Apart from savings on film and development,
there isn't much that changes.

> Besides, some pro lab no longer do C-41 developping.

Really?  Every pro lab I know of where I live will do C-41, E-6, and black
and white.  Most one-hour labs will do C-41 and E-6; some will also do black
and white.  And all of this in two hours.  But I do live in a big city, and
it's a city that attracts a lot of photography as well.

> I know, 1 hour film lab will do it, but the quality
> is inconsistent.

Nowadays, the quality at decent one-hour labs is extremely constant, and in
fact I know that many pros have development done at one-hour labs,
especially on tight schedules.  Sometimes I do, too, depending on whether
the client is paying or I'm including it in my fee (pro labs charge a lot
more for nearly identical work).

I think what it boils down to is that some prefer digital, and some prefer
film, and among these, a substantial minority feel compelled to find
"objective" reasons why their preference is _better_ than the opposite
preference.  But it's an exercise in futility, because there is no way to
prove either preference best.

I have nothing against digital myself, but I'm a quality freak, and I want
the best quality I can afford, even if it means buying film and taking it to
a lab.  If I had other priorities, maybe I'd shoot more digital.  If I had
more money and time, I might shoot large format instead.  And if digital
ever provides superior quality at equal or lower price, maybe I'll switch
back to digital again.  But I'm not holding my breath.

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by Stan McQueen

At 10:32 AM 5/19/2003, Anthony Atkielski wrote:
>Nowadays, the quality at decent one-hour labs is extremely constant, and in
>fact I know that many pros have development done at one-hour labs,
>especially on tight schedules.  Sometimes I do, too, depending on whether
>the client is paying or I'm including it in my fee (pro labs charge a lot
>more for nearly identical work).

My own experience, in central Utah, is that the one-hour labs have about 
the same quality of processing as the pro labs, probably due to 
standardized chemicals, machinery, etc. However, the difference arises in 
the handling of the film. I often use a one-hour lab when testing a new 
camera, lens, etc., prior to using it for real. And I often find scratches, 
lint, and dirt on the film. That doesn't bother me when I'm testing to make 
sure that the shutter actually fires at something close to the indicated 
value or other simple test, but there's no way I would risk film shot for a 
serious purpose. I either soup it myself or take it to a pro lab.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by sceptre12345

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony 
Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
> Andre writes:
> 
> > Following another tread, I have just priced the
> > cost of Kodak Portra 400bw plus developpment?
> 
> It works out to about $0.21 per shot.  So after just 38,095 shots, 
you've
> covered the cost of your D1s;


You've got a special lab that charges you by the shot ? Average price 
I've seen for 120 film + c41 processing is around $7.25 per film. I 
dont know where you get that $0.21 per shot. Film used to be cheap. 
No longer.


> There seems to be a widespread misconception, especially among 
amateur
> photographers, that film costs are the bulk of operating expenses 
for
> photographers.  That is true for _some_ types of photography, but 
absolutely
> not all.  

I did not say all pros. Some pros barely shoot a couple of propack 
per week, others, in a day and more. Do the math.

When studio photographers are spending $30,000 a day for a shoot,
> the cost of film is hardly even worth accounting for. 

Then please explain the interest in expensive digital backs for mf 
and lf cameras for studio work! There may be other reasons than cost, 
could be convinience ? 


 > > Besides, some pro lab no longer do C-41 developping.
> 
> Really?  Every pro lab I know of where I live will do C-41, E-6, 
and black
> and white.  

One of Toronto largest lab no longer does C-41 processing, only E6 
processing. Demand in C41 has decreased as sales in digital camera 
increased. Btw, Toronto is a city of 4 millions.


> > I know, 1 hour film lab will do it, but the quality
> > is inconsistent.
> 
> Nowadays, the quality at decent one-hour labs is extremely 
constant, 

Really ? Want to hear horror stories about dirt, scratches, lost 
film, lab tech handling processed film with bare hand ? 


