Digital BW, The Print

Jeff..
MIS has their "NEW" Ebony for the black position that should cure any fading
problems you may have had with the "original" black psition co-solvent ink
in your VM set-up..I am using VM Sepia now which uses the same black, and
I'm now in the process of switching to the Ebony..I haven't heard any
"definitive" third party statements on the "Ultra-Tones" as of yet..

Eddie Wiseman
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jeff Magidson" <jef.jef@...>
To: "digital bw group" <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:22 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks


> Hey Everyone;
>
> Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? On the
> MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only available
> in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.
>
> I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly with the
> medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where exposed
> to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree... much
> MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs- the
> warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have heard
> that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves the
> prints do not warm much.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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>

Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the Ultratone
inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more than a set
of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  This inkset
is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I had been
using previously.  You really should give them a try.

Regards,

Bob

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@...]
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:23 PM
To: digital bw group
Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks


Hey Everyone;

Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? On the 
MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only available 
in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.

I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly with the 
medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where exposed 
to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree... much 
MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs- the 
warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have heard 
that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves the 
prints do not warm much.

I have been using the Ultratone inks for some time now and have found 
them to be a significant improvement over the old VM inks. I print 
with an 1160 printer and generally use semigloss papers. The 
following are my experiences with these inks:

1) There is nothing comparable for black and white printing on 
semigloss or glossy papers. Forget about Piezography. The old VM inks 
required an overcoat spray to prevent rubbing off. This is no longer 
a problem with the new Ultratone inks. Personally, I have yet to see 
a digital black and white print that looks even remotely as good on a 
matte paper as on a semigloss paper. Typically, comparisons of the 
same image printed on a matte paper vs. a semigloss paper (with the 
appropriate black of course) leave the image on the matte paper 
looking extremely flat and muddy. I suppose this must appeal to some, 
but I have been surprised that more individuals do not seem to have 
been bothered by the inability of black and white inks to print on 
semigloss or glossy papers. The Ultratones now give this flexibility. 
I have had most success printing on Pictorico's Premium Photo Glossy 
Paper and Epson's Professional Glossy Paper (reasons noted below).

2) Unlike the old VM inks, the Ultratones do not seem to have even 
the slightest problem with clogging. I am using the photo black in 
cartridges (not a CFS yet) and I have yet to experience a single 
issue with clogging. I have left the inks sitting in the printer 
unused for well over a month and been able to start printing without 
a head cleaning (or at most just one). I should note that I live on 
the Front Range in Colorado at 5000 feet and am in an extremely dry 
climate. The old VM black caused so many clogging problems in this 
climate that I eventually had to replace a head on my printer.

3) The new curves Paul has made for the Ultratones on the 1160 are a 
significant upgrade over the old VM curves. I had puddling problems 
with the old VM curves and the new Ultratone inks. The new curves 
solved this issue. Not only that, but they lay down less ink and 
consequently result in markedly improved image quality with smoother 
transitions on the grey scale (Note that all of this pertains 
particularly to my experiences printing on semigloss paper. I am sure 
the same would hold on matte or glossy papers however). On semigloss 
papers, there are now absolutely no visible dots in higlights on the 
1160. It's quite impressive. This was not the case with the old 
curves and the VM inks. In general, my experience has been that 
printing on glossy or semigloss papers is considerably more demanding 
from the system as a whole than printing on matte papers. Matte 
papers seem to smooth out any imperfections, whereas semigloss and 
glossy papers readily show any weaknesses - be it in the printer not 
having perfectly clean heads or the inks not being perfectly 
linearized etc.

All this said, areas for improvement with the Ultratones might be as 
follows:

1) The new curves for the 1160 are just about perfect on matte paper. 
They will need some adjusting on glossy/semigloss papers. I have 
found there to be a large jump between 100% and 95% that can be 
visually distracting. I have yet to fix this. Paul is ultimately much 
more qualified to deal with this than I am. 

