Digital BW, The Print

Claude writes:

> In talking to the guy who photographaphed my daughter's
> gymnastics meet, he complains because he has to get his
> $4,000 Canon Eos 1D shutters replaced every 2 months
> because they only last 180,000 exposures. The world of
> digital capture is not the world of film capture.

It sounds like the world of cinematography.  If he prefers the shotgun
approach over careful selection of shots, why not just point an HDTV camera
at the festivities and pull stills from the resulting video recording later
on?  Who needs a photographer?

> Most photographers approach digital capture with a
> film mentality and miss many business opportunities
> in the process.

Maybe they should be approaching it from a movie or surveillance camera
standpoint; at least that's how the guy at the gymnastics meet seems to be
doing it.

> With the advent of digital cameras, taking 38 esposures
> is the same cost as taking 3,800 (I know some California
> photographers that do).

So the only talent you really need nowadays is the ability to hold down the
shutter button.  If you shoot enough frames fast enough, there's sure to be
a couple of images that you can sell.  It's like a thousand monkeys with
typewriters.

> > With the advent of digital cameras, taking 38 esposures
> > is the same cost as taking 3,800 (I know some California
> > photographers that do).
> 
> So the only talent you really need nowadays is the ability to hold 
down the
> shutter button.  If you shoot enough frames fast enough, there's 
sure to be
> a couple of images that you can sell.  It's like a thousand monkeys 
with
> typewriters.

Photography is about selectivity. In this regard you are right. There 
is no qualitative difference in whether you attempt to practice 
selectivity in the field, by waiting for the 'decisive moment', or 
you have to sift through 3,800 shots at home.

At 10:53 AM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
> > > With the advent of digital cameras, taking 38 esposures
> > > is the same cost as taking 3,800 (I know some California
> > > photographers that do).
> >
> > So the only talent you really need nowadays is the ability to hold
>down the
> > shutter button.  If you shoot enough frames fast enough, there's
>sure to be
> > a couple of images that you can sell.  It's like a thousand monkeys
>with
> > typewriters.
>
>Photography is about selectivity. In this regard you are right. There
>is no qualitative difference in whether you attempt to practice
>selectivity in the field, by waiting for the 'decisive moment', or
>you have to sift through 3,800 shots at home.

Please, people! The original poster was talking about event photography and 
selling prints immediately to proud and pleased parents. Although I've 
never done it myself, I have observed it. It is a completely different 
paradigm than taking photos and editing them later for publication or 
submission. It's not about art, it's about business. If you wanted to have 
artistic shots of children dancing, you might well take a few rolls of film 
at a dance contest. If you want to make sure you have at least one good 
print of each dancer available for the parent of that dancer, you are going 
to take several hundred rolls of film at a minimum. If you want to be able 
to take their money and supply a print immediately, you are going to use 
digital technology with specialized computer software and hardware. That 
still doesn't mean that you can just set the camera on a tripod and program 
it to take a picture every couple of seconds. There needs to be a mind 
behind the shutter release and timing is still important. It's not the kind 
of photography that I would want to do, but then I don't want to do 
weddings or executive portraits either. I prefer subjects that don't blink, 
move, or complain about the pose later: mountains, rocks, trees, machinery, 
etc. I mostly use a 4x5 camera for that. You use the right tool for the job 
and you don't denigrate someone else for using a different tool for a 
different job. To do so only shows that you are ignorant of the challenges 
faced by the other person.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Fred Picker used to tell the story that he used an 8x10 view camera at horse
shows - set up at a good jump and made a fair living by selling top quality
prints... His comment was he was the fastest gun in the business - for one
shot.....

(Sorry, I couldn't resist)

Roger

--BIG SNIP--

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Stan McQueen [mailto:stan@...]
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 12:19 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Good point ... bravo!

BC

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roger L Sopher 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:06 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)


  Fred Picker used to tell the story that he used an 8x10 view camera at horse
  shows - set up at a good jump and made a fair living by selling top quality
  prints... His comment was he was the fastest gun in the business - for one
  shot.....