> I think what it boils down to is that some prefer digital, and some 
prefer
> film, and among these, a substantial minority feel compelled to find
> "objective" reasons why their preference is _better_ than the 
opposite
> preference.  But it's an exercise in futility, because there is no 
way to
> prove either preference best.

I dont think there any need to prove anything. Film cameras will 
continue to exist for years to come as I see it but it will become 
more and more expensive to shoot with film. Looks at the price of the 
newer films vs old films. There is a trend. But now there is a 
choice: choose the appropriate tools and do the job. I dont know of 
any newspapers that hasn't gone digital. Personally, I havent seen 
the need for digital, yet.
Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-19 by Anthony Atkielski

Andre writes:

> You've got a special lab that charges you
> by the shot ?

No, but I always fill a roll before getting it developed.

> Average price I've seen for 120 film + c41
> processing is around $7.25 per film.  I dont
> know where you get that $0.21 per shot.

Well, I was calculating with 135 film.  That already blows away digital for
image quality, so no need to compare with 120.  I looked up the film price
at B&H, and calculated the development cost as $3, which is what I normally
pay for one-hour service on 135 C-41.  I can get it developed for only a
dollar, but it takes several days and the quality is often iffy.  Pro labs
want about $9.50 for development, but I don't usually need a pro lab.

> Film used to be cheap.

It depends on what other expenses you have.

I spend hours looking for or taking nice pictures sometimes.  The cost of
film pales in comparison with the cost of my labor.

> Some pros barely shoot a couple of propack
> per week, others, in a day and more. Do the
> math.

Well, at three propacks a week, it would take a year and a half to recover
the cost of the 1Ds--about six months longer than the lifetime of the
camera, at current rates of obsolescence.

Besides, some photographers want the best quality photos, not the cheapest.

> Then please explain the interest in expensive
> digital backs for mf and lf cameras for studio work!

Product and catalog work is well adapted to digital.  That doesn't mean that
all studio work is best done digitally.

> There may be other reasons than cost, could be
> convinience ?

Perhaps, but I'm not quite so sure.  Editing takes a long time in
photography, and digital either has no effect on editing time or makes it
even longer, particularly when photographers go wild shooting thousands of
shots.  Somebody still has to sort through all those shots, or they serve no
purpose.

> One of Toronto largest lab no longer does C-41
> processing, only E6 processing.

Gee, someone else just told me today that E-6 is practically dead.  Who's
right?

> Demand in C41 has decreased as sales in digital camera
> increased. Btw, Toronto is a city of 4 millions.

Well, Paris is a city of 11 million, and all the innumerable photo labs in
town are busy with C-41.

> Really ? Want to hear horror stories about dirt,
> scratches, lost film, lab tech handling processed
> film with bare hand ?

No need.  It doesn't happen to me, so I don't worry about it.  Your labs may
be different.

I find a lab that doesn't scratch or dirty my film, and then I stick with
it.

> I dont think there any need to prove anything.

You're expending a lot of effort to not prove anything, then.

> Film cameras will continue to exist for years to
> come as I see it but it will become more and more
> expensive to shoot with film.

As I've said, there are lots of expenses in photography.

> I dont know of any newspapers that hasn't gone
> digital.

If I ever start up a newspaper, I'll keep that in mind.

RE: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-20 by Loris Medici

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anthony Atkielski [mailto:anthony@...] 
> Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 2:40 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example
> ...
> > Demand in C41 has decreased as sales in digital camera 
> increased. Btw, 
> > Toronto is a city of 4 millions.
> 
> Well, Paris is a city of 11 million, and all the innumerable 
> photo labs in town are busy with C-41.

A friend in Tokyo (more than 12 millions population with probably the
highest digital camera sales figures in the world) also says that C-41
is very commonly used and processed everywhere. I was even told that
Fuji just released a new ISO 400 C-41 emulsion named "Venus" - Andre,
according to you what is Fuji's point in releasing a new product in a
soon-to-be-obsolete technology?