2) Bronzing is apparent on some glossy or semigloss papers. I found 
there to be some distracting reflectance issues with the Ultratones 
on some papers. It is not horrible, but it can be an issue. The 
reason I print on the Pictorico paper and the Epson Professional 
Photo paper is that these two papers seem to almost completely 
eliminate this problem. (I should note I'm still experimenting with 
other papers at this time.) Epson Premium Semigloss seems acceptable, 
but not quite as good in this respect when compared with the two 
aforementioned papers. Premium Luster does not fare quite as well. I 
would encourage you to experiment for yourself if interested.

All in all, I highly recommend these inks. They are a vast 
improvement over the old VM inks, and Paul and MIS deserve much 
credit for their hard work and effort and for providing this system 
at such a reasonable price.

Regards,
Dirk Hobman



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BOB KRAMER 
<bobkramer@c...> wrote:
> Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the 
Ultratone
> inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more 
than a set
> of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  This 
inkset
> is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I 
had been
> using previously.  You really should give them a try.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Bob
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@v...]
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:23 PM
> To: digital bw group
> Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
> 
> 
> Hey Everyone;
> 
> Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? On 
the 
> MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only 
available 
> in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.
> 
> I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly with 
the 
> medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where 
exposed 
> to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree... 
much 
> MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs- 
the 
> warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have 
heard 
> that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves the 
> prints do not warm much.

Dick, Having processed fine art prints in a chemical darkroom for over 30 years, I felt exactly the same shortcoming of digital printing on matt papers vs gloss or semi gloss. In my digital printing I have used Epson premium semi gloss, and lustre , with GP inks and just ordered my first batch of Ultratone inks I'm  very interested to know where to buy Pictorico paper.
Thanks,
Alan Zimmerman 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 

  Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:24 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks


  I have been using the Ultratone inks for some time now and have found 
  them to be a significant improvement over the old VM inks. I print 
  with an 1160 printer and generally use semigloss papers. The 
  following are my experiences with these inks:

  1) There is nothing comparable for black and white printing on 
  semigloss or glossy papers. Forget about Piezography. The old VM inks 
  required an overcoat spray to prevent rubbing off. This is no longer 
  a problem with the new Ultratone inks. Personally, I have yet to see 
  a digital black and white print that looks even remotely as good on a 
  matte paper as on a semigloss paper. Typically, comparisons of the 
  same image printed on a matte paper vs. a semigloss paper (with the 
  appropriate black of course) leave the image on the matte paper 
  looking extremely flat and muddy. I suppose this must appeal to some, 
  but I have been surprised that more individuals do not seem to have 
  been bothered by the inability of black and white inks to print on 
  semigloss or glossy papers. The Ultratones now give this flexibility. 
  I have had most success printing on Pictorico's Premium Photo Glossy 
  Paper and Epson's Professional Glossy Paper (reasons noted below).

  2) Unlike the old VM inks, the Ultratones do not seem to have even 
  the slightest problem with clogging. I am using the photo black in 
  cartridges (not a CFS yet) and I have yet to experience a single 
  issue with clogging. I have left the inks sitting in the printer 
  unused for well over a month and been able to start printing without 
  a head cleaning (or at most just one). I should note that I live on 
  the Front Range in Colorado at 5000 feet and am in an extremely dry 
  climate. The old VM black caused so many clogging problems in this 
  climate that I eventually had to replace a head on my printer.

  3) The new curves Paul has made for the Ultratones on the 1160 are a 
  significant upgrade over the old VM curves. I had puddling problems 
  with the old VM curves and the new Ultratone inks. The new curves 
  solved this issue. Not only that, but they lay down less ink and 
  consequently result in markedly improved image quality with smoother 
  transitions on the grey scale (Note that all of this pertains 
  particularly to my experiences printing on semigloss paper. I am sure 
  the same would hold on matte or glossy papers however). On semigloss 
  papers, there are now absolutely no visible dots in higlights on the 
  1160. It's quite impressive. This was not the case with the old 
  curves and the VM inks. In general, my experience has been that 
  printing on glossy or semigloss papers is considerably more demanding 
  from the system as a whole than printing on matte papers. Matte 
  papers seem to smooth out any imperfections, whereas semigloss and 
  glossy papers readily show any weaknesses - be it in the printer not 
  having perfectly clean heads or the inks not being perfectly 
  linearized etc.

