Digital BW, The Print

Peter Nelson wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
>  
>
>>a)    Prohibit sales in-state of printers designed to 
>>prohibit recycling of consumable components (i.e. chipped 
>>cartridges etc.)
>>    
>>
>
>
>What claptrap!
>
>If the goal was truly recycling then Epson could simply be willing 
>to take back the old cartridges the way laser printer makers take 
>back theirs.
>  
>
Which happened in part because state governments mandated their own 
agaencies to recycle said components..

>If you are truly worried about consumers throwing out ink cartridges 
>containing toxic substances then make THAT illegal.   Here in MA 
>it's illegal to dispose of a CRT - contains lead - you have to take 
>it to a hazardous waste collection center.
>  
>
It's not just toxic substances, there are also no-biodegradable  parts 
that simply take up space in landfills.

>Your proposed legislation is typical of the socialists who make 
>policy in the EU - trying to tell companies how to run their 
>businesses and design their products. 
>
No-one is telling them how to run their business, their only saying they 
can't sell it here if theydesign in methods to prohibit recycling.  No 
different in some sense than requiring a recycling surcharge on beer or 
soda bottles.

>  That's why the Eurozone has 
>a 12.5% unemployment rate!   It is no concern of the government 
>whether Epson makes chipped cartridges.   
>
> 
>
No, it's actually likely to ALLOW and encourage competition by 
increasing the actual market for 3rd party supplies.. Just as has 
happened in laser printers and copiers.

If you want to discuss this, please remain civil..

Oh yeah, don't go implying I'm a socialist... I'm actually a VERY 
fiscally conservative Republican.  ;-)

Beyond that, I'm a firm believer that the "Godwin rule" should be 
expanded to include people hurling the epithet of "socialist" and/or 
"communist."

BTW Peter, use 3rd party inks?  But like the market as is?  Bit of a 
hypocrite if that's so, aren't you? (It's ok for some to reap the 
benefits of a market in which the real costs are borne by the vast 
majority buying overpriced cartridges, right?)
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter Nelson wrote:

>  
>
>What claptrap!
>
>If the goal was truly recycling then Epson could simply be willing 
>to take back the old cartridges the way laser printer makers take 
>back theirs.
>
>  
>
Given the manufacturers will already have to design printers to satisfy 
the EU rules, it's simply easier to move in that direction than 
requiring EPSON accept cartridges for recycling..  They'd also simply 
add an in-state surcharge, and we know how well things like that work in 
the internet age.  Not to mention that it would almost certainly doom 
such an effort to failure by increasing the price of inidividual 
cartridges even MORE in any state that undertook such a move.

Making dumping of the cartridges illegal is unworkable and would be 
individually draconian.  The enforcement level would be negligible and 
notoriously capricious..

Be realistic.
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

this is clearly not the case with what chipped
> cartridges are doing.  YOU own the printer, and YOU should be able to use
> ANY damned ink in YOUR printer you want.  What they are doing, in my
> opinion, should be illegal.
>
> Austin

I guess that makes you a socialist then Austin <g>

'printers of the world unite, you have nothing to loose but expensive ink'
as a slogan what do you think?

Julian

I was trying to remember why P.N. Had made my "plonk" list- Now it's all
coming back to me...  Unfortunately.

Bill

on 6/13/03 12:57 PM, Editor P.O.V. Image Service wrote:

> Peter Nelson wrote:
>> 
>> What claptrap!
>> 
>> Your proposed legislation is typical of the socialists who make
>> policy in the EU - trying to tell companies how to run their
>> businesses and design their products.
>>

Julian Thomas wrote:

>this is clearly not the case with what chipped
>  
>
>>cartridges are doing.  YOU own the printer, and YOU should be able to use
>>ANY damned ink in YOUR printer you want.  What they are doing, in my
>>opinion, should be illegal.
>>
>>Austin
>>    
>>
>
>I guess that makes you a socialist then Austin <g>
>
>'printers of the world unite, you have nothing to loose but expensive ink'
>as a slogan what do you think?
>
>
>  
>
I don't think the Bolsheviks would have gotten very far in 1917 with a 
cry of  "Bread and Ink" either...
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Peter Nelson wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V. 
>  
>
>>a)    Prohibit sales in-state of printers designed to 
>>prohibit recycling of consumable components (i.e. chipped 
>>cartridges etc.)
>>    
>>
>
>
>What claptrap!
>
>  
>
<snip>

>  It is no concern of the government 
>whether Epson makes chipped cartridges.   
>
> 
>
>  
>


Ummm. Peter....