Regards,
Loris.

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-20 by Anthony Atkielski

Loris writes:

> I was even told that Fuji just released a new
> ISO 400 C-41 emulsion named "Venus" - Andre,
> according to you what is Fuji's point in releasing
> a new product in a soon-to-be-obsolete technology?

Fuji regularly comes up with new stuff.  They are releasing a Velvia 100F,
too!

But speaking of B&W, is anyone shooting Fuji Neopan Acros?  I've seen prints
from it and I've shot some, but I haven't developed it yet.  It looks very
promising.

Kodak continues to work on new stuff, too, although it doesn't do so as
often as Fuji.

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-20 by sceptre12345

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony 
Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
 
> Well, at three propacks a week, it would take a year and a half to 
recover
> the cost of the 1Ds--about six months longer than the lifetime of 
the
> camera, at current rates of obsolescence.

Anthony,
Add the cost of an mf scanner and you're there a lot faster. Not to 
mention time used for scanning that could be used for 
promoting/selling or whatever. Plus whatever one can get for it's 
film camera gear and the conversion to digital is easier.
Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-20 by Anthony Atkielski

Andre writes:

> Add the cost of an mf scanner and you're
> there a lot faster.

I was talking 35mm.  MF is so far ahead of digital that it's not conceivable
to me that a 35mm digital SLR could substitute for a 6x6 negative.  And
digital backs for MF cost more like $23,000, for just a partial frame, so
the calculations change again.

> Not to mention time used for scanning that
> could be used for promoting/selling or whatever.

Time spent scanning is minimal already.  Most time in front of the PC is
spent editing photos, not scanning them; and that does not go away with
digital.

> Plus whatever one can get for it's
> film camera gear and the conversion
> to digital is easier.

The conversion is also unnecessary.

Re: Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-20 by sceptre12345

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony 
Atkielski" <anthony@a...> wrote:
> Andre writes:
> 
> > Add the cost of an mf scanner and you're
> > there a lot faster.
> 
> I was talking 35mm.  MF is so far ahead of digital that it's not 
conceivable
> to me that a 35mm digital SLR could substitute for a 6x6 negative. 

Well, that's a debate I'm not getting into. I'll leave that one for 
others.

 And
> digital backs for MF cost more like $23,000, for just a partial 
frame, so
> the calculations change again.
> 
> > Not to mention time used for scanning that
> > could be used for promoting/selling or whatever.
> 
> Time spent scanning is minimal already.  Most time in front of the 
PC is
> spent editing photos, not scanning them; and that does not go away 
with
> digital.
> 
> > Plus whatever one can get for it's
> > film camera gear and the conversion
> > to digital is easier.
> 
> The conversion is also unnecessary.

Well Anthony, conversion is already happening wether we like it or 
not. Canon's 1Ds and Kodak 14n are not cameras for the amateurs and 
there are replacing more than 35mm! 
Cheers,
Andre

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-21 by A. Huntley

Keith,

First, please allow me to clarify that I never said the D30 could produce
even acceptable results in B&W...believe me, I've tried over and over and
over again! It just ain't possible to get an acceptable print to my eyes. I
heard and read that Jerry Olsen produced some nice B&W prints from his D60,
but I remain skeptical. True, the D60 has a higher pixel count than my D30,
but I doubt that it could compete against a 35mm analog print let alone a MF
scan such as the example Anthony displayed.

Please also understand that I never intended to be waving the "digital
banner". I have been a mostly LF (some MF) B&W shooter for about 30 years
now. The point of my prior post was, initially, to respond to another list
member looking at his/her options. I was also quite surprised by my result.
It seems, based on a few responses, that I should revisit my film scan and
play around some more. Believe me I really wanted to get good results from
film because, quite frankly, there are some real "pain in the a**" issues
shooting digital.

