Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do???
2001-09-28 by SKID Photography
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2001-09-28 by SKID Photography
Martin Wesley wrote: > Sadly to say, pigmented B&W inks and glossy papers don't mix well. > The papers do not absorb the ink and it sits on the surface causing > the problems you mention. <snip> Pigment inks *never* absorbs into *any* paper. They are made to sit on the surface. The problem with pigment inks on glossy paper is that the inks are matte and these matte inks sit on surface of the glossy papers and look odd. Harvey Ferdschneider partner, SKID Photography, NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2001-09-28 by Martin Wesley
Harvey, I have to disagree with you on this one. Just put a drop of pigment ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact point. Paper is an open lattice of fibers and if the pigment particles are smaller that the openings in the lattice they will be pulled into the paper along with the liquid carrier by surface tension. This is what the all the coatings for inkjet papers are about, an attempt to control that flow of ink into and onto the paper. If the papers are uncoated the tiny droplets tend to bleed and you lose sharpness. With too much coating or a plastic coated paper and the ink does just sit there on top looking bad. The amount of ink penetration into the paper verses the amount sitting on the surface verses the amount interacting with the coating determines the many different characteristics and appearances of all these papers. Martin --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography <skid@b...> wrote: > Martin Wesley wrote: > > > Sadly to say, pigmented B&W inks and glossy papers don't mix well. > > The papers do not absorb the ink and it sits on the surface causing > > the problems you mention. > > <snip> > > Pigment inks *never* absorbs into *any* paper. They are made to sit on the surface. The problem with pigment > inks on glossy paper is that the inks are matte and these matte inks sit on surface of the glossy papers and
> look odd. > > Harvey Ferdschneider > partner, SKID Photography, NYC > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2001-09-28 by SKID Photography
Martin Wesley wrote: > I have to disagree with you on this one. Just put a drop of pigment > ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact > point. Paper is an open lattice of fibers and if the pigment > particles are smaller that the openings in the lattice they will be > pulled into the paper along with the liquid carrier by surface > tension. > > This is what the all the coatings for inkjet papers are about, an > attempt to control that flow of ink into and onto the paper. If the > papers are uncoated the tiny droplets tend to bleed and you lose > sharpness. With too much coating or a plastic coated paper and the > ink does just sit there on top looking bad. > > The amount of ink penetration into the paper verses the amount > sitting on the surface verses the amount interacting with the coating > determines the many different characteristics and appearances of all > these papers. Paper coating is a *very* complex issue. My source of information here, about the coatings is: "Stability Issues and Test Methods for Ink Jet Materials", by, Barbara Vogt, Department of Image Engineering, University of Applied Science, Cologne The web address where you can download the PDF is: http://www.geocities.com/mortenryhl/index.html It is a *very* long document (42 pages), and I have not finished reading it. However, in this document the chapter on 'coating' speaks to just this subject. The whole point of pigment ink is to not actually be absorbed by the paper. If it were to go into the paper, there would be a loss of apparent sharpness. And people on this list have shown this to be true. Your test method: "Just put a drop of pigment ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact point.", I think is faulty. By applying so much ink (an actual whole drop, as compared to a 6 picoliter droplet) you are overwhelming the coating on the paper. These paper coatings are designed to accept the ink, and essentially have it dry, as soon as it is laid down. They are also designed not to swell (like a gelatin coating), and not to crack. So again, I maintain (in an ideal situation) the ink hits the surface of the substrate, it never reaches the actual paper, but sits on top of the paper, inside the coating, which is *very* thin. Thin enough to still be considered 'sitting on the surface'. Using dye based inks is different than pigment inks. Hopefully, someone else on this list, with more real knowledge of the science involved here can explain it better. Harvey Ferdschneider partner, SKID Photography, NYC [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
2001-09-28 by ternahan
I once was trying to print on rice paper, but couldn't get it to feed. I wanted a translucent effect so I tried some "architiect's vellum". It was a translucent sheet of some sort of plastic that truly did not absorb anything. With great care, I printed everything in reverse, laid the vellum flat and the rice paper on top of it and got what I wanted. But it would be easier to put the rice paper through the printer. Has anyone done this?
> From: "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 02:32:36 -0000 > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do??? > > Harvey, > > I have to disagree with you on this one. Just put a drop of pigment > ink on a piece of paper and watch it bleed out from the contact > point. Paper is an open lattice of fibers and if the pigment > particles are smaller that the openings in the lattice they will be > pulled into the paper along with the liquid carrier by surface > tension. > > This is what the all the coatings for inkjet papers are about, an > attempt to control that flow of ink into and onto the paper. If the > papers are uncoated the tiny droplets tend to bleed and you lose > sharpness. With too much coating or a plastic coated paper and the > ink does just sit there on top looking bad. > > The amount of ink penetration into the paper verses the amount > sitting on the surface verses the amount interacting with the coating > determines the many different characteristics and appearances of all > these papers. > > Martin > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography > <skid@b...> wrote: >> Martin Wesley wrote: >> >>> Sadly to say, pigmented B&W inks and glossy papers don't mix well. >>> The papers do not absorb the ink and it sits on the surface > causing >>> the problems you mention. >> >> <snip> >> >> Pigment inks *never* absorbs into *any* paper. They are made to > sit on the surface. The problem with pigment >> inks on glossy paper is that the inks are matte and these matte > inks sit on surface of the glossy papers and >> look odd. >> >> Harvey Ferdschneider >> partner, SKID Photography, NYC >> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames." > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >
2001-09-28 by Todd Flashner
on 9/28/01 3:57 PM, ternahan wrote: > I once was trying to print on rice paper, but couldn't get it to feed. I > wanted a translucent effect so I tried some "architiect's vellum". It was a > translucent sheet of some sort of plastic that truly did not absorb > anything. With great care, I printed everything in reverse, laid the vellum > flat and the rice paper on top of it and got what I wanted. But it would be > easier to put the rice paper through the printer. Has anyone done this? I've not done it, but I believe the best approach would be to tape your rice paper onto a leader: a piece of paper which does easily feed through the printer. You might need to create a custom paper size in the page setup window to get your image to print squarely where you want the on the rice paper. I bet your transfer print looked cool though! Todd
2001-09-28 by ternahan
I tried that but the paper is so soft it pleats. The transfer was kind of cool...anyhow it is something to do with wet ink prints. Another tip for drying, I put them (the obvioulsy wet ones) on top of my dehumidifier and they dry in a day or so (unless on plastic)
> From: Todd Flashner <tflash@...> > Reply-To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2001 16:01:38 -0400 > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Bronzing/haloing...what to do??? > > on 9/28/01 3:57 PM, ternahan wrote: > >> I once was trying to print on rice paper, but couldn't get it to feed. I >> wanted a translucent effect so I tried some "architiect's vellum". It was a >> translucent sheet of some sort of plastic that truly did not absorb >> anything. With great care, I printed everything in reverse, laid the vellum >> flat and the rice paper on top of it and got what I wanted. But it would be >> easier to put the rice paper through the printer. Has anyone done this? > > > I've not done it, but I believe the best approach would be to tape your rice > paper onto a leader: a piece of paper which does easily feed through the > printer. You might need to create a custom paper size in the page setup > window to get your image to print squarely where you want the on the rice > paper. > > I bet your transfer print looked cool though! > > Todd > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other > resources as they are often being updated. The page is at: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - Include your full name with your message. > - Include the address of your website, if you have one. > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep > them short. > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames." > - Complete your Yahoo profile. > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various > resources on the homepage. > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >