Digital BW, The Print

For: Robert Morrison

> There is tons in the archive on Imageprint if you are interested.  
> Several
> of us have tested it extensively.  It can produce very neutral prints 
> from a
> 2200 however the shadows tend to be compressed.

"Compressed" compared to what? On the Epson 7600 ImagePrint prints with 
substantially more shadow detail than the Epson driver and somewhat 
more shadow detail than the Atkinson profiles which are so highly 
thought of by many users. My ImagePrint B&W prints on the 7600 are just 
as good as the PiezographyBW prints that I used to make on the 1160. 
And here is a quote from John Cone, the founder of inkjetmall.com:

> We see ImagePrint as every bit as good as PiezographyBW Pro24 which is 
> why
> it was going to be the engine in Piezography2.

--Mitch/Paris

On 5/31/03 2:24 AM, "Mitch Alland" <malland@...> wrote:

> "Compressed" compared to what? On the Epson 7600 ImagePrint prints with
> substantially more shadow detail than the Epson driver and somewhat
> more shadow detail than the Atkinson profiles which are so highly
> thought of by many users. My ImagePrint B&W prints on the 7600 are just
> as good as the PiezographyBW prints that I used to make on the 1160.
> And here is a quote from John Cone, the founder of inkjetmall.com:

Compared to what they should be.  Compare the shadows to a piezo print with
the quad inks and you will see it immediately.  Antonis and I are currently
in the process of making profiles with Ink Jet Control for the 2200 and its
like night and day.  0.2 higher dmax  (Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl with
photo black) and 1% separation in the shadows.  With Imageprint I can't see
the difference between 95% and 100%.

Robert

Sorry to be dense, but what is "Ink Jet Control"?  Googling this 
turns up nothing seemingly relevant.  (I have a vague 
recollection/speculation it's a Mac RIP, which wouldn't help me as 
Windows user)

Bill Iverson

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 5/31/03 2:24 AM, "Mitch Alland" <malland@x...> wrote:
> 
> > "Compressed" compared to what? On the Epson 7600 ImagePrint 
prints with
> > substantially more shadow detail than the Epson driver and 
somewhat
> > more shadow detail than the Atkinson profiles which are so highly
> > thought of by many users. My ImagePrint B&W prints on the 7600 
are just
> > as good as the PiezographyBW prints that I used to make on the 
1160.
> > And here is a quote from John Cone, the founder of inkjetmall.com:
> 
> Compared to what they should be.  Compare the shadows to a piezo 
print with
> the quad inks and you will see it immediately.  Antonis and I are 
currently
> in the process of making profiles with Ink Jet Control for the 2200 
and its
> like night and day.  0.2 higher dmax  (Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl 
with
> photo black) and 1% separation in the shadows.  With Imageprint I 
can't see

> the difference between 95% and 100%.
> 
> Robert

Bill,

for the moment IJC is for Mac OS only. It wouldn't hurt to let bowhaus know 
there is interest for a Windows version (though they are very aware of it!).


Briefly: 
This is two pieces of software: OPM  (Open PrintMaker) which actually prints 
to supported printers (1160, 1280, 2200, 7000 etc)  and is free.  And IJC 
(InkjetControl) which  makes profiles (useable only with OPM) and costs about 
$200. 
OPM/IJC gives you control over each jet (up to 7), and is independent of any 
ink or paper bundles. You can adapt it to any materials of your choice. Having 
a densitometer is important for accurate profiles, but in a pinch, you can get 
there by eyball if you have an existing good grayscale.  
Currently it is for grayscale TIFF files only. Accepts 8 bit, prefers 16bit and 720 
dpi, but lower dpi (above 360) is acceptable too.

For more info and download:

http://www.bowhaus.com/inkjetcontrol/

Also, we have discussed this here at length, and you can search the archives 
for more details.




Antonis





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bill Iverson" 
<wiverson@c...> wrote:

> Sorry to be dense, but what is "Ink Jet Control"?  Googling this 
> turns up nothing seemingly relevant.  (I have a vague 
> recollection/speculation it's a Mac RIP, which wouldn't help me as 
> Windows user)
> 
> Bill Iverson

Mitch:

I'm just on the verge of buying a 7600 and IP, to be used exclusively 
for black and white, and wonder if you would mind sharing your 
current impressions and set up.  Which inks are you using?  What 
papers?  Is there an issue with the highlights (as a result of not 
using yellow)?  Are there any metamerism issues?  Can you really 
control your tint?  I currently use a 1280 with Selenium Piezotones 
and the Piezo driver on Photo Rag; can you offer any comparison 
between prints from that set up and those from the 7600 and IP?

