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Digital BW, The Print

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Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

2001-09-28 by SKID Photography

Martin Wesley wrote:

> Sadly to say, pigmented B&W inks and glossy papers don't mix well.
> The papers do not absorb the ink and it sits on the surface causing
> the problems you mention.

<snip>

Pigment inks *never* absorbs into *any* paper.  They are made to sit on the surface.  The problem with pigment
inks on glossy paper is that the inks are matte and these matte inks sit on surface of the glossy papers and
look odd.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

2001-09-28 by Martin Wesley

Harvey,

I have to disagree with you on this one. Just put a drop of pigment 
ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact 
point. Paper is an open lattice of fibers and if the pigment 
particles are smaller that the openings in the lattice they will be 
pulled into the paper along with the liquid carrier by surface 
tension.

This is what the all the coatings for inkjet papers are about, an 
attempt to control that flow of ink into and onto the paper. If the 
papers are uncoated the tiny droplets tend to bleed and you lose 
sharpness. With too much coating or a plastic coated paper and the 
ink does just sit there on top looking bad.

The amount of ink penetration into the paper verses the amount 
sitting on the surface verses the amount interacting with the coating 
determines the many different characteristics and appearances of all 
these papers.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> Martin Wesley wrote:
> 
> > Sadly to say, pigmented B&W inks and glossy papers don't mix well.
> > The papers do not absorb the ink and it sits on the surface 
causing
> > the problems you mention.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Pigment inks *never* absorbs into *any* paper.  They are made to 
sit on the surface.  The problem with pigment
> inks on glossy paper is that the inks are matte and these matte 
inks sit on surface of the glossy papers and
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> look odd.
> 
> Harvey Ferdschneider
> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

2001-09-28 by SKID Photography

Martin Wesley wrote:

> I have to disagree with you on this one. Just put a drop of pigment
> ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact
> point. Paper is an open lattice of fibers and if the pigment
> particles are smaller that the openings in the lattice they will be
> pulled into the paper along with the liquid carrier by surface
> tension.
>
> This is what the all the coatings for inkjet papers are about, an
> attempt to control that flow of ink into and onto the paper. If the
> papers are uncoated the tiny droplets tend to bleed and you lose
> sharpness. With too much coating or a plastic coated paper and the
> ink does just sit there on top looking bad.
>
> The amount of ink penetration into the paper verses the amount
> sitting on the surface verses the amount interacting with the coating
> determines the many different characteristics and appearances of all
> these papers.

Paper coating is a *very* complex issue.  My source of information here, about the coatings is:  "Stability
Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet Materials", by, Barbara Vogt, Department of Image Engineering, University
of Applied Science, Cologne

The web address where you can download the PDF is:
http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html

It is a *very* long document (42 pages), and I have not finished reading it.  However, in this document the
chapter on 'coating' speaks to just this subject. The whole point of pigment ink is to not actually be
absorbed by the paper.  If it were to go into the paper, there would be a loss of apparent sharpness.  And
people on this list have shown this to be true.

Your test method: "Just put a drop of pigment ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact
point.", I think is faulty.  By applying so much ink (an actual whole drop, as compared to a 6 picoliter
droplet) you are overwhelming the coating on the paper.  These paper coatings are designed to accept the ink,
and essentially have it dry, as soon as it is laid down.  They are also designed not to swell (like a gelatin
coating), and not to crack.

So again, I maintain (in an ideal situation) the ink hits the surface of the substrate, it never reaches the
actual paper, but sits on top of the paper, inside the coating, which is *very* thin.  Thin enough to still be
considered 'sitting on the surface'.  Using dye based inks is different than pigment inks.

Hopefully, someone else on this list, with more real knowledge of the science involved here can explain it
better.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

2001-09-28 by ternahan

I once was trying to print on rice paper, but couldn't get it to feed. I
wanted a translucent effect so I tried some "architiect's vellum". It was a
translucent sheet of some sort of plastic that truly did not absorb
anything. With great care, I printed everything in reverse, laid the vellum
flat and the rice paper on top of it and got what I wanted. But it would be
easier to put the rice paper through the printer. Has anyone done this?
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:32:36 -0000
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???
> 
> Harvey,
> 
> I have to disagree with you on this one. Just put a drop of pigment
> ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact
> point. Paper is an open lattice of fibers and if the pigment
> particles are smaller that the openings in the lattice they will be
> pulled into the paper along with the liquid carrier by surface
> tension.
> 
> This is what the all the coatings for inkjet papers are about, an
> attempt to control that flow of ink into and onto the paper. If the
> papers are uncoated the tiny droplets tend to bleed and you lose
> sharpness. With too much coating or a plastic coated paper and the
> ink does just sit there on top looking bad.
> 
> The amount of ink penetration into the paper verses the amount
> sitting on the surface verses the amount interacting with the coating
> determines the many different characteristics and appearances of all
> these papers.
> 
> Martin
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography
> <skid@b...> wrote:
>> Martin Wesley wrote:
>> 
>>> Sadly to say, pigmented B&W inks and glossy papers don't mix well.
>>> The papers do not absorb the ink and it sits on the surface
> causing
>>> the problems you mention.
>> 
>> <snip>
>> 
>> Pigment inks *never* absorbs into *any* paper.  They are made to
> sit on the surface.  The problem with pigment
>> inks on glossy paper is that the inks are matte and these matte
> inks sit on surface of the glossy papers and
>> look odd.
>> 
>> Harvey Ferdschneider
>> partner, SKID Photography, NYC
>> 
>> 
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

2001-09-28 by Todd Flashner

on 9/28/01 3:57 PM, ternahan wrote:

> I once was trying to print on rice paper, but couldn't get it to feed. I
> wanted a translucent effect so I tried some "architiect's vellum". It was a
> translucent sheet of some sort of plastic that truly did not absorb
> anything. With great care, I printed everything in reverse, laid the vellum
> flat and the rice paper on top of it and got what I wanted. But it would be
> easier to put the rice paper through the printer. Has anyone done this?


I've not done it, but I believe the best approach would be to tape your rice
paper onto a leader: a piece of paper which does easily feed through the
printer. You might need to create a custom paper size in the page setup
window to get your image to print squarely where you want the on the rice
paper.

I bet your transfer print looked cool though!

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???

2001-09-28 by ternahan

I tried that but the paper is so soft it pleats. The transfer was kind of
cool...anyhow it is something to do with wet ink prints. Another tip for
drying, I put them (the obvioulsy wet ones) on top of my dehumidifier and
they dry in a day or so (unless on plastic)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...>
> Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:01:38 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???
> 
> on 9/28/01 3:57 PM, ternahan wrote:
> 
>> I once was trying to print on rice paper, but couldn't get it to feed. I
>> wanted a translucent effect so I tried some "architiect's vellum". It was a
>> translucent sheet of some sort of plastic that truly did not absorb
>> anything. With great care, I printed everything in reverse, laid the vellum
>> flat and the rice paper on top of it and got what I wanted. But it would be
>> easier to put the rice paper through the printer. Has anyone done this?
> 
> 
> I've not done it, but I believe the best approach would be to tape your rice
> paper onto a leader: a piece of paper which does easily feed through the
> printer. You might need to create a custom paper size in the page setup
> window to get your image to print squarely where you want the on the rice
> paper.
> 
> I bet your transfer print looked cool though!
> 
> Todd
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other
> resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>

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