Now...I wish to thank Anthony for his incredible image (street.jpg). My
Epson Expression 1680 could never produce that kind of quality...guess I
didn't know what a really good film scanner could do. I suspected it since I
have one of Paul Roark's prints hanging on my wall; also scanned with the
Nikon 8000. Me thinks that maybe I should consider one of these scanners and
dust off my MF gear.

BTW, it is an unfair comparison. However, that does not diminish the tonal
beauty and quality of Anthony's image.

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example


>
>
> Anthony Atkielski wrote:
>
> >Another MF shot on a tripod, cable release, pre-release, as in the
previous
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >shot:
> >
> >http://www.mxsmanic.com/street.jpg (entire image)
> >http://www.mxsmanic.com/street1.jpg (excerpt at 100% of original scan)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I'd love to see a D30 image that has the same detail in a crop, has the
> same B&W tonal range, and presents at least as much overall
> information.. Just aint' gonna happen with that camera in this lifetime..
>
> Is that an unfair comparison?  Probably..  But that's the game that
> proponents of  film or digital often play...
>
> Point made?
> Keith

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-21 by Anthony Atkielski

Alan writes:

> True, the D60 has a higher pixel count than my D30,
> but I doubt that it could compete against a 35mm
> analog print let alone a MF scan such as the example
> Anthony displayed.

No electronic camera that uses color filters (matrix or even tri-CCD) is
going to match conventional B&W film for B&W images.  Indeed, no color film
can match B&W film for B&W images, either.  It's not a question of digital
vs. film in this case, it's just a consequence of discarding image
information with a conversion to simply RGB values.  Once that conversion is
made, most of the information necessary to produce very good B&W is gone,
and only inferior simulations are possible by converting RGB back to
grayscale.

Electronic cameras with a single CCD are additionally handicapped by the
fact that their color resolution is very poor.  This degrades any B&W image
prepared therefrom substantially.

> It seems, based on a few responses, that I should
> revisit my film scan and play around some more.

Good film scans look extremely nice, nice enough to surpass digital easily
(IMO).  And good desktop scanners are sufficient to produce these good
scans.  But it does take some trial and error to start producing very nice
scans.  Anyone who scans film for the first time and then compares their raw
scans to digital will be misled into believing that digital is superior.
Nowadays, though, after doing many thousands of scans, each time I look at
one of my scans, I see proof that film is still doing better.

When someone tells me that he did a scan of Velvia or T-Max or something and
it looked worse than digital, all that tells me is that he doesn't know
anything about scanning.  It's true that scanning is not for the impatient.

> Now...I wish to thank Anthony for his incredible
> image (street.jpg). My Epson Expression 1680 could
> never produce that kind of quality...guess I
> didn't know what a really good film scanner could do.

It might be the scanner; it might not.  A lot depends on how you tweak your
scans.  It does help, however, to have a scanner that can handle the largest
density range you can afford, for black and white work, since B&W negatives
have such a broad density range.

Also, you'll want a scanner that can handle far more than 8-bit scans,
otherwise you'll never recover the subtle tonality of B&W film.

Drum scans are ideal, I suppose, although I seem to get good results with my
desktop scanner (I suppose a drum scanner would look still nicer in
comparison, though).

> Me thinks that maybe I should consider one of
> these scanners and dust off my MF gear.

I've been fully satisfied by the LS-8000ED.  It occupies quite a bit of
space on my desk, but it sure does a nice job, and it lets me scan MF, which
was very important.

It would be nice if there were a LS-12000ED or something to scan LF film,
but I don't know if that will ever happen.  If I were to venture into LF,
I'm not exactly sure what I'd do with the results if I didn't have a scanner
to scan them with.

Above all, it seems to me that with a good scanner and a good printer
dedicated to B&W, it should be possible (?) to produce exhibition-quality
prints right in one's own home.  This last point is the question I'm trying
to get answered these days.  I have a bit of space on a table for one more
printer; when and if I have the money, I'd like to dedicate a printer to B&W
for this purpose.