Thank you.

Chuck Schaible

On 6/2/03 8:28 AM, "cschaible94111" <cschaible@...> wrote:

> I'm just on the verge of buying a 7600 and IP, to be used exclusively
> for black and white, and wonder if you would mind sharing your
> current impressions and set up.  Which inks are you using?  What
> papers?  Is there an issue with the highlights (as a result of not
> using yellow)?  Are there any metamerism issues?  Can you really
> control your tint?  I currently use a 1280 with Selenium Piezotones
> and the Piezo driver on Photo Rag; can you offer any comparison
> between prints from that set up and those from the 7600 and IP?

I'm not mitch, but I've been using IP for about a year with a variety of
printers including the 1270, 1280, 2200 and 7000.

Given your current workflow you can expect, a better overall profile with IP
and the 7600 with the following two problems...dots in the hilights and
condensed shadows.  I find the hilights not to be an issue except for
printing scans of low ASA transparency film or digital files with
significant areas of hilights (less than 15% gray).  The shadows are a more
universal problem for me...and its what keeps me from using IP and my 2200
for fine art work (I regularly use it for commercial work, though).  I use
Ink Jet Control (IJC) for my fine art work. The midtones will transition
much better with the IP/7600 combo than with the old piezo profiles and the
Selenium inks, however.  I might also add that you can get much better dmax,
with good shadow detail with an Ultrachrome printer with Ink Jet
Control...but I don't think it  supports the 7600 yet...only the 2200.  If
someone cracks the chip code and makes empty carts...many of us would leap
to that printer, because its a great machine.  I also believe that Colorbyte
is going to come out with version 7.6 this week...which is supposed to do
something about the dmax...however what they are intending to do with the
dmax is likely to make the shadow problem even worse.

Robert

Robert:

Thanks.  Interesting comments.  What you say about shadow compression 
concerns me, because what I like best about my current set up (other 
than the tonality of the selenium-tone ink) is the transparency of 
the shadows.  (I sometimes think I've actually changed my 
photographic style to take advantage of it.)  And since I'm on a PC, 
it's not likely I'll be using IJC anytime soon, even if I had a 
desire to make my own profiles.  I wonder if I should reduce my risk 
by going with the 2200 and IP; I'm thinking 7600 less for the print 
size than for the quality of the machinery.

Chuck

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Robert Morrison 
<rmorrison@p...> wrote:
> On 6/2/03 8:28 AM, "cschaible94111" <cschaible@c...> wrote:
> 
> > I'm just on the verge of buying a 7600 and IP, to be used 
exclusively
> > for black and white, and wonder if you would mind sharing your
> > current impressions and set up.  Which inks are you using?  What
> > papers?  Is there an issue with the highlights (as a result of not
> > using yellow)?  Are there any metamerism issues?  Can you really
> > control your tint?  I currently use a 1280 with Selenium 
Piezotones
> > and the Piezo driver on Photo Rag; can you offer any comparison
> > between prints from that set up and those from the 7600 and IP?
> 
> I'm not mitch, but I've been using IP for about a year with a 
variety of
> printers including the 1270, 1280, 2200 and 7000.
> 
> Given your current workflow you can expect, a better overall 
profile with IP
> and the 7600 with the following two problems...dots in the hilights 
and
> condensed shadows.  I find the hilights not to be an issue except 
for
> printing scans of low ASA transparency film or digital files with
> significant areas of hilights (less than 15% gray).  The shadows 
are a more
> universal problem for me...and its what keeps me from using IP and 
my 2200
> for fine art work (I regularly use it for commercial work, 
though).  I use
> Ink Jet Control (IJC) for my fine art work. The midtones will 
transition
> much better with the IP/7600 combo than with the old piezo profiles 
and the
> Selenium inks, however.  I might also add that you can get much 
better dmax,
> with good shadow detail with an Ultrachrome printer with Ink Jet
> Control...but I don't think it  supports the 7600 yet...only the 
2200.  If
> someone cracks the chip code and makes empty carts...many of us 
would leap
> to that printer, because its a great machine.  I also believe that 
Colorbyte
> is going to come out with version 7.6 this week...which is supposed 
to do
> something about the dmax...however what they are intending to do 
with the

> dmax is likely to make the shadow problem even worse.
> 
> Robert

On 6/2/03 9:19 AM, "cschaible94111" <cschaible@...> wrote:

> Robert:
> 
> Thanks.  Interesting comments.  What you say about shadow compression
> concerns me, because what I like best about my current set up (other
> than the tonality of the selenium-tone ink) is the transparency of
> the shadows.  (I sometimes think I've actually changed my
> photographic style to take advantage of it.)  And since I'm on a PC,
> it's not likely I'll be using IJC anytime soon, even if I had a
> desire to make my own profiles.  I wonder if I should reduce my risk
> by going with the 2200 and IP; I'm thinking 7600 less for the print
> size than for the quality of the machinery.
> 
> Chuck

Well if I were you I would stick with my current set up until the end of the
summer.  

Imageprint will not get you there if you want shadow detail.  IJC is
supposed to come out for windows...and it will be interesting to see if 3rd
party carts/chips emerge for the 7600.  One excellent solution for BW would
be replacing either the cyan or magenta cart in a 7600 with the MIS
Ultratone "yellow position" gray cart (this would fix the hilights) and then
using the remainder of the Epson UC 7600 inks and then using IJC to drive
it...in my opinion this would be the ultimate black and white machine.  If
you really want flexibility...get rid of the other full strength color cart
(either magenta or cyan) and replace it with the other black...then you
could print on either RC or Matte papers at the drop of a profile!

Robert


> 
>

PS...not that you care if you only do BW, but Imageprint with the 7600/9600
is the Ultimate wide format color printer...free profiles that are really,
really good and outstanding output...that's why I still have it...that and
for doing commercial BW prints on my 2200 with gloss papers.  The interface
of IP is significantly more "RIP-like" than the IJC/Open Printmaker
interface.

Robert

On 6/2/03 9:07 AM, "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...> wrote:

> On 6/2/03 8:28 AM, "cschaible94111" <cschaible@...> wrote:
> 
>> I'm just on the verge of buying a 7600 and IP, to be used exclusively
>> for black and white, and wonder if you would mind sharing your
>> current impressions and set up.  Which inks are you using?  What
>> papers?  Is there an issue with the highlights (as a result of not
>> using yellow)?  Are there any metamerism issues?  Can you really
>> control your tint?  I currently use a 1280 with Selenium Piezotones
>> and the Piezo driver on Photo Rag; can you offer any comparison
>> between prints from that set up and those from the 7600 and IP?
> 
> I'm not mitch, but I've been using IP for about a year with a variety of
> printers including the 1270, 1280, 2200 and 7000.
> 
> Given your current workflow you can expect, a better overall profile with IP
> and the 7600 with the following two problems...dots in the hilights and
> condensed shadows.  I find the hilights not to be an issue except for
> printing scans of low ASA transparency film or digital files with
> significant areas of hilights (less than 15% gray).  The shadows are a more
> universal problem for me...and its what keeps me from using IP and my 2200
> for fine art work (I regularly use it for commercial work, though).  I use
> Ink Jet Control (IJC) for my fine art work. The midtones will transition
> much better with the IP/7600 combo than with the old piezo profiles and the
> Selenium inks, however.  I might also add that you can get much better dmax,
> with good shadow detail with an Ultrachrome printer with Ink Jet
> Control...but I don't think it  supports the 7600 yet...only the 2200.  If
> someone cracks the chip code and makes empty carts...many of us would leap
> to that printer, because its a great machine.  I also believe that Colorbyte
> is going to come out with version 7.6 this week...which is supposed to do
> something about the dmax...however what they are intending to do with the
> dmax is likely to make the shadow problem even worse.
> 
> Robert
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
>

On Monday, June 2, 2003, at 12:44  PM, Robert Morrison wrote:
> Imageprint will not get you there if you want shadow detail.  IJC is
> supposed to come out for windows...and it will be interesting to see 
> if 3rd
> party carts/chips emerge for the 7600.

> If I'm not mistaken, MIS already has the empty carts and chips for the 
> 7600
> http://www.inksupply.com/index.cfm?source=html/9600_refill.html

>  One excellent solution for BW would
> be replacing either the cyan or magenta cart in a 7600 with the MIS
> Ultratone "yellow position" gray cart (this would fix the hilights) 
> and then
> using the remainder of the Epson UC 7600 inks and then using IJC to 
> drive
> it...in my opinion this would be the ultimate black and white machine. 
>  If
> you really want flexibility...get rid of the other full strength color 
> cart
> (either magenta or cyan) and replace it with the other black...then you
> could print on either RC or Matte papers at the drop of a profile!

