Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

PosterPrint vs IJC vs ImagePrint vs PiezoBWPro vs....?

PosterPrint vs IJC vs ImagePrint vs PiezoBWPro vs....?

2003-06-17 by Antonis Ricos

Inspired by Phil's review and subsequent thread, I thought I would summarize 
how I see the picture for these contenders to the printing throne. My thanks to 
Phil for the review and to Robert Eversole, probably the only representative of  
commercial RIP software to ever try and answer (our tough) questions on this 
list!

Here is my take then, in an effort  to sort out the new landscape and invite 
comments from others.  I have no agenda to promote, ignore or trash any one 
product in favor of another, but please take into account that this is a highly 
subjective  view, from one who puts emphasis on bw over color,  Mac over 
Windows and OS 9 over OS X - for the moment! 

I have left out the QT RIP, because I am simply not familiar enough and would 
rather let Roy do the comparisons. As for the old PiezoPro RIP, I also have no 
experience with it and simply take Phil's word for it (see earlier messages). 
Ditto for RGB workflows and Paul's curves.  There is probably other software 
options that I left out, too, just because they are not in my radar at the moment. 
So here goes...

Scenario A : For those with 9000/9500 printers wanting support for color as 
well as bw, there are 2 serious options to choose from: ImagePrint and 
StudioPrint (or PosterPrint, which is the same thing with Postscript). The old 
PiezoBWProRIP has many happy users, but it's time to rethink whether being 
able to linearize on the fly isn't too big a deal to pass up.

IP does a great job in color with their proprietary RGB workflow and they are 
willing to profile papers for you as long as they support the (mostly OEM) 
inkset . They do an OK job with mono but with the major limitation that they 
have to make a recipe for an inkset based on fixed ink-loading order, and then 
provide profiles for you. Yes, they support both platforms, but I'll count that as 
secondary here. End results have to count for more than the operating system.

PP may or may not keep up with IP for color: One of the arguments Colorbyte 
always insists on is that they take over the RGB>CMYK conversion internally 
because they can do tricks that a mere mortal couldn't, even with a fancy 
profiling package. I simply don't have an opinion on that, but believe those 
who say they are happy with how their images match from screen to paper 
with IP (mostly photographers, not prepress types) . 
However, I equally believe in the notion of having CMYK control in my hands, 
with my own custom profiles and the ability to linearize a device before a print 
job. In that respect, I would probably choose PP for color, though the choice is 
not  so clear without a lot of testing.  However, color is not my primary 
objective here.

Considering that PP not only supports the 9000-series but offers monochrome 
linearization as well, I'd call it the winning solution for those sizes - and be 
willing to learn Windows XP for it. It would seem the best bang for the buck 
when both color and bw are needed.

Scenario B: For those with 7000-series machines: The above comparisons 
still apply between IP and PP.  However, here enters IJC/OPM, a solution that 
costs a small fraction of the others' price and supports the 7000 with print 
lengths up to 36".  A 24x36 is a respectable size for many uses. But here are 
the trade offs:

- PP makes data entry a snap with the EyeOne; with IJC you have to enter 26 
density values manually. 

- Both PP and IJC allow you to mix inksets such as Selenium, Sepia, Warm  
Neutral etc and pick which jets to use, thus allowing split toning (see Robert 
Eversole's earlier message). 

-Only  IJC allows you to use a toner ink to run across the whole scale 
unpartitioned. For example you can make a gray scale out of 3 grays and a 
black, then run, say, an orange ink anywhere across the whole scale "on top" 
of the partitioned gray inks.

- Only IJC allows you to control the shape of each ink curve and gives you fine 
control of undercolor removal (a prepress term used to mean that it lets you 
control how much of the grays will run at the same time, especially under the 
black). This can have a big impact on achieving high dmax numbers with 
pigment inks. The more grays that run under the black, the lower the dmax.  Of 
course, this control comes at the expense of some extra time needed to make 
a profile. For those willing to give up some of that control and pay $1,500 for 
PP vs $200 for IJC, they will gain a quick and painless way to linearize 
on-the-fly (assuming they don't have to do as Phil did to enter 40 points of 
density data one by one!) .

- Another potential benefit of IJC is that because you can linearize manually 
(without using its built-in auto linearization) you may choose how you want the 
final linearized curve of the grayscale to look like (e.g. you may want more 
contrast in the shadows, less in the highlights or vice versa etc). Or you may 
decide to match to its built-in ideal density "aims". Theoretically, you can also 
match your print to your monitor instead of the other way around. That means 
that you get to stay in neutral working spaces in Photoshop (such as 1.8 or 
2.2) instead of bending the image to fit a fixed, predefined ideal of a RIP.  

- PP offers dot gain control as part of the print controls, OPM allows you to pick 
one of two gammas (1.8 or 2.2). But since you have control over the shape of 
the print curve, those are less critical.

- Both allow control over where inks start, thereby optimizing for  different size 
device dots (smaller dots allow you to start the inks higher on the scale). Not 
sure if PP does,  but I think only IJC lets you control where inks _end_ as well.

- The current release of IJC does not support the 7600/9600, while both IP 
and PP do. With mono inksets about to be available for these printers, this can 
be significant for bw printing.

