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1280 or 2200 for BW?

1280 or 2200 for BW?

2003-06-12 by Jack M Kucy

Hi Group,
Sorry this subject was already ON, but not in this decisive form.
I am relatively new to the group.  I am devouring the info... and I am 
almost ready to start my own BW road... I am going to dedicate the 
printer to do all my BW printing (OK - small right now - not bigger than 
13" wide).  I print my color on 1280 and I love it.  Clients like it.  I 
do NOT do color for any art purposes.
The BW is another matter.  So far I have been printing all my BW images 
myself, but I am about to switch 100 % to digital prints since (although 
I consider myself a quite a good BW printer) I already get better 
results from the same negatives drum scanned and printed duo-tones. 
 Next step I believe is to have a dedicated printer.
The question is:  1280 or 2200?
As I understand, most of the BW inks are archival (in comparison - I am 
not sure if my BW conventional prints printed to the archival 
specifications are going to last UNCHANGED  for 100 years or so).  
Of course I am leaning toward 1280 for the price, so I would like to 
hear any advice against with the advantage of another (2200) if there is 
any preference toward anything else.
I work on PC, so the Bouhaus is OFF LIMITS so far.  I will go for the 
alternative.
Any input will be appreciated ON or OFF the list.
Thanks a lot.
Jack

_________________________________________________
Jack M Kucy
JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
917-991-2096     jmk@...
Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
_________________________________________________
...a riveder le stelle




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] 1280 or 2200 for BW?

2003-06-12 by Paul Roark

Jack,

You wrote:


>...The question is:  1280 or 2200?
>As I understand, most of the BW inks are archival ...

There are differences in degree here.  The latest MIS Ultra Tone B&W,
PiezoTone, and, to a lesser extent, UltraChromes are excellent.

The older (first generation) pigmented inksets had some dye in them which
would fade and cause a warm-shift.  (This includes the PiezoBW [now
Sundance?], MIS quad, FS and VM; although the MIS FS-N and vm-s [neutral] do
not warm-shift significantly.)

The second generation pigmented quads do not have any dyes in them, but the
color pigments fade faster than the black pigment, with the magenta pigment
showing the fastest fading in my tests. (Read green shift over the long
run.)

So, the most archival ink that I'm aware of would be the pure (usually
carbon), warm black pigment with no color pigment.  The Ultra Tone with the
warm curve that almost eliminates the color pigments is, thus, probably the
toughest of the bunch.  The PiezoTone Warm Neutral tests out as the best of
that set of inks.  (Note that a black-only Eboni or Piezo Museum black might
tie or even beat these inksets, but you'll have dots and possibly other
artifacts.)

The 2200 uses only color pigments for the highlights, having no really light
gray ink.  Also, the 2200 output I've see uses substantial color pigment in
the midtone grays.  Wilhelm rates the  color UltraChromes at about 70 years
but the B&W at 100+.  The UC matte black and light black, like the MIS Ultra
Tone matte black (Eboni) and light black are much better than even this.
For example, the Ultra Tone inkset in my tests is more fade resistant than
the Epson Archival inkset, which Epson still calls a 200+ year inkset on
their non-US web pages.

>Of course I am leaning toward 1280 for the price,

Yes, there is that -- not only printer but inks and software needed to get
the best image.

> so I would like to
>hear any advice against with the advantage of another (2200) if there is
>any preference toward anything else.
>I work on PC, so the Bouhaus is OFF LIMITS so far.  ...

I work on PC and also have no 2200 for comparison.  The 2200 output I've
seen has excellent tone but some dots in the highlights.

Frankly, the ultimate setup for me would be a full quad and color printer
with individually-controllable inks and RC compatibility.  That just does
not exist yet.  But, when Bowhaus's system is available for PC and Epson
releases an 8-ink printer ...

For now, I'll stick with the MIS Ultra Tones and will set up a 1280 soon.
The vm warm curve for that driver has always been a bit funky, but the 1270
and 1290 drivers and curves seem to work well.  I'll see if I can get a
decent warm curve with the 1280 driver and the current UT inkset.  There may
also be some other options that I'll look at with the 1280 and UT inks --
especially when the Bowhaus PC system is ready.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 or 2200 for BW?

2003-06-12 by Robert Morrison

Owning both printers I can easily say that the 2200 is a far superior
printer in terms of hardware.  The question is when the empty carts will be
available.  The 2200 loaded with a combination of OEM and 3rd party inks
(Ultratones) will be much more flexible, much, much faster and will give
potentially better performance (at least higher dmax with RC papers) than
the 1280.  The question is whether you can wait for the empty carts.  In the
mean time the 2200 with OEM inks gives nice BW prints with Ink Jet
Control...but...as paul mentioned below you are missing a light gray ink so
hilights tend to be a bit more grainy than you can get with the 1280 and a
3rd party quad set.  But don't underestimate the difference in print
speed...its staggering.