  All this said, areas for improvement with the Ultratones might be as 
  follows:

  1) The new curves for the 1160 are just about perfect on matte paper. 
  They will need some adjusting on glossy/semigloss papers. I have 
  found there to be a large jump between 100% and 95% that can be 
  visually distracting. I have yet to fix this. Paul is ultimately much 
  more qualified to deal with this than I am. 

  2) Bronzing is apparent on some glossy or semigloss papers. I found 
  there to be some distracting reflectance issues with the Ultratones 
  on some papers. It is not horrible, but it can be an issue. The 
  reason I print on the Pictorico paper and the Epson Professional 
  Photo paper is that these two papers seem to almost completely 
  eliminate this problem. (I should note I'm still experimenting with 
  other papers at this time.) Epson Premium Semigloss seems acceptable, 
  but not quite as good in this respect when compared with the two 
  aforementioned papers. Premium Luster does not fare quite as well. I 
  would encourage you to experiment for yourself if interested.

  All in all, I highly recommend these inks. They are a vast 
  improvement over the old VM inks, and Paul and MIS deserve much 
  credit for their hard work and effort and for providing this system 
  at such a reasonable price.

  Regards,
  Dirk Hobman



  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BOB KRAMER 
  <bobkramer@c...> wrote:
  > Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the 
  Ultratone
  > inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more 
  than a set
  > of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  This 
  inkset
  > is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I 
  had been
  > using previously.  You really should give them a try.
  > 
  > Regards,
  > 
  > Bob
  > 
  > -----Original Message-----
  > From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@v...]
  > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:23 PM
  > To: digital bw group
  > Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
  > 
  > 
  > Hey Everyone;
  > 
  > Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? On 
  the 
  > MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only 
  available 
  > in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.
  > 
  > I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly with 
  the 
  > medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where 
  exposed 
  > to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree... 
  much 
  > MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs- 
  the 
  > warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have 
  heard 
  > that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves the 
  > prints do not warm much.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Friday, June 20, 2003, at 09:31 AM, BOB KRAMER wrote:

> Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the 
> Ultratone
> inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more than 
> a set
> of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  This 
> inkset
> is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I had 
> been
> using previously.  You really should give them a try.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bob
>
>

Bob, Dirk and Paul:
Thanks for your info and encouragement! I will give the Ultra-Tones a 
try.
-Jeff

Alan,
I was listening to all of these discussions and I am convinced already 
to the
Ultratone inks.  I am setting up for BW right now, so I have one more
question.  I read that Ultratone inks work well with the Epson driver, and
this would be the cheapest solution.  What other software (RIP) should I
consider for improving the printing process - working on Pc? Or it's not
worthy the effort.  I heard so much about the dot gain control and so on.
I would appreciate the advice.
Thanks,
Jack

_________________________________________________
Jack M Kucy
JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
917-991-2096     jmk@...
Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
_________________________________________________
...a riveder le stelle




Alan Zimmerman wrote:

> Dick, Having processed fine art prints in a chemical darkroom for over 
> 30 years, I felt exactly the same shortcoming of digital printing on 
> matt papers vs gloss or semi gloss. In my digital printing I have used 
> Epson premium semi gloss, and lustre , with GP inks and just ordered 
> my first batch of Ultratone inks I'm  very interested to know where to 
> buy Pictorico paper.
> Thanks,
> Alan Zimmerman
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:24 AM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
>
>
>   I have been using the Ultratone inks for some time now and have found
>   them to be a significant improvement over the old VM inks. I print
>   with an 1160 printer and generally use semigloss papers. The
>   following are my experiences with these inks:
>
>   1) There is nothing comparable for black and white printing on
>   semigloss or glossy papers. Forget about Piezography. The old VM inks
>   required an overcoat spray to prevent rubbing off. This is no longer
>   a problem with the new Ultratone inks. Personally, I have yet to see
>   a digital black and white print that looks even remotely as good on a
>   matte paper as on a semigloss paper. Typically, comparisons of the
>   same image printed on a matte paper vs. a semigloss paper (with the
>   appropriate black of course) leave the image on the matte paper
>   looking extremely flat and muddy. I suppose this must appeal to some,
>   but I have been surprised that more individuals do not seem to have
>   been bothered by the inability of black and white inks to print on
>   semigloss or glossy papers. The Ultratones now give this flexibility.
>   I have had most success printing on Pictorico's Premium Photo Glossy
>   Paper and Epson's Professional Glossy Paper (reasons noted below).
>
>   2) Unlike the old VM inks, the Ultratones do not seem to have even
>   the slightest problem with clogging. I am using the photo black in
>   cartridges (not a CFS yet) and I have yet to experience a single
>   issue with clogging. I have left the inks sitting in the printer
>   unused for well over a month and been able to start printing without
>   a head cleaning (or at most just one). I should note that I live on
>   the Front Range in Colorado at 5000 feet and am in an extremely dry
>   climate. The old VM black caused so many clogging problems in this
>   climate that I eventually had to replace a head on my printer.
>
>   3) The new curves Paul has made for the Ultratones on the 1160 are a
>   significant upgrade over the old VM curves. I had puddling problems
>   with the old VM curves and the new Ultratone inks. The new curves
>   solved this issue. Not only that, but they lay down less ink and
>   consequently result in markedly improved image quality with smoother
>   transitions on the grey scale (Note that all of this pertains
>   particularly to my experiences printing on semigloss paper. I am sure
>   the same would hold on matte or glossy papers however). On semigloss
>   papers, there are now absolutely no visible dots in higlights on the
>   1160. It's quite impressive. This was not the case with the old
>   curves and the VM inks. In general, my experience has been that
>   printing on glossy or semigloss papers is considerably more demanding
>   from the system as a whole than printing on matte papers. Matte
>   papers seem to smooth out any imperfections, whereas semigloss and
>   glossy papers readily show any weaknesses - be it in the printer not
>   having perfectly clean heads or the inks not being perfectly
>   linearized etc.
>
>   All this said, areas for improvement with the Ultratones might be as
>   follows:
>
>   1) The new curves for the 1160 are just about perfect on matte paper.
>   They will need some adjusting on glossy/semigloss papers. I have
>   found there to be a large jump between 100% and 95% that can be
>   visually distracting. I have yet to fix this. Paul is ultimately much
>   more qualified to deal with this than I am.
>
>   2) Bronzing is apparent on some glossy or semigloss papers. I found
>   there to be some distracting reflectance issues with the Ultratones
>   on some papers. It is not horrible, but it can be an issue. The
>   reason I print on the Pictorico paper and the Epson Professional
>   Photo paper is that these two papers seem to almost completely
>   eliminate this problem. (I should note I'm still experimenting with
>   other papers at this time.) Epson Premium Semigloss seems acceptable,
>   but not quite as good in this respect when compared with the two
>   aforementioned papers. Premium Luster does not fare quite as well. I
>   would encourage you to experiment for yourself if interested.
>
>   All in all, I highly recommend these inks. They are a vast
>   improvement over the old VM inks, and Paul and MIS deserve much
>   credit for their hard work and effort and for providing this system
>   at such a reasonable price.
>
>   Regards,
>   Dirk Hobman
>
>
>
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BOB KRAMER
>   <bobkramer@c...> wrote:
>   > Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the
>   Ultratone
>   > inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more
>   than a set
>   > of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  This
>   inkset
>   > is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I
>   had been
>   > using previously.  You really should give them a try.
>   >
>   > Regards,
>   >
>   > Bob
>   >
>   > -----Original Message-----
>   > From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@v...]
>   > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:23 PM
>   > To: digital bw group
>   > Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
>   >
>   >
>   > Hey Everyone;
>   >
>   > Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? On
>   the
>   > MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only
>   available
>   > in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.
>   >
>   > I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly with
>   the
>   > medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where
>   exposed
>   > to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree...
>   much
>   > MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs-
>   the
>   > warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have
>   heard
>   > that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves the
>   > prints do not warm much.
>
>
>     


-- 





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jack,
I have not yet received the ultratone shipment so haven't had a chance to print. However, I plan to use Paul Roarks work flow on my PC and epson 1280 and the curves listed in the MIS software chart. At present, there is no curve listed for the 1280 and ultratone, but I understand that the ultratone curve for 1160 will work well.I have not tried any other workflows or curves so unable to list alternate choices yet.
Alan

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jack M Kucy 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 12:03 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks


  Alan,
  I was listening to all of these discussions and I am convinced already 
  to the
  Ultratone inks.  I am setting up for BW right now, so I have one more
  question.  I read that Ultratone inks work well with the Epson driver, and
  this would be the cheapest solution.  What other software (RIP) should I
  consider for improving the printing process - working on Pc? Or it's not
  worthy the effort.  I heard so much about the dot gain control and so on.
  I would appreciate the advice.
  Thanks,
  Jack

  _________________________________________________
  Jack M Kucy
  JMK Gallery (www.jmk-gallery.com)
  917-991-2096     jmk@...
  Member of ASMP (www.asmp.org)
  _________________________________________________
  ...a riveder le stelle




  Alan Zimmerman wrote:

  > Dick, Having processed fine art prints in a chemical darkroom for over 
  > 30 years, I felt exactly the same shortcoming of digital printing on 
  > matt papers vs gloss or semi gloss. In my digital printing I have used 
  > Epson premium semi gloss, and lustre , with GP inks and just ordered 
  > my first batch of Ultratone inks I'm  very interested to know where to 
  > buy Pictorico paper.
  > Thanks,
  > Alan Zimmerman
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Friday, June 20, 2003 9:24 AM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
  >
  >
  >   I have been using the Ultratone inks for some time now and have found
  >   them to be a significant improvement over the old VM inks. I print
  >   with an 1160 printer and generally use semigloss papers. The
  >   following are my experiences with these inks:
  >
  >   1) There is nothing comparable for black and white printing on
  >   semigloss or glossy papers. Forget about Piezography. The old VM inks
  >   required an overcoat spray to prevent rubbing off. This is no longer
  >   a problem with the new Ultratone inks. Personally, I have yet to see
  >   a digital black and white print that looks even remotely as good on a
  >   matte paper as on a semigloss paper. Typically, comparisons of the
  >   same image printed on a matte paper vs. a semigloss paper (with the
  >   appropriate black of course) leave the image on the matte paper
  >   looking extremely flat and muddy. I suppose this must appeal to some,
  >   but I have been surprised that more individuals do not seem to have
  >   been bothered by the inability of black and white inks to print on
  >   semigloss or glossy papers. The Ultratones now give this flexibility.
  >   I have had most success printing on Pictorico's Premium Photo Glossy
  >   Paper and Epson's Professional Glossy Paper (reasons noted below).
  >
  >   2) Unlike the old VM inks, the Ultratones do not seem to have even
  >   the slightest problem with clogging. I am using the photo black in
  >   cartridges (not a CFS yet) and I have yet to experience a single
  >   issue with clogging. I have left the inks sitting in the printer
  >   unused for well over a month and been able to start printing without
  >   a head cleaning (or at most just one). I should note that I live on
  >   the Front Range in Colorado at 5000 feet and am in an extremely dry
  >   climate. The old VM black caused so many clogging problems in this
  >   climate that I eventually had to replace a head on my printer.
  >
  >   3) The new curves Paul has made for the Ultratones on the 1160 are a
  >   significant upgrade over the old VM curves. I had puddling problems
  >   with the old VM curves and the new Ultratone inks. The new curves
  >   solved this issue. Not only that, but they lay down less ink and
  >   consequently result in markedly improved image quality with smoother
  >   transitions on the grey scale (Note that all of this pertains
  >   particularly to my experiences printing on semigloss paper. I am sure
  >   the same would hold on matte or glossy papers however). On semigloss
  >   papers, there are now absolutely no visible dots in higlights on the
  >   1160. It's quite impressive. This was not the case with the old
  >   curves and the VM inks. In general, my experience has been that
  >   printing on glossy or semigloss papers is considerably more demanding
  >   from the system as a whole than printing on matte papers. Matte
  >   papers seem to smooth out any imperfections, whereas semigloss and
  >   glossy papers readily show any weaknesses - be it in the printer not
  >   having perfectly clean heads or the inks not being perfectly
  >   linearized etc.
  >
  >   All this said, areas for improvement with the Ultratones might be as
  >   follows:
  >
  >   1) The new curves for the 1160 are just about perfect on matte paper.
  >   They will need some adjusting on glossy/semigloss papers. I have
  >   found there to be a large jump between 100% and 95% that can be
  >   visually distracting. I have yet to fix this. Paul is ultimately much
  >   more qualified to deal with this than I am.
  >
  >   2) Bronzing is apparent on some glossy or semigloss papers. I found
  >   there to be some distracting reflectance issues with the Ultratones
  >   on some papers. It is not horrible, but it can be an issue. The
  >   reason I print on the Pictorico paper and the Epson Professional
  >   Photo paper is that these two papers seem to almost completely
  >   eliminate this problem. (I should note I'm still experimenting with
  >   other papers at this time.) Epson Premium Semigloss seems acceptable,
  >   but not quite as good in this respect when compared with the two
  >   aforementioned papers. Premium Luster does not fare quite as well. I
  >   would encourage you to experiment for yourself if interested.
  >
  >   All in all, I highly recommend these inks. They are a vast
  >   improvement over the old VM inks, and Paul and MIS deserve much
  >   credit for their hard work and effort and for providing this system
  >   at such a reasonable price.
  >
  >   Regards,
  >   Dirk Hobman
  >
  >
  >
  >   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BOB KRAMER
  >   <bobkramer@c...> wrote:
  >   > Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the
  >   Ultratone
  >   > inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more
  >   than a set
  >   > of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  This
  >   inkset
  >   > is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I
  >   had been
  >   > using previously.  You really should give them a try.
  >   >
  >   > Regards,
  >   >
  >   > Bob
  >   >
  >   > -----Original Message-----
  >   > From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@v...]
  >   > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:23 PM
  >   > To: digital bw group
  >   > Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
  >   >
  >   >
  >   > Hey Everyone;
  >   >
  >   > Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? On
  >   the
  >   > MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only
  >   available
  >   > in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.
  >   >
  >   > I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly with
  >   the
  >   > medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where
  >   exposed
  >   > to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree...
  >   much
  >   > MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs-
  >   the
  >   > warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have
  >   heard
  >   > that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves the
  >   > prints do not warm much.
  >
  >
  >     


