Digital BW, The Print

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003, deandadin wrote:
> 
> When I store a B&W file from 
> Photoshop I have to store the file as RGB. If I dont do this when I 
> open a file in Imageprint it separates the image into 3 images and 
> tries to create separations of the image.

Steve,

I've never seen that behavior before with IP.  I have noticed that I get better B&W prints from IP though when I use grayscale files than when I use RGB and print with the gray profiles.

I have a few questions about your setup if you don't mind...

What OS and version of IP are you running?

How are you converting to B&W in photoshop?  Are you converting to grayscale or perhaps using a duotone conversion?

What file format are you saving in?  psd?  tif?

What are your settings on the system and bitmap tabs of the color management dialog box in IP?

In the IP install directory, there should be a file named ip_config.  What are the contents of that file?

--Tom

Hello Tom, Thanks for the interest. I use a pc with windows 2000 pro and 
Imageprint 5.5 and I save in a tif. I am scanning with an Imacon scanner so the 
files go into Photoshop as an RGB  file from the Imacon. As I understand my 
system I have to store everything in RGB. My bit map tabs are RGB adobe RGB 1998, 
CMYK generic(Japan) STD proofing, Lab device independent lab, Embedded prompt, 
Grey is as I choose the profile as I print. I tried to call up the Install 
directory IP-config contents but a notice comes up that says that the file is 
inaccessable for several reasons. Im not sure if I have a problem or not. When I 
print B&W using the enhanced matte paper the prints are very neuteral. But I 
always wonderd why I had to use RGB for going into Imageprint for B&W. Thanks 
for the interest, let me know. Steve 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My Bitmap tab settings are the same as yours except CMYK is None, and Gray is Gray Gamma 2.2.  These settings do not change from image to image.  The place you pick your printing profile is in the System tab.  In the System tab my settings are System Adobe RGB (1998), Printer is where I select the printing profile, be it gray or color,  Proofer is none, and Proofer is Perceptual.  The only things on the entire Color Management screen that I change are the Printer profile and the Adjust Black Point.
 
Try those settings with a b&w image saved in grayscale.  
 
As I understand it, the Bitmap and Vector are input file descriptions, while the System tab are the output (printer) profile settings.  For most of us, the only settings on the Bitmap tab that are useful are the RGB and the Gray profiles.  This is because most of us to not deal with CMYK or LAB files.  And we don't typically have any vector files, so the vector settings are irrelevant.  So, the fact that you are changing you Gray profile setting on the Bitmap tab with each image may be the source of your problem.
 
Since I control my profiles from end-to-end in my process I only need to change my printer profile on the System tab to reflect the paper and viewing conditions of the final print.
 
Give that a try.  Good luck.  
 
Tom Baker

deandadin@... wrote:
Hello Tom, Thanks for the interest. I use a pc with windows 2000 pro and 
Imageprint 5.5 and I save in a tif. I am scanning with an Imacon scanner so the 
files go into Photoshop as an RGB  file from the Imacon. As I understand my 
system I have to store everything in RGB. My bit map tabs are RGB adobe RGB 1998, 
CMYK generic(Japan) STD proofing, Lab device independent lab, Embedded prompt, 
Grey is as I choose the profile as I print. I tried to call up the Install 
directory IP-config contents but a notice comes up that says that the file is 
inaccessable for several reasons. Im not sure if I have a problem or not. When I 
print B&W using the enhanced matte paper the prints are very neuteral. But I 
always wonderd why I had to use RGB for going into Imageprint for B&W. Thanks 
for the interest, let me know. Steve 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

At 00:57 -0400 26.9.2003, deandadin@... wrote:
*******************************************

> As I understand my
>system I have to store everything in RGB.


> But I
>always wonderd why I had to use RGB for going into Imageprint for B&W. Thanks
>for the interest, let me know. Steve

There are many methods how to convert RGB files to greyscale - from 
simple Change mode in Photoshop, through Channel mixer method, 
Hue&Saturation method, ... , to several actions and plugins. You may 
find all infos in archive of conference.

There is no any reason to stay in RGB to print greyscale images.

More - what is not possible with RGB - you may very easy "calibrate" 
your Photoshop to show grayscale images exactly as they are printed 
using modification of "Custom dot gain" curve in Color preferences.

So way to use RGB files for final greyscale prints in IP?

Martin
--

----- Original Message ----- 

From: <deandadin@...>


> My bit map tabs are RGB adobe RGB 1998,
> CMYK generic(Japan) STD proofing, Lab device independent lab, Embedded
prompt,
> Grey is as I choose the profile as I print.