I would love to try this with the 2200, but still no empty carts 
available.  MIS told me last month that they were expecting to have 
them by the end of May, but obviously not.  I think that the 2200 cart 
supply is also holding up release of the Sundance septones for the 2200.

Carl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: ImagePrint


> On 6/2/03 9:19 AM, "cschaible94111" <cschaible@...>
wrote:
>
> > Robert:
> >
> > Thanks.  Interesting comments.  What you say about shadow
compression
> > concerns me, because what I like best about my current set up
(other
> > than the tonality of the selenium-tone ink) is the
transparency of
> > the shadows.  (I sometimes think I've actually changed my
> > photographic style to take advantage of it.)  And since I'm
on a PC,
> > it's not likely I'll be using IJC anytime soon, even if I had
a
> > desire to make my own profiles.  I wonder if I should reduce
my risk
> > by going with the 2200 and IP; I'm thinking 7600 less for the
print
> > size than for the quality of the machinery.
> >
> > Chuck
>
> Well if I were you I would stick with my current set up until
the end of the
> summer.
>
> Imageprint will not get you there if you want shadow detail.
IJC is
> supposed to come out for windows...and it will be interesting
to see if 3rd
> party carts/chips emerge for the 7600.  One excellent solution
for BW would
> be replacing either the cyan or magenta cart in a 7600 with the
MIS
> Ultratone "yellow position" gray cart (this would fix the
hilights) and then
> using the remainder of the Epson UC 7600 inks and then using
IJC to drive
> it...in my opinion this would be the ultimate black and white
machine.  If
> you really want flexibility...get rid of the other full
strength color cart
> (either magenta or cyan) and replace it with the other
black...then you
> could print on either RC or Matte papers at the drop of a
profile!
>
> Robert

There's talk about the Epson 3000 successor on the Wide Format
list, an 8 ink model with gloss and mat black in separate
channels.

Ernst

> OPM/IJC gives you control over each jet (up to 7), and is
independent of any 
> ink or paper bundles. You can adapt it to any materials of your
choice. Having 
> a densitometer is important for accurate profiles, but in a pinch,
you can get 
> there by eyball if you have an existing good grayscale.  

Looks like densitometers are close to $1k (B&H).  Does it make any
sense to use a flatbed scanner like the Epson 3200 as a 
densitometer ?   In other words, print out your grayscale step wedge,
then scan it in and look at the grayscale values in Photoshop ?

Or does the non-linearity of the scanner make it simply the
moral equivalent of chasing your tail ?  But it seems like with
a standard grayscale, one could linearize the scanner.

Just a thought, John

>>Does it make any sense to use a flatbed scanner like the Epson 3200 as a
densitometer ?  In other words, print out your grayscale step wedge, then
scan it in and look at the grayscale values in Photoshop?<<

The following that was posted on the Epson 3200/2450 user's group at yahoo
might give you some insight:

The following article describes the limitations of the 2450 as a
densitometer (I assume the 3200 has similar characteristics since they are
so similar):

"Using the Epson Perfection 2450 Scanner as a Densitometer with Vuescan
software"
by Alan Mynett

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.mynett/ep2450/2450densi.htm

For: Chuck Schaible

> I'm just on the verge of buying a 7600 and IP, to be used exclusively
> for black and white, and wonder if you would mind sharing your
> current impressions and set up.  Which inks are you using?  What
> papers?  Is there an issue with the highlights (as a result of not
> using yellow)?  Are there any metamerism issues?  Can you really
> control your tint?  I currently use a 1280 with Selenium Piezotones
> and the Piezo driver on Photo Rag; can you offer any comparison
> between prints from that set up and those from the 7600 and IP?

First, I should state that most of my printing experience on the 7600 
has been in color and that I've only made some 11-12 B&W prints on this 
printer using ImagePrint 5.0 Mac OSX version because I left Bangkok, 
where my printer is, in March and am just now going back in two days 
when I'll resume printing B&W. But I do have some conclusions because 
most of the B&W prints that I have were "reprints" of prints that I had 
earlier made on the 1160 with PiezographyBW.