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-24 by A. Huntley

Hi Anthony,

Anthony writes:

> When someone tells me that he did a scan of Velvia or T-Max or something
and
> it looked worse than digital, all that tells me is that he doesn't know
> anything about scanning.  It's true that scanning is not for the
impatient.

True...learning the "ins-and-outs" of scanning takes some time. I've been
scanning MF/LF B&W film for about 3 years now and I'm still finding little
ways that I can produce a better scan. About a year ago, my head was turned
by a simple (and inexpensive) piece of scanning software called Vuescan;
after having used Silverfast Ai for the prior two years. B&W scans using
Vuescan showed much more shadow detail and lower overall contrast; yet local
contrast was maintained. I have not touched Silverfast for B&W since. Color
is a different story.

> Also, you'll want a scanner that can handle far more than 8-bit scans,
> otherwise you'll never recover the subtle tonality of B&W film.

The Epson Expression 1680 generates 12-bit scans.

> I've been fully satisfied by the LS-8000ED.  It occupies quite a bit of
> space on my desk, but it sure does a nice job, and it lets me scan MF,
which
> was very important.

I'm thinking about the Nikon 8000. But, then, again, I'm also thinking I
could just skip the "middle man" (MF) and shoot LF. An 8x10 neg scanned at
1600dpi producing a file that opens in PS as 16-bit grayscale is something
to behold! Clayton has seen a couple of prints from my B&W 8x10 work...I
think he would agree.

> It would be nice if there were a LS-12000ED or something to scan LF film,
> but I don't know if that will ever happen.  If I were to venture into LF,
> I'm not exactly sure what I'd do with the results if I didn't have a
scanner
> to scan them with.

Can you imaging the cost? The Imacon scanner that handles up to 4x5 is
something like $18,000US. Don't know about you, but that's more than a
little bit steep for my budget.

> Above all, it seems to me that with a good scanner and a good printer
> dedicated to B&W, it should be possible (?) to produce exhibition-quality
> prints right in one's own home.  This last point is the question I'm
trying
> to get answered these days.  I have a bit of space on a table for one more
> printer; when and if I have the money, I'd like to dedicate a printer to
B&W
> for this purpose.

Go for it! Those of us trying to tweak every last ounce out of our dedicated
quad setups, and have experienced the frustrations inherent in the process,
will tell you that that is exactly why we do it...when it's right...the
results are second to none!

Alan Huntley

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-25 by Anthony Atkielski

Alan writes:

> True...learning the "ins-and-outs" of scanning
> takes some time. I've been scanning MF/LF B&W film
> for about 3 years now and I'm still finding little
> ways that I can produce a better scan.

It seems to be a long process.  Now I routinely get good scans, but a few
years ago, my scans were quite dismal.  Fortunately I reasoned that it was
my inexperience and not the scanners that produced less than ideal scans,
and time and more experience have proven this to be the case.  I get
excellent scans now, although I imagine I'll do better in the future.

> About a year ago, my head was turned by a simple
> (and inexpensive) piece of scanning software called
> Vuescan ...

I've tried it (I even bought it, as I recall), but it did not seem to offer
any advantage over the NikonScan software.

I usually prefer relatively raw scans, which I then fix in Photoshop.  Apart
from adjusting things that can only be changed in the scanner, like analog
gain, I don't change parameters in the scanner software.

> ... after having used Silverfast Ai for the prior
> two years.

I've heard of Silverfast but never used it.  Isn't that what is furnished
with Imacon scanners?

> I'm thinking about the Nikon 8000. But, then, again,
> I'm also thinking I could just skip the "middle man"
> (MF) and shoot LF.

I've been looking at LF but it would at least equal and probably surpass the
necessary investment for MF.  The biggest problem, though, is figuring out
how I would scan 8x10 transparencies at 4000 dpi and how I would process
them, since they would require more memory than Windows or any hardware I
possess even supports.

> An 8x10 neg scanned at 1600dpi producing a file that opens
> in PS as 16-bit grayscale is something to behold!