  -- 





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know this is for the most part a matter of taste, but I'd like to 
hear what others have say about the difference between matte and 
glossy papers. I say this not to provoke an argument but to better 
understand the merits of each kind of paper.

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dirkhobman" 
<dhobman@h...> wrote:
> I have been using the Ultratone inks for some time now and have 
found 
> them to be a significant improvement over the old VM inks. I print 
> with an 1160 printer and generally use semigloss papers. The 
> following are my experiences with these inks:
> 
> 1) There is nothing comparable for black and white printing on 
> semigloss or glossy papers. Forget about Piezography. The old VM 
inks 
> required an overcoat spray to prevent rubbing off. This is no 
longer 
> a problem with the new Ultratone inks. Personally, I have yet to 
see 
> a digital black and white print that looks even remotely as good on 
a 
> matte paper as on a semigloss paper. Typically, comparisons of the 
> same image printed on a matte paper vs. a semigloss paper (with the 
> appropriate black of course) leave the image on the matte paper 
> looking extremely flat and muddy. I suppose this must appeal to 
some, 
> but I have been surprised that more individuals do not seem to have 
> been bothered by the inability of black and white inks to print on 
> semigloss or glossy papers. The Ultratones now give this 
flexibility. 
> I have had most success printing on Pictorico's Premium Photo 
Glossy 
> Paper and Epson's Professional Glossy Paper (reasons noted below).
> 
> 2) Unlike the old VM inks, the Ultratones do not seem to have even 
> the slightest problem with clogging. I am using the photo black in 
> cartridges (not a CFS yet) and I have yet to experience a single 
> issue with clogging. I have left the inks sitting in the printer 
> unused for well over a month and been able to start printing 
without 
> a head cleaning (or at most just one). I should note that I live on 
> the Front Range in Colorado at 5000 feet and am in an extremely dry 
> climate. The old VM black caused so many clogging problems in this 
> climate that I eventually had to replace a head on my printer.
> 
> 3) The new curves Paul has made for the Ultratones on the 1160 are 
a 
> significant upgrade over the old VM curves. I had puddling problems 
> with the old VM curves and the new Ultratone inks. The new curves 
> solved this issue. Not only that, but they lay down less ink and 
> consequently result in markedly improved image quality with 
smoother 
> transitions on the grey scale (Note that all of this pertains 
> particularly to my experiences printing on semigloss paper. I am 
sure 
> the same would hold on matte or glossy papers however). On 
semigloss 
> papers, there are now absolutely no visible dots in higlights on 
the 
> 1160. It's quite impressive. This was not the case with the old 
> curves and the VM inks. In general, my experience has been that 
> printing on glossy or semigloss papers is considerably more 
demanding 
> from the system as a whole than printing on matte papers. Matte 
> papers seem to smooth out any imperfections, whereas semigloss and 
> glossy papers readily show any weaknesses - be it in the printer 
not 
> having perfectly clean heads or the inks not being perfectly 
> linearized etc.
> 
> All this said, areas for improvement with the Ultratones might be 
as 
> follows:
> 
> 1) The new curves for the 1160 are just about perfect on matte 
paper. 