I am using the Ultrachrome inks and Photo Rag. Initially I used Photo 
Black and Epson Premium Semi-Matte paper; this was fine for color, but 
B&W prints showed severe bronzing. I then switched to Matte Black and 
Photo Rag for B&W prints. I found that my prints looked very much like 
my PiezographyBW prints: I did not find any problem with dots in the 
highlights and shadow compression. But I should hasten to add that I 
often LIKE to compress shadows, that my Photoshop files themselves had 
a good amount of shadow compression; and this may be the reason that I 
have not seen the shadow compression problem that Robert Morrison has 
been referring to. I should also state the ImagePrint has the same 
smooth mid-tone gradation as PiezographyBW.

The 7600/IP5.0 B&W prints have been absolutely dead and neutral, and I 
have not seen any metamerism. I like the subtle effects of using the 
Tint Picker, and have mainly gone in the direction of "warm" or for a 
"selenium" tone effect. The results of using Tint Picker are quite 
subtle. If you want to have strongly sepia-toned prints, then you'd 
better print using IP in RGB mode.

Please don't hesitate to ask if you have more questions. If you decide 
to get the 7600 and to try IP you may want to download the notes on IP 
for beginners that I have posted on 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ImagePrint/files/

ImagePrint can be difficult to set up but after than it's quite simple 
to use.

--Mitch/Paris

No, you can buy a used pro densitometer on ebay for about $400.  Look in the
archives for suggestions on models.  Many of us have the X-Rite 810  TR
which was a $3000 machine new several years ago.  I paid $350 on ebay.

Robert

On 6/2/03 1:02 PM, "johngeyles" <jge@...> wrote:

> 
> 
>> OPM/IJC gives you control over each jet (up to 7), and is
> independent of any
>> ink or paper bundles. You can adapt it to any materials of your
> choice. Having 
>> a densitometer is important for accurate profiles, but in a pinch,
> you can get 
>> there by eyball if you have an existing good grayscale.
> 
> Looks like densitometers are close to $1k (B&H).  Does it make any
> sense to use a flatbed scanner like the Epson 3200 as a
> densitometer ?   In other words, print out your grayscale step wedge,
> then scan it in and look at the grayscale values in Photoshop ?
> 
> Or does the non-linearity of the scanner make it simply the
> moral equivalent of chasing your tail ?  But it seems like with
> a standard grayscale, one could linearize the scanner.
> 
> Just a thought, John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> 
>

> Or does the non-linearity of the scanner make it simply the
> moral equivalent of chasing your tail ?  But it seems like with
> a standard grayscale, one could linearize the scanner.


John,

I know many use scanners for color profiling and the like and get 
closer-than-nothing-at-all results. In bw the big issue is not so much 
linearizing the scanner as how far into the black shadows of a print it can 
"see".  The Xrite 810 gives stable, repeatable results within +-0.01 way into 
the  2.00s (i.e. dmax in the range of 2.5 and up). Don't know how a scanner 
would compare trying to see through a glass and all that. In a pinch, it's a start, 
I suppose, but you are likely to get inaccurate profiles with distorted shadow 
separation. I never tried it myself to tell you for sure.

As I see it, with all these densitometers going for a few hundred $ on eBay, as 
Robert mentioned, anyone with a serious commitment to bw printing should 
have one. Even if not to make custom profiles with IJC, at least to verify what  
canned profiles are doing. Printmakers can find themselves chasing their tails 
adjusting the image and breaking delicate histograms just to fight an old 
canned profile.

In the days of the old piezo plug in, I remember trying to print PhotoRag out of 
a 1280 with Piezotones. The results were disastrous with all sorts of breaks in 
what should have been a smooth gray ramp. Inkjetmall advised me to try all 
their profiles until one worked better. Sure enough, Sommerset came in a little 
closer. I found the whole experience good for weekend work, not for 
exhibition-level prints.  So I have come to believe in reading densities and 
making profiles with IJC. It has made a big difference in my prints.

Antonis

what is IJC?

Daniel Elghanayan
Cleveland Ohio

For: Steven Schaefer

> This weekend, I am planning to try to print my first BW photos with 
> this
> printer software combination, any suggestions, warnings, or guidance,
> would be greatly appreciated.

You might want to have a look at my "Notes on ImagePrint Setup for 
Beginners" on:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ImagePrint/files/

--Mitch/Bangkok