  (Sorry, I couldn't resist)

  Roger

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 01:33 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
>Good point ... bravo!
>
>BC
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Roger L Sopher
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:06 PM
>   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)
>
>
>   Fred Picker used to tell the story that he used an 8x10 view camera at 
> horse
>   shows - set up at a good jump and made a fair living by selling top quality
>   prints... His comment was he was the fastest gun in the business - for one
>   shot.....
>
>   (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
>
>   Roger

Yes, but was Fred selling and delivering the prints on the spot to the 
horse's owners/riders? I think not.

By the way, one of Fred's Zone VI 4x5 field cameras was my second large 
format camera. After the Speed Graphic.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Stan writes:

> The original poster was talking about event photography
> and selling prints immediately to proud and pleased
> parents.

Understood.  But if he managed to sell all 10,000 photos to proud and
pleased parents, he must have retired permanently after that one gig.
Either that, or a lot was thrown away.

> I prefer subjects that don't blink, move, or complain
> about the pose later ...

Alas!  Perry Como is no longer with us.

> Fred Picker used to tell the story that he used an 8x10
> view camera at horse shows - set up at a good jump and
> made a fair living by selling top quality prints... His
> comment was he was the fastest gun in the business - for one
> shot.....

Now there's a photographer with guts, I think.

Stan writes:

> Yes, but was Fred selling and delivering the
> prints on the spot to the horse's owners/riders? I think not.

Probably not, but even if he was, he'd still sell at least as many.  If they
were willing to buy after the fact, they'd be all the more willing to buy on
the spot.

At 01:52 PM 6/19/2003, Anthony wrote:
>Stan writes:
>
> > Yes, but was Fred selling and delivering the
> > prints on the spot to the horse's owners/riders? I think not.
>
>Probably not, but even if he was, he'd still sell at least as many.  If they
>were willing to buy after the fact, they'd be all the more willing to buy on
>the spot.

Oh, I have no doubt about that. Buyers are usually much _more_ willing to 
buy on the spot rather than order later. My point was that an 8x10 camera 
is not especially suited to immediate production of images. Think how many 
more he could have sold had he been using digital technology. But then he 
probably wouldn't have invented the Zone VI and that would have been a 
great loss.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Hi Stan,

That was long enough ago that my memory is pretty fuzzy but I as I remember
he said he was set up to do contact prints on site and therefore could get a
print out before the 35mm crowd could get their prints up.

I used a Zone VI (Wista) 4x5 for many years. Finally sold it when I no
longer had a dark room.

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Stan McQueen [mailto:stan@...]
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:46 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)


  At 01:33 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
  >Good point ... bravo!
  >
  >BC
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Roger L Sopher
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:06 PM
  >   Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)
  >
  >
  >   Fred Picker used to tell the story that he used an 8x10 view camera at
  > horse
  >   shows - set up at a good jump and made a fair living by selling top
quality
  >   prints... His comment was he was the fastest gun in the business - for
one
  >   shot.....
  >
  >   (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
  >
  >   Roger

  Yes, but was Fred selling and delivering the prints on the spot to the
  horse's owners/riders? I think not.

  By the way, one of Fred's Zone VI 4x5 field cameras was my second large
  format camera. After the Speed Graphic.

  Stan

  ================================
  Photography by Stan McQueen
  http://www.smcqueen.com


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 02:08 PM 6/19/2003, Roger wrote:
>That was long enough ago that my memory is pretty fuzzy but I as I remember
>he said he was set up to do contact prints on site and therefore could get a
>print out before the 35mm crowd could get their prints up.

Wow, that is totally awesome! In that case, I stand corrected. 
Notwithstanding, I don't think I'd want to shoot sports with an 8x10. Just 
imagine the size of the motor drive!

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

> But then he
> probably wouldn't have invented the Zone VI and that would have been a
> great loss.
>

He didn't invent the Zone VI (if you are talking about the camera). Picker
was a good entrepreneur in a small niche market, but I don't think he ever
really designed anything that he sold.

tim

Hi Tim,

I think you are largely right although he did have significant input in the
design of a number of items. Fred was anything but flexible or a raging
technophile. On the other hand, he taught me how to read a photograph and to
"see" an image before the shutter clicked which has been far more valuable
over the years. As I recall Paul Horowitz of SETI fame was responsible for
most of the Zone VI electronic gimcracks but often at Fred's behest to solve
a perceived problem.