> They will need some adjusting on glossy/semigloss papers. I have 
> found there to be a large jump between 100% and 95% that can be 
> visually distracting. I have yet to fix this. Paul is ultimately 
much 
> more qualified to deal with this than I am. 
> 
> 2) Bronzing is apparent on some glossy or semigloss papers. I found 
> there to be some distracting reflectance issues with the Ultratones 
> on some papers. It is not horrible, but it can be an issue. The 
> reason I print on the Pictorico paper and the Epson Professional 
> Photo paper is that these two papers seem to almost completely 
> eliminate this problem. (I should note I'm still experimenting with 
> other papers at this time.) Epson Premium Semigloss seems 
acceptable, 
> but not quite as good in this respect when compared with the two 
> aforementioned papers. Premium Luster does not fare quite as well. 
I 
> would encourage you to experiment for yourself if interested.
> 
> All in all, I highly recommend these inks. They are a vast 
> improvement over the old VM inks, and Paul and MIS deserve much 
> credit for their hard work and effort and for providing this system 
> at such a reasonable price.
> 
> Regards,
> Dirk Hobman
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BOB KRAMER 
> <bobkramer@c...> wrote:
> > Jeff, you might consider buying the small 2 oz. bottles of the 
> Ultratone
> > inks and a set of virgin cartridges.  It won't cost you much more 
> than a set
> > of preloaded carts, and they are quite easy to load yourself.  
This 
> inkset
> > is great!  Much better than the original quad and VM inks that I 
> had been
> > using previously.  You really should give them a try.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Bob
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Magidson [mailto:jef.jef@v...]
> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 6:23 PM
> > To: digital bw group
> > Subject: [Digital BW] MIS Ultra-tone inks
> > 
> > 
> > Hey Everyone;
> > 
> > Does anyone know what the status of the MIS ultra-tone inks are? 
On 
> the 
> > MIS web site they are still listed as "experimental" and only 
> available 
> > in bottles. I would like to buy a set in carts to give them a try.
> > 
> > I did make some nice prints with the VM set...printing mostly 
with 
> the 
> > medium warm and warm curves. However, after these prints where 
> exposed 
> > to indirect light for a short time they warmed to great degree... 
> much 
> > MUCH greater then the moderate increments of the medium warm -vs- 
> the 
> > warm curve. For me that does not make this inkset usable. I have 
> heard 
> > that when printing with the more neutral curves or cool curves 
the 
> > prints do not warm much.

The makers seem to have the secret for making good high quality matte 
papers that give consistent results that are pleasing to view and that 
have no major warts.

On the other hand that doesn't seem to be the case with glossy. Until 
this is the case I will stick matte. We are probably a year or two off 
yet and the so called "bornzing" may always be with us since it has as 
much to do with higher ink loads in dark areas than light areas.  

I'd like to see a glossy paper of comporable of say photo rag, EAM, 
etc., and if one comes out I will try it.

Truman

Chris Hargens wrote:

>I know this is for the most part a matter of taste, but I'd like to 
>hear what others have say about the difference between matte and 
>glossy papers. I say this not to provoke an argument but to better 
>understand the merits of each kind of paper.
>
>Chris Hargens
>
>  
>