Robert
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On 6/12/03 12:03 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Jack,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> 
>> ...The question is:  1280 or 2200?
>> As I understand, most of the BW inks are archival ...
> 
> There are differences in degree here.  The latest MIS Ultra Tone B&W,
> PiezoTone, and, to a lesser extent, UltraChromes are excellent.
> 
> The older (first generation) pigmented inksets had some dye in them which
> would fade and cause a warm-shift.  (This includes the PiezoBW [now
> Sundance?], MIS quad, FS and VM; although the MIS FS-N and vm-s [neutral] do
> not warm-shift significantly.)
> 
> The second generation pigmented quads do not have any dyes in them, but the
> color pigments fade faster than the black pigment, with the magenta pigment
> showing the fastest fading in my tests. (Read green shift over the long
> run.)
> 
> So, the most archival ink that I'm aware of would be the pure (usually
> carbon), warm black pigment with no color pigment.  The Ultra Tone with the
> warm curve that almost eliminates the color pigments is, thus, probably the
> toughest of the bunch.  The PiezoTone Warm Neutral tests out as the best of
> that set of inks.  (Note that a black-only Eboni or Piezo Museum black might
> tie or even beat these inksets, but you'll have dots and possibly other
> artifacts.)
> 
> The 2200 uses only color pigments for the highlights, having no really light
> gray ink.  Also, the 2200 output I've see uses substantial color pigment in
> the midtone grays.  Wilhelm rates the  color UltraChromes at about 70 years
> but the B&W at 100+.  The UC matte black and light black, like the MIS Ultra
> Tone matte black (Eboni) and light black are much better than even this.
> For example, the Ultra Tone inkset in my tests is more fade resistant than
> the Epson Archival inkset, which Epson still calls a 200+ year inkset on
> their non-US web pages.
> 
>> Of course I am leaning toward 1280 for the price,
> 
> Yes, there is that -- not only printer but inks and software needed to get
> the best image.
> 
>> so I would like to
>> hear any advice against with the advantage of another (2200) if there is
>> any preference toward anything else.
>> I work on PC, so the Bouhaus is OFF LIMITS so far.  ...
> 
> I work on PC and also have no 2200 for comparison.  The 2200 output I've
> seen has excellent tone but some dots in the highlights.
> 
> Frankly, the ultimate setup for me would be a full quad and color printer
> with individually-controllable inks and RC compatibility.  That just does
> not exist yet.  But, when Bowhaus's system is available for PC and Epson
> releases an 8-ink printer ...
> 
> For now, I'll stick with the MIS Ultra Tones and will set up a 1280 soon.
> The vm warm curve for that driver has always been a bit funky, but the 1270
> and 1290 drivers and curves seem to work well.  I'll see if I can get a
> decent warm curve with the 1280 driver and the current UT inkset.  There may
> also be some other options that I'll look at with the 1280 and UT inks --
> especially when the Bowhaus PC system is ready.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] 1280 or 2200 for BW?

2003-06-12 by Martin Wesley

Robert,

Just a note. Media Street is selling a CIS for the 2200 so someone has carts
and chips. Have no idea about quality.

http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/mediastreet/n3.tam

I wouldn't go for an 2200 without a CIS myself since I hate filling carts!

Of course the software solutions for grayscale inks in the 2200 are more
limited than the 1280 at the moment but I expect we will see that change
over the next few months. I look forward to things falling into place and
buying a 2200.

Martin
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Morrison" <rmorrison@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 12:08 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 1280 or 2200 for BW?


> Owning both printers I can easily say that the 2200 is a far superior
> printer in terms of hardware.  The question is when the empty carts will
be
> available.  The 2200 loaded with a combination of OEM and 3rd party inks
> (Ultratones) will be much more flexible, much, much faster and will give
> potentially better performance (at least higher dmax with RC papers) than
> the 1280.  The question is whether you can wait for the empty carts.  In
the
> mean time the 2200 with OEM inks gives nice BW prints with Ink Jet
> Control...but...as paul mentioned below you are missing a light gray ink
so
> hilights tend to be a bit more grainy than you can get with the 1280 and a
> 3rd party quad set.  But don't underestimate the difference in print
> speed...its staggering.
>
> Robert
>
> On 6/12/03 12:03 PM, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
(snip earlier)

Re: [Digital BW] 1280 or 2200 for BW?

2003-06-13 by Robert Morrison

On 6/12/03 1:04 PM, "Martin Wesley" <mwesley250@...> wrote:

> Robert,
> 
> Just a note. Media Street is selling a CIS for the 2200 so someone has carts
> and chips. Have no idea about quality.
> 
> http://www.mediastreet.com/cgi-bin/tame/mediastreet/n3.tam
> 
Right, they have had them for a while but don't stock empty carts by
themselves.  MIS has been promising since march, but I called the other day
and they don't have an expected date yet.

> I wouldn't go for an 2200 without a CIS myself since I hate filling carts!

Actually the beauty of the 2200 is NOT using a CIS...you can switch
individual inks so easily.  Not sure whether you have looked at the site on
making easy to refill 2200 carts...but there has been some really ingeneous
work done reusing old carts and the filling procedure should be much easier
than filling the old 1280 carts.
 
> Of course the software solutions for grayscale inks in the 2200 are more
> limited than the 1280 at the moment but I expect we will see that change
> over the next few months. I look forward to things falling into place and
> buying a 2200.

Right,  looks like Windows users  are out of luck at the moment, but IJC is
working great with my 2200...I just need to put in a lighter gray ink and
I'm in business.  The toning capability of the Epson Ultrachrome OEM inks is
great with the 2200...really no need for a dedicated toner ink...just use
photo cyan and photo magenta.

I'm planning the following load:

Photo Black (Epson)
Matte Black (Epson)
Light Black (Epson)
Light Light Black (MIS Ultratone "yellow position" gray)
Photo Cyan (Epson)
Photo Magenta (Epson)
Yellow (Epson) or Paul's new sepia ultratone toner (the darker of the two)

That way you are only having to refill 1 or at most 2 carts if you want.  Of
course if you want to save money you could refill carts from either 9600
carts or use the rest of MIS's bulk inks.  If this turns out to work well
AND the CIS units turn out to be reliable I might consider switching it over
to a CIS...but that's a big AND.

Robert

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