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Tim Atherton [mailto:timatherton@...]
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 2:26 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)


  > But then he
  > probably wouldn't have invented the Zone VI and that would have been a
  > great loss.
  >

  He didn't invent the Zone VI (if you are talking about the camera). Picker
  was a good entrepreneur in a small niche market, but I don't think he ever
  really designed anything that he sold.

  tim


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 02:25 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
> > But then he
> > probably wouldn't have invented the Zone VI and that would have been a
> > great loss.
> >
>
>He didn't invent the Zone VI (if you are talking about the camera). Picker
>was a good entrepreneur in a small niche market, but I don't think he ever
>really designed anything that he sold.
>
>tim


The history of the Zone VI camera was written up in two consecutive issues 
of View Camera Magazine. I don't have them with me at the moment, but my 
recollection is that he (with others) designed the camera and farmed out 
the manufacturing. Wisner was the beneficiary of one of the manufacturing 
contracts, leading to his involvement in camera manufacture where he holds 
an honorable position to this day. I also seem to recall that Picker did 
bring the manufacturing of some of the later models in-house. I'll review 
the articles and post corrections later, if needed.

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

Stan writes:

> My point was that an 8x10 camera is not especially
> suited to immediate production of images.

Except for contact prints, which has just been pointed out.  That could
conceivably be done on the spot.

Another possibilty would be transparencies.  Imagine being able to sell an
8x10 transparency on the spot!  Just one look would sell the photo.  And
with a compact lab, that, too, could be done on the spot, in 20 minutes or
so.

Polaropid Type 108

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anthony Atkielski 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)


  Stan writes:

  > My point was that an 8x10 camera is not especially
  > suited to immediate production of images.

  Except for contact prints, which has just been pointed out.  That could
  conceivably be done on the spot.

  Another possibilty would be transparencies.  Imagine being able to sell an
  8x10 transparency on the spot!  Just one look would sell the photo.  And
  with a compact lab, that, too, could be done on the spot, in 20 minutes or
  so.



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              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 03:09 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
>Polaropid Type 108
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Anthony Atkielski
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:03 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)
>
>
>   Stan writes:
>
>   > My point was that an 8x10 camera is not especially
>   > suited to immediate production of images.
>
>   Except for contact prints, which has just been pointed out.  That could
>   conceivably be done on the spot.
>
>   Another possibilty would be transparencies.  Imagine being able to sell an
>   8x10 transparency on the spot!  Just one look would sell the photo.  And
>   with a compact lab, that, too, could be done on the spot, in 20 minutes or
>   so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That rushing sound you hear is the stampede of event 
photographers hurrying out to replace their digital cameras and dye sub 
printers for 8x10 view cameras. Next thing you know, photojournalists will 
be trading their digitals for Speed Graphics. :-)

Stan

================================
Photography by Stan McQueen
http://www.smcqueen.com

The more common tool was a 4x5 press camera or Polaroid/Mamiya 600SE rather than 8x10/Type 108, but those were the tools used PRIOR to the existance of dit cameras and dye subs for event coverage. 
Conventional film processing and contact prints were an concievable *option*, but that ain't how it was done by the majority of us that actually DID pre-dit events coverage with on-site sales .... it was done with 3x4/4x5/5x7/8x10 POLAROID.

BC

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Stan McQueen 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)


  At 03:09 PM 6/19/2003, you wrote:
  >Polaropid Type 108
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Anthony Atkielski
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:03 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re:10,000 images (was.....plunge)
  >
  >
  >   Stan writes:
  >
  >   > My point was that an 8x10 camera is not especially
  >   > suited to immediate production of images.
  >
  >   Except for contact prints, which has just been pointed out.  That could
  >   conceivably be done on the spot.
  >
  >   Another possibilty would be transparencies.  Imagine being able to sell an
  >   8x10 transparency on the spot!  Just one look would sell the photo.  And
  >   with a compact lab, that, too, could be done on the spot, in 20 minutes or
  >   so.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That rushing sound you hear is the stampede of event 
  photographers hurrying out to replace their digital cameras and dye sub 
  printers for 8x10 view cameras. Next thing you know, photojournalists will 
  be trading their digitals for Speed Graphics. :-)

  Stan

  ================================
  Photography by Stan McQueen
  http://www.smcqueen.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]