- PP provides some options for dithering, the only RIP to do so in this bunch. 
This seems potentially of benefit since different dithers affect different kinds of 
pictures in unique ways. 

Scenario C: Desktops, like the 2200: IP and PP will probably have to duke it 
out for best color (see above), but when it comes to bw, only IP and IJC/OPM 
are the contenders here. While IP claims some nifty features, such as a slider 
for monochrome tint control, IJC really shines with its blender function and its 
ability to define toners from any of the current or future inks one may put in the 
2200. Add to that the profiling ability and hence the ability to print on any 
glossy paper that Ultrachromes (and soon Ultratones) can stick to, and you 
have quite a winning combination for bw. 

One last thing: a software that supports the wide printers as well as desktops 
makes for convenient proofing, or at least, consistent output among the 
different sizes. As those with the 7/9000 series know, it's not all that much fun 
loading letter size sheets, or even 13x19 for volume work. 

So, someone with IJC/OPM can use a 2200/1280/1160 as well as a 7000 for 
bw. IP supports several desktops as well as all the large formats. PP only 
goes as far as the 2200 and only for color. This forces a whole different 
software for desktop printers in bw, something to consider  in choosing a 
solution.


In conclusion: no, there is no perfect, ideal solution across the board for color 
and bw. If money were no object, I'd want all 3: I'd want PP for my 9000, IJC 
for my 7000/2200/1280/1160 and IP for color on the 2200 (or  a future 7600 
addition). Otherwise I'd choose both IJC and PP, because they allow custom 
profiling and linearizing prior to printing. I include PP mostly because IJC 
won't run the large formats to full lengths and doesn't have the same dither 
options as PP. 

As I said, I am not trying to be objective here, just making a list of the issues 
affecting our decisions and reaching some conclusions that may, in the end, 
only suit me.

And, besides, who knows what else is in store in the months to come..... 


Antonis

Re: PosterPrint vs IJC vs ImagePrint vs PiezoBWPro vs....?

2003-06-17 by Amadou Diallo

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Antonis Ricos" 
<antonisphoto@y...> wrote:
>For those willing to give up some of that control and pay $1,500 for 
> PP vs $200 for IJC, they will gain a quick and painless way to linearize 
> on-the-fly (assuming they don't have to do as Phil did to enter 40 points of 
> density data one by one!) .

Antonis,
Nice summary of options as seen through one's particular needs. The more choices 
the better, as I'm sure listmembers won't ever fit into a one-size-fits-all "perfect" 
solution.

One note to allay some concerns. Even in single patch mode, measuring 40 patches 
with the Eye-One takes literally less than 3 minutes. You just click, slide down to the 
next patch, and repeat. The numbers get picked up by the RIP as you go.

Amadou Diallo

Re: PosterPrint vs IJC vs ImagePrint vs PiezoBWPro vs....?

2003-06-17 by Phil Bard

Antonis,

Let me add compliments for a nice balanced summary...

> Scenario A : For those with 9000/9500 printers wanting support for color as 
> well as bw, there are 2 serious options to choose from: ImagePrint and 
> StudioPrint (or PosterPrint, which is the same thing with Postscript). The old 
> PiezoBWProRIP has many happy users, but it's time to rethink whether being 
> able to linearize on the fly isn't too big a deal to pass up.
>

Besides, to keep continuity with the ProRIP in moving to the 76/9600, one would have 
to switch to R9's product and I'm not aware of an upgrade path for Pro users.

> IP does a great job in color with their proprietary RGB workflow and they are 
> willing to profile papers for you as long as they support the (mostly OEM) 
> inkset . They do an OK job with mono but with the major limitation that they 
> have to make a recipe for an inkset based on fixed ink-loading order, and then 
> provide profiles for you. Yes, they support both platforms, but I'll count that as 
> secondary here. End results have to count for more than the operating system.
> 
One other thing that wasn't mentioned, you pay one price for SP, IJC, R9, etc.  It 
doesn't cost you to add more printers as in IP, which I've always thought was an 
arduous pricing scheme.

> -Only  IJC allows you to use a toner ink to run across the whole scale 
> unpartitioned. For example you can make a gray scale out of 3 grays and a 
> black, then run, say, an orange ink anywhere across the whole scale "on top" 
> of the partitioned gray inks.
> 

IJC indeed does benefit those interested in overall toning options, and those who 
want to tweak curves and partitions.
 
One recent discovery, I was able to get the EyeOne to do continuous scans of the 
linearization patches after finding out from ErgoSoft where to start and stop on the 
strip.  I've also linearized to 60 patches, and have found that the curves are slightly 
different than with 40.  SP is giving about .1 higher dMax than the ProRIP did.

Some of us are encouraging ErgoSoft to add the ability to custom tweak the dot gain 
curve in SP, which would solve some issues in getting legacy files to print with 
uniformity.  It's a feature of their more expensive RIPs, and it's not promised as an 
addition to SP at this time, but we can hope...

I agree with Amadou, its nice to have so many choices afoot...

Phil
http://cirrus-digital.com
http://philbard.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.