Hmm ... is Portra 400BW available in 8x10?

Since MF seriously spoiled me, I fear going too near LF, lest I be again
seduced by a still larger film format.  Needless to say, digital is just a
dusty memory at this point.  If I ever want to print my own postage stamps,
I guess I can use digital for that, but otherwise it's film for the
foreseeable future.

> Can you imaging the cost?

The cost is the only part I prefere not to imagine.

> The Imacon scanner that handles up to 4x5 is
> something like $18,000US. Don't know about you,
> but that's more than a little bit steep for my budget.

I'm broke at the moment, so most of my shopping is purely thought experiment
for now.

> Go for it!

As soon as I have money again, if that ever comes to pass.

> Those of us trying to tweak every last ounce out
> of our dedicated quad setups, and have experienced
> the frustrations inherent in the process, will tell
> you that that is exactly why we do it...when it's
> right...the results are second to none!

As good as a wet darkroom?

Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example

2003-05-26 by A. Huntley

Hi Anthony,

I attempted to reply to your message 3 times, but Outlook keeps crashing!
Giving up now. I just love Microsoft products...NOT!!!!

Alan Huntley

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Atkielski" <anthony@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Portra 400BW second example


> Alan writes:
>
> > True...learning the "ins-and-outs" of scanning
> > takes some time. I've been scanning MF/LF B&W film
> > for about 3 years now and I'm still finding little
> > ways that I can produce a better scan.
>
> It seems to be a long process.  Now I routinely get good scans, but a few
> years ago, my scans were quite dismal.  Fortunately I reasoned that it was
> my inexperience and not the scanners that produced less than ideal scans,
> and time and more experience have proven this to be the case.  I get
> excellent scans now, although I imagine I'll do better in the future.
>
> > About a year ago, my head was turned by a simple
> > (and inexpensive) piece of scanning software called
> > Vuescan ...
>
> I've tried it (I even bought it, as I recall), but it did not seem to
offer
> any advantage over the NikonScan software.
>
> I usually prefer relatively raw scans, which I then fix in Photoshop.
Apart
> from adjusting things that can only be changed in the scanner, like analog
> gain, I don't change parameters in the scanner software.
>
> > ... after having used Silverfast Ai for the prior
> > two years.
>
> I've heard of Silverfast but never used it.  Isn't that what is furnished
> with Imacon scanners?
>
> > I'm thinking about the Nikon 8000. But, then, again,
> > I'm also thinking I could just skip the "middle man"
> > (MF) and shoot LF.
>
> I've been looking at LF but it would at least equal and probably surpass
the
> necessary investment for MF.  The biggest problem, though, is figuring out
> how I would scan 8x10 transparencies at 4000 dpi and how I would process
> them, since they would require more memory than Windows or any hardware I
> possess even supports.
>
> > An 8x10 neg scanned at 1600dpi producing a file that opens
> > in PS as 16-bit grayscale is something to behold!
>
> Hmm ... is Portra 400BW available in 8x10?
>
> Since MF seriously spoiled me, I fear going too near LF, lest I be again
> seduced by a still larger film format.  Needless to say, digital is just a
> dusty memory at this point.  If I ever want to print my own postage
stamps,
> I guess I can use digital for that, but otherwise it's film for the
> foreseeable future.
>
> > Can you imaging the cost?
>
> The cost is the only part I prefere not to imagine.
>
> > The Imacon scanner that handles up to 4x5 is
> > something like $18,000US. Don't know about you,
> > but that's more than a little bit steep for my budget.
>
> I'm broke at the moment, so most of my shopping is purely thought
experiment
> for now.
>
> > Go for it!
>
> As soon as I have money again, if that ever comes to pass.
>
> > Those of us trying to tweak every last ounce out
> > of our dedicated quad setups, and have experienced
> > the frustrations inherent in the process, will tell
> > you that that is exactly why we do it...when it's
> > right...the results are second to none!
>
> As good as a wet darkroom?
>
>
>
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