I tried your settings, and the image appeared three times, although
compressed.  I think this is what you were seeing with grayscale files.  It
does look like it is doing color seps.  Anyway, I believe this is related to
the fact that colorbyte's "gray" profiles are not real ICC profiles.  They
follow the file format but contain only a single table of proprietary
information.  This is also why they cannot be used to softproof in Photoshop
and you have to resort to the technique outlined by Mitch.  Their color
profiles though are standard.  The profiles set on the Bitmap tab need to be
real ICC profiles.  Here's how I print grayscale with IP.  Give it a try and
see if it works for you.

My settings agree with Tom Baker's.

In my bitmap tab, I have Gray set to "Gray Gamma 2.2/Perceptual".  This
setting tells IP what source profile to assume an image is if the file isn't
already tagged.

For Embedded, I have mine set to "Apply/Perceptual".  This setting tells IP
when I load an image to honor any source profile it is tagged with.  This
could also be set to "Prompt."  In which case IP will ask you if you want to
use the file's embedded profile or the default you've set up.  I always use
the embedded one.  It seems to me that untagged images and default profiles
could lead to trouble (or at least inconsistent results.)

In Photoshop, once I've converted the image to grayscale, I always tag it
with the Gray Gamma 2.2 profile.  This usually happens automatically for me
once I convert to grayscale since my gray working space is set to Gray Gamma
2.2.

Then I load the file in IP and on the System tab, I set Printer Profile to
one of colorbyte's gray profiles which then enableds the tint picker.

Give that a shot and see if it allows you to print grayscale files.

--Tom

In the middle of the night last night I realized that I left off what may be THE critical piece of info.  When you load an image into Imageprint are you selecting 'yes' or 'no' when it asks if you want to use the imbeded profile.  Here's the deal.  If, in the Gray field in the Bitmap tab, have a gray printer profile selected, and select 'no' when your gray file is loaded, you will get three, what might be viewed as, seperation images.  If you have either Gray Gamma 2.2 or Gray Gamma 1.8 selected, this doesn't happen (I'm not sure why).  When you select 'no', you are telling Imageprint to use the Bitmap/Vector (depending on you input file type) to use the default settings which are in those two tabs.  If you select 'yes' you are telling it to use the profile imbeded in the image file.  By having the imbeded profile in you grayscale files always set to Gammma 2.2 or 1.8 (or something similar), and then selecting 'yes' when the image loads, you will avoid any problems with the Bitmap
 tab settings. 
 
If you didn't try this yet, give it a try.  I believe that it will solve you problem.
 
Tom Baker
 
deandadin@... wrote:
Hello Tom, Thanks for the interest. I use a pc with windows 2000 pro and 
Imageprint 5.5 and I save in a tif. I am scanning with an Imacon scanner so the 
files go into Photoshop as an RGB  file from the Imacon. As I understand my 
system I have to store everything in RGB. My bit map tabs are RGB adobe RGB 1998, 
CMYK generic(Japan) STD proofing, Lab device independent lab, Embedded prompt, 
Grey is as I choose the profile as I print. I tried to call up the Install 
directory IP-config contents but a notice comes up that says that the file is 
inaccessable for several reasons. Im not sure if I have a problem or not. When I 
print B&W using the enhanced matte paper the prints are very neuteral. But I 
always wonderd why I had to use RGB for going into Imageprint for B&W. Thanks 
for the interest, let me know. Steve 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Thomas Fors
<tom@f...> wrote:

> I've never seen that behavior before with IP.  I have noticed that I
get better B&W prints from IP though when I use grayscale files than
when I use RGB and print with the gray profiles.

Better meaning more neutral, or in some other way?

--John

For: John Hollenberg

>   The reason
> I ask is that Andrew Rodney on Imaging Revue web site told me that
> there was no advantage to grayscale for IP..

Really? I though that the advantage was that grayscale does not use the 
yellow ink which reduces metamerism.

--Mitch/Paris

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Mitch Alland
<malland@x> wrote:
> For: John Hollenberg
> 
> >   The reason
> > I ask is that Andrew Rodney on Imaging Revue web site told me that
> > there was no advantage to grayscale for IP..
> 
> Really? I though that the advantage was that grayscale does not use
the 
> yellow ink which reduces metamerism.

Let's be clear here.  Of course there is an advantage to using the
GRAY profiles.  What Andrew was saying is that there is no advantage
to converting image to grayscale from RGB before bringing into IP. 
The RGB  image must be in B&W, of course, but the associated profile
can still be Adobe 1998 or whatever.  When I said there was no
difference in prints, I was comparing these two workflows:

1) Take color image and convert to B&W using Convert to B&W Pro Plugin
2) At this point, image is still tagged with Adobe RGB
3) For first method, print this file in IP using gray profile
4) For second method, convert to gray gamma 2.2 in Photoshop, then
   print in IP using gray profile

I believe Andrew was saying (but I don't know if it is true) is that
if you convert to gray gamma 2.2 in Photoshop first the "Black Point
Adjust" slider doesn't function in IP.

--John