Digital BW, The Print

Hi,

has anyone used lyson print guard or kamar varnish on Hahnemühle 
William Turner paper before? I'm looking for some coating which i can 
apply to the paper to prevent/reduce scuffing or flaking of the 
paper. So far only lyson print guard and krylon "Kamar" varnish seems 
to be available here in singapore. I've read some posts mentioning 
applying hydrocote with a mayer rod to matt papers as a good solution 
but these aren't available here.


Thanks

Derrick

Hi Derrick,

I have used Krylon Workable Fixativ and Krylon UV Resistant Clear. I suspect
that any of the fixatives designed for pastels might do.

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Derrick [mailto:chooyeon@singnet.com.sg]
  Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2003 11:37 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] Lyson Print Guard or Krylon Kamar on Hahnemühle WT?


  Hi,

  has anyone used lyson print guard or kamar varnish on Hahnemühle
  William Turner paper before? I'm looking for some coating which i can
  apply to the paper to prevent/reduce scuffing or flaking of the
  paper. So far only lyson print guard and krylon "Kamar" varnish seems
  to be available here in singapore. I've read some posts mentioning
  applying hydrocote with a mayer rod to matt papers as a good solution
  but these aren't available here.


  Thanks

  Derrick


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I have used Krylon Workable Fixativ and Krylon UV Resistant Clear. I
suspect
> that any of the fixatives designed for pastels might do.

So, does anyone know what all these various sprays and coatings
that are proposed here will do to print longevity ?  Obviously
they provide protection to the paper and inks themselves, but
what about the longevity of the spray coating itself ?  Seems
like yellowing and possible cracking could be a serious issue
and reduce the effective life-time of the print well below what
good pigment inks on an acid-free paper would otherwise allow.

I realize that increasing longevity is probably not the main
reason people apply coatings - rather it's to increase DMax,
in the case of Hydrocote PUR on matte papers, or to reduce
bronzing, in the case of the Kamar and Lyson products on RC
papers.  But is it worth it, if longevity suffers ?

Just a thought, John

Hi John,

The products produced for the pastel trade are considered "archival" and are
used to stabilize those fragile  surfaces. I don't recall the source at the
moment but I recall reading that museum conservators routinely coat pastels
with such sprays. My wife, a professional artist,  uses them a lot when she
is working with pastels.

Paul Roark has posted a number of experiments he has done with print coating
with a number of products and if my memory serves me correctly ran archival
tests as well.

I printed a pair of step wedges on a number of papers and sprayed one with
whatever I was testing and left the other dry. After a couple of weeks in
the New Mexico sun I found very little change in the densitometric readings,
particularly the paper white; so as far as that crude experiment goes it
doesn't seem yellowing due to the coating is liable to be a problem. The
downside to their use in my view is the fairly unpredictable darkening of
the black pigment. The dmax will increase but the darker grays do so as well
and it isn't completely linear. I got so that I could predict how a
particular print would act and then adjust in photoshop so that the sprayed
version looked pretty much as I wished it to but it is hit or miss to some
extent. I finally decided it wasn't worth the effort even though it did
protect the surface nicely. Now if I get a flaked off spot I return to the
ancient darkroom method of hand spotting - argghhhh....

Roger

  -----Original Message-----
  From: johngeyles [mailto:jge@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 12:36 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Lyson Print Guard or Krylon Kamar on Hahnemühle
WT?



  > I have used Krylon Workable Fixativ and Krylon UV Resistant Clear. I
  suspect
  > that any of the fixatives designed for pastels might do.

  So, does anyone know what all these various sprays and coatings
  that are proposed here will do to print longevity ?  Obviously
  they provide protection to the paper and inks themselves, but
  what about the longevity of the spray coating itself ?  Seems
  like yellowing and possible cracking could be a serious issue
  and reduce the effective life-time of the print well below what
  good pigment inks on an acid-free paper would otherwise allow.

  I realize that increasing longevity is probably not the main
  reason people apply coatings - rather it's to increase DMax,
  in the case of Hydrocote PUR on matte papers, or to reduce
  bronzing, in the case of the Kamar and Lyson products on RC
  papers.  But is it worth it, if longevity suffers ?

  Just a thought, John



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  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>   So, does anyone know what all these various sprays and coatings
>   that are proposed here will do to print longevity ? 

Try this interesting page:

http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2a.htm

>   So, does anyone know what all these various sprays and coatings
>   that are proposed here will do to print longevity ?

Here is what one authority said:

Ross Merrill, Chief of Conservation at the National Gallery of Art,
Washington D.C. (USA), in a 1997 speech regarding pastel conservation said
as follows regarding fixatives:

"Today there are a number of alternatives. Krylon Acrylic Varnish B72 is
used by conservators. This product will remain unchanged for 400 years, but
does have a tendency to saturate the surface. Grumbacher B77 varnish or
"tough film" is the same as B72, but will not saturate. Krylon workable
fixative and Sennelier fixative are both good products. One should stay away
from Grumbacher's "blue label" fixative."
See <http://www.bmi.net/knapp/iapsmerrill.html>

Rohm & Haas's Acryloid/Paraloid B72 formula is widely accepted as archival,
if for no other reason than it has been around for a long time.  Although
Krylon's B72 is not available any more (probably since Sherwin & Williams
bought the company and decided not to pay royalties), some of the Krylon
products may be very close to it.

Grumbacher "Tuffilm" is widely available at art stores and not too
expensive.  Lascaux Fixativ is the real B72 but is rare and expensive.
Krylon is the cheapest of the bunch, from what I can see.

In my fade tests, a light acrylic coating has had no significant effect.  If
applied heavily, I find the dynamic range of the print to be shortened.

We can never be sure what interactions may occur over the long haul, but my
feelings are that a light spray may be a good idea for physically protecting
the pigments somewhat from abrasion.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks for all the replies. Krylon products aren't in stock till next 
month over here. The only fixative for pastels that i found and 
bought in the art supply shop was Daler-Rowney Perfix Colourless 
Fixative for Pastels. I've tried spraying 1 print. What do i look out 
for to see that its working or providing better protection for the 
surface? There does not seem to be any noticable difference. 

I probably need to get a face mask. A few whiffs of the spray and i 
was feeling a bit woozy.


Derrick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roger L Sopher" 
<rlsopher@c...> wrote:
> Hi Derrick,
> 
> I have used Krylon Workable Fixativ and Krylon UV Resistant Clear. 
I suspect

> that any of the fixatives designed for pastels might do.
> 
> Roger

> I've tried spraying 1 print. What do i look out 
> for to see that its working or providing better protection for the 
> surface? 


Derrick,

you can test for abrasion after the coating has dryed. Better yet, you can make 
two prints, coat one and put both in the sun and then watch what happens. If 
you have a densitometer, take readings of the white, black and some gray 
midpoints and see if they shift over time in a different manner for the coated vs 
uncoated prints.



> I probably need to get a face mask. A few whiffs of the spray and i 
> was feeling a bit woozy.

Not to make light of it, but if you are in Singapore there should be plenty of 
those around. Seriously, don't  breathe the stuff. Work outside if you can 
because the spray may remain suspended longer than you think (unless you 
have a spray booth with active exhaust ventilation).
If you can find a satisfactory way to coat by rod or foam brush, choose it over 
spray. We have had extensive discussions on all this here, so maybe you can 
dig up some info in the list archives.

Antonis