I guess I should take it,  this means you won't be making a contribution 
to my campaign?
Keith

 

"Just some guy," and caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
 
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > this is clearly not the case with what chipped
> > cartridges are doing.  YOU own the printer, and YOU should be
> > able to use
> > ANY damned ink in YOUR printer you want.  What they are doing, in my
> > opinion, should be illegal.
> >
> > Austin
>
> I guess that makes you a socialist then Austin <g>

Yes, grin...I'm about as far away from being socialist than you can imagine.
I just don't believe in weasels, and what the printer manufacturers are
doing is weasely, and unethical, in my book.

Austin

Keith,

if this thread was supposed to take out the heat of the
Nikon mount debate you certainly have succeeded.

Nice to see that my email filter also takes out the McCarthy
types.

I think that the national debt is a more important issue Keith,
one day the rest of the world will be nuked to get rid of it,
but that may be a biased opinion of a European.

Ernst

> I think that the national debt is a more important issue Keith,
> one day the rest of the world will be nuked to get rid of it,
> but that may be a biased opinion of a European.

don't worry Ernst, at least we'll be 'free'...

Julian

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Editor P.O.V.

> >Your proposed legislation is typical of the socialists who make 
> >policy in the EU - trying to tell companies how to run their 
> >businesses and design their products. 
> >
> No-one is telling them how to run their business, their
> only saying they can't sell it here if theydesign in methods
> to prohibit recycling. 

Same thing.   It's a case of the government dictating something 
which SHOULD be set by the free market - product design.

If your goal was TRULY to not fill up landfills then all you have to 
do is ban the disposal of these in landfills, or charge for trash 
collection by the pound.  Many communities already charge by the 
pound for trash collection.  (BTW, for 3 years I was the CHAIRMAN of 
my town government's solid-waste committee, so I know a little bit 
about this topic).   But your real goal is . . . 

> No, it's actually likely to ALLOW and encourage competition by 
> increasing the actual market for 3rd party supplies.. Just as has 
> happened in laser printers and copiers.

I.e., to use government power to interfere with and manipulate the 
free market.   But whether there are chipped cartridges, whether 
there are third-party ink providers, etc, is a decision that should 
be made by consumers, NOT the state.


> Oh yeah, don't go implying I'm a socialist... I'm actually a VERY 
> fiscally conservative Republican.  ;-)

You sound like a left-leaning Democrat, to me.


> BTW Peter, use 3rd party inks?  But like the market as is?  
> Bit of a hypocrite if that's so, aren't you? (It's ok for some
> to reap the 
> benefits of a market in which the real costs are borne by the vast 
> majority buying overpriced cartridges, right?)

I always prefer the market as it is if the alternative is one 
manipulated by the government.    Lots of people complain about 
Microsoft's dominance of desktop PC's and want the government to "do 
something" about that, too.   I used to use products by Borland and 
Netscape, and Lotus, and in each case I switched to Micrososoft, not 
because Microsoft twisted my arm, but because they offered me a 
better product than Borland, Netscape, and Lotus.    God knows what 
we would end up with if the government were picking software 
development enveironments, email clients and web browsers!

Hey guys!

What does any of this have to do with B&W digital printing? Please move the
discussion and campaigning someplace more suitable.

Thanks,
Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Austin 

> Yes, grin...I'm about as far away from being socialist 
> than you can imagine. I just don't believe in weasels,
> and what the printer manufacturers are doing is weasely,
> and unethical, in my book.

It is no concern of government whether a company is weasely or 
unethical, if they are not breaking the law.   If the ARE breaking 
the law then it is the job of the appropriate agencies to enforce it.

Over the years the government, at all levels, has become bigger and 
bigger.   It is involved with ever more aspects of our lives, 
regulating and overseeing and monitoring and influencing more and 
more things.

If any of you work for companies or, god-forbid, own youe own 
companies, you know what a burden this is.   Today businessmen can't 
lift a finger without having to worry about how this or that 
regulation - federal, state, local, provincial, etc, might impact it.

And then there's the TAXES it takes to pay for all this!

These regulations and taxes ALL come about the way Keith is doing 
it - one little regulation at a time.     Citizens and taxpayers are 
like frogs getting boiled - if you do it gradually enough the frog 
is boiled before he even knows it.

>
> I.e., to use government power to interfere with and manipulate the
> free market.   But whether there are chipped cartridges, whether
> there are third-party ink providers, etc, is a decision that should
> be made by consumers, NOT the state.
>
>
I'm trying not to answer this crap but inaccurate facts get me everytime.
There is no such thing as a free market. It is a myth. The US, like other
countries, has protectionist policies in place to curtail competitive
imports. The Us bolsters its own economy by, amongst other tactics, ensuring
that aid is spent on US products. The enormous aid to Israel for example has
a large part tagged to be reinvested into arms from the US and a large
portion of the rest for products from the US, the list is endless. I suggest
you check some facts. Many third world countries would love the US to apply
free market measures to itself.

Julian

sorry Martin, sent my post before seeing yours

Julian
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julian Thomas" <julianthomas@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Inkjets meet the asphalt road of Politics


> >
> > I.e., to use government power to interfere with and manipulate the
> > free market.   But whether there are chipped cartridges, whether
> > there are third-party ink providers, etc, is a decision that should
> > be made by consumers, NOT the state.
> >
> >
> I'm trying not to answer this crap but inaccurate facts get me everytime.
> There is no such thing as a free market. It is a myth. The US, like other
> countries, has protectionist policies in place to curtail competitive
> imports. The Us bolsters its own economy by, amongst other tactics,
ensuring
> that aid is spent on US products. The enormous aid to Israel for example
has
> a large part tagged to be reinvested into arms from the US and a large
> portion of the rest for products from the US, the list is endless. I
suggest
> you check some facts. Many third world countries would love the US to
apply
> free market measures to itself.
>
> Julian
>
>
>
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Julian Thomas" 
<julianthomas@t...> wrote:

> > But whether there are chipped cartridges, whether
> > there are third-party ink providers, etc, is a decision that 
should
> > be made by consumers, NOT the state.
> >
> >
> I'm trying not to answer this crap but inaccurate facts get me 
everytime.
> There is no such thing as a free market.

I didn't say we had a free market - I said I WANT one.  Anyway, some 
markets are freer than others so I don't want to reduce any of our 
existing freedoms.    

>               It is a myth. The US, like other
> countries, has protectionist policies in place to curtail
> competitive imports. 

And those policies come from the same mindset as Keith's - using the 
power of the state to manipulate markets.   In the long run 
protectionism doesn't work - it simply raises costs, reduces 
innovation and competition, and encourages domestic 
inefficiencies.   A good example of protectionism was the Warsaw 
Pact countries, which gave us such gems as the Trabant.

> Same thing.   It's a case of the government dictating something
> which SHOULD be set by the free market - product design.

Simple question - why ?

(Bearing in mind we don't have a fee market economy, not even anything
anywhere near it, and never have).

I've read all the comments in the two lists I subscribe to wrt Keith's "platform", and I am amazed by the number of entities who respond to a proposal with labels (Socialist! Liberal! Anti-free-market!), as if that were a proper answer. I know that's how a lot of politics is conducted by the American political parties these days, with the videological sound bite, the short snappy showboat comment, but surely on a list we have a little more room for reasoned discussion.

If the purpose of a free market (assuming for the moment that it exists) is to permit free trade, then a free market must be anti-monopoly.

Therefore, if you're in favor of a free market you must be against the idea of monopolies.

If the purpose of capitalism is profit, then companies must naturally tend to want to monopolise a market. 

Therefore, the only way to preserve a free market is with some kind of anti-monopolistic regulation.

Anybody who thinks the market will handle monopolistic tendencies by natural forces does not read the news.


Nothing abnormal about national trends starting at the grassroots or state level. Keith has posted his platform here because he's been listening to what all listees have been saying about Epson and their cartridges, and that's why it's relevant to the list.

Lil
